is there any interest in a turbo kit?

[TT440]

This has been mentioned before and now it's come up again. This time, I've rubbed a few brain cells together and came up with a list of possibles. In my mind, this is what an initial offering would look like. All parts would be NEW stuff, not salvage yard pieces purtied up and sold.
Remember that it would be a bit tricky to offer a kit for each kind of car. Some vehicles may require modification the the inner fenders and/or core support for easier plumbing.
In essence... most folks would get a pair of turbos, wastegates, headers, various flanges, appropriate gaskets, carb bonnet, air filters, and a fuel pressure regulator. Maybe a pump. Other small parts might get added upon request.
There would be plenty of assembly required.
The customer would need to supply the following: DIY (Do-It-Yourself) piping from header to turbo, DIY downpipes, oil feed and return lines, air inlet piping, carburetor, fuel pump (maybe), and anything else I've left out.

Headers are the first big thing. I could have iron manifolds modified or build regular headers. The headers would probably be rather short and require a user supplied pipe to connect the turbos. A single turbo system would be possible on small block cars.
Then, you look at the turbos. The B engines could probably use the same turbos, but the 440 requires a larger pair. Same goes with the small blocks. The 340/360 could probably use the same units but a 318 would like something a little smaller.
Then you get into carburetors. It would probably be best for me to suggest a carb builder or form of alternate injection. Let's not even venture into EFI. I could supply a good variable pressure regulator. Fuel pumps could either be suggested or provided.
The real kick in the shorts is exhaust. If you've seen the TT440 page, then you realize that I've got the exhaust "downpipe" going over one header. It would be different on each car. The best I could do would be offering the flanges and leave the design to the individuals.
Wastegates would probably be integral unless otherwise specified. External wastegates would be substantially higher.
I know I would be able to get the turbos and hardware at good prices. The turbos would be newly built custom sized units. Wastegates would be built for the customer's request and could be modified later by a user installed boost controller.
The turbos and wastegates would carry a manuacturer's warranty (local-to-me company) but the only thing I could offer on the headers would be a fix-it if they fail. Intercoolers and piping would be left to the user.
I would need to brush up on the welding skills.

A couple interesting points... If the headers fit my hot rod, they should fit almost any 63-74 big block car. On small blocks, if I could get the headers to fit the '87 cop car (smog pump, PS, AC, big alternator) then they should fit nearly anything.


Well, there ya is. Now, you tell me if it would be marketable and at what price. I can tell you that Incon sells COMPLETE kits for Mudstains that lest around $4000. I believe Cartech offers 'em a little cheaper. Keep in mind that mine would be a partial kit and therefore should be cheaper still. Then figure out what a decent profit would be without ripping off the customer or me. Custom headers aren't cheap, but if you build a few it'll get easier.

[Thunderstruck]

Most of the cost of the kit I assume would be the turbos.

New turbos are not cheap.

I prefer to get some $20 boneyard cores, sent them to Majestic Turbo in Waco (close to me) and have them redone for $300 or so, depends on the model.

If the core is unrebuildable the boneyard let's me grab another, exchange type deal.

For the manifold/header deal I have a set of Magnum manifolds off a 2000 Ram, mounted opposite of thier intended applications.

A hole in the inner fenders to clear the turbos, some piping/plumbing to go. The fuel pump might have to be swapped out for an electric one, more a heat issue than clearance.

Haven't sorted out the intercoolers yet, I have some ideas but room on a 65 Cuda is tight. I almost wish I had a 225 in there.

As for EFI, I have some ideas there too. I had planned to use my 89 turbo Voyager as an EFI donor, but modifying the software to properly run a V8 is more than I want to tackle, at this time. However, the gas tank, injectors, etc will be transferred over. I have a line on a DIY EFI computer than can handle the task. If I go EFI that will take care of the fuel pump issue too.

It's looking good to me.

Steve

[*Mopar*]

I would be very interested. It would be a year or so, and I would have to pay someone to install it. Hay, you want to paractice on mine?

Stoney

[dewme5]

i would think that you would have to start out with one kit. say.. the b block, in a b body. just start wiht that one.. get it working right.. then you can start from there.. but to try to cover everybody, is going to cost a lot of money. Just look at what it would cost to have 1 kit laying around your house unsold? then, think what it would cost if you had a 318 kit, a 340/360 kit, b block and rb block. not to mention the different body styles. thats alot of money.. and i dont think people are going to want to wait the time it would take to get each kit put togehter after they ordered it.. so you would need a good part of stuff on hand. if you narrow it down to just one setup at the start.. that would let you turn a profit before you have to remortage your house.. and.. anybody who is going to do this, is going to have to be somewhat confident in making stuff work.. fabrication etc.. so. to adapt the kit from a b body to a c, or e shouldn't be that hard.

thunderstruck.. hate to say the word mustang. but adapting a mustang efi is going to be alot easier than running a 4 cylinder van. you can go to a junk yard, get the harness computer, and the sensors for about $200. then you can get something called the tweecer and have complete control over everything. you can go here to check it out..

http://www.tweecer.com/

Im runing the holley commander 950. and personally wouldnt suggest it to anybody.

oh yeah.. and for the intercooler. I have a 69 barracuda, and it looks like the ford powerstroke diesel intercooler will be just about a perfect fit! it's tall, and wide, but thin. so it will take the max amount of space. the openings will be on both sides of the radiator, facing into the engine bay. so 2 holes... and a little mounting work.. should be no problem.. and it looks like it will fit behind the hood latch and support.. on my car anyway.

http://www.udnet.net/~pauls/intrcool.html

[goose]

Funny, I was thinking about offering the same kind of kit! I was going to start with a smallblock, dual T3 kit; there are a lot of smallblocks out there. My plan was to offer remanned T3's and a pair of semi-custom headers, sort of a one-size-fits-all kit that would take a decent amount of fabrication on the part of the buyer. I'd sell all the turbo-specific stuff, like the boost-referenced pressure regulator and a turbo bonnet. I was hoping to offer the bare-bones kit for maybe $1200, no piping, no intercooler, just a couple turbos, headers, regulator, hat and instructions. People could buy the optional equipment like intercooler and/or water injection and other stuff for extra cost. I don't know how many people would go for something like that though... most people nowadays want to buy a bolt-on kit and don't care about saving a buck.

[turbododge]

Goose: I think you may have hit a good point. If the people have the skills and interest to do a lot of fabrication, they will not buy a kit, they will source the parts themselves. I think a kit would have to be a bolt in for a specific application, so you could attract the common hodrodder, like they do with the Mustangs.

You can buy everything you need to build manifolds of the weld el style off the shelf with a couple of phone calls. Inlet ducting is exhaust tubing. Turbos, hats, connectors, clamps, wastegates are off the shelf items.

I would think that if you wanted to support yourself doing turbo installations, you would be better of offering a turnkey, bring your car in and I will put turbos on it, business. With kits, you don't know the skill of the folks buying them, which could be a problem if it is not a bolt in.

[Doug Wilson]

I believe turbododge is correct. The first thing that will happen, is that everybody here that's interested will want a kit at, say, $600 below your cost. Starting out locally will greatly reduce your "bonehead" returns, it will allow you to document each install, and after a few, will give you a lot better idea of the market, and exactly what's needed. I'm kind of a marketing guy and will help you out, if you'd like, for free. I don't even want a turbo on my rigs(at the moment). Good luck from Doug ...GOD BLESS AMERICA

[goose]

I'd love to run a turbo business and have been thinking about it for a while... only problem is TIME!! I work full time, go to graduate school, and already own one small business. Running a turn-key type business for the turbos would totally kill me unless I quit school and work. A rough kit business would take a lot less time and would still be pretty cool; like you say though, most people don't want to do it themselves.

[Dr. Righteous]

I two have toyed with the idea for a TURBO solution for RWD MOPARS. If you look around there is all kinds of stuff on the shelf for Fords and Chevys but MOPARS are forgotten by most vendors simply because we are in the minority. The typical MoPar guy responds to bottom line performance rather than what looks flashy. "Sorry those decals didn't make your car faster" is what we Mopar guys say.
If I had the bread to start off; I would chuck my computer related career and go for it.

[Doug Wilson]

I really don't think rough kits will do it. If you'd like to talk off the forum, my email is ThunderboltRanch@msn.com & my phone # is 503-843 2020, or give me your email or phone & I'll call or write you...Doug

[Duner]

I'm just about half way thru fabricating a single turbo kit for my '00 Dakota. I think that a few good hours spent cutting/welding this weekend will get me to a final completion date of next weekend. I'll be sure and let you guys know whether it's a total success or not.


Got Boost? hehehe

[curious]

id be interested in buying remanned turbos that are built to my needs as far as all those different specs. i can take it from there. well id also buy a few accessories.

[TT440]

Majstic Turbos, eh? I use their Dallas (Irving) location. Mike cuts me a pretty good deal. It's possible to get credit for turbos, but it's not quite as much as you pay for them in the yards. That rules out diggin up turbos for cheap (and greasy) profit.
I don't have any problems with used turbos for my cars, but I wouldn't try to pass 'em off as new stuff. The problem with salvage yard stuff is trying to find the proper size turbo for anything larger than a 360. They get few and far between.
I thought about the new Ram manifolds, but they won't clear the power steering pump when reversed. I measured out a set and compared 'em to the cop car. They outlet would need to be removed and rebuilt.

A full, ready to go kit is possible on the B or A bodies. I would just need a fully equipped car to build it up. Then I'd swap it around to fit on the different chassis in that family. The problem is that it would drive up cost and keep it from being cheap. I do understand that not all people share my enthusiasm for puzzles. By nature, if I did make a kit, it would be a relatively easy hook-up and at a minimal profit. I have a hard time gouging cash out of folks. In fact, when I've sold parts, I've usually thrown 'em up on the board to get a general opinion on fair pricing.

Goose... I could probably build that sort of bare-bones kit for under $1000. What you're describing is essentially the idea I had when this started. Small blocks would be far cheaper just because of the turbos required. I could build the manifolds/headers that would fit a multitude of cars. I simply need to have the cars available for header fitment.

I'm familiar with marketing requirements as well as self employment. Since this would be a relatively low demand product, it's not a source of primary income. It would still have a high priority because of the nature of the kit and a desire to bump the interest in our Mopar hobby.

[curious]

do you think you can hook me up with a couple remanned t3s for a 318? about how much? i dont mind using junk yard parts and having you some one you know rebuild them.

[TT440]

I can check it out with the shop. I dunno if they will be in on Saturday, but I'll check. I need to stop by and return the small turbine housings. I'll let you know what the cost would be as soon as I find out.

[shawnronan]

Although a buyer may have the skills to modify components as needed to complete an install, doesn't mean they have the time or knowledge to select the right combination of components. The buyer may not have the sources available to round up all these parts either! A customized service in which the proper components are chosen for the customers unique application could be very valuable! Any potential customers should realize that it would take some time to complete an order and be patient. It would be foolish to keep any parts (or kits) on hand, since every kit is specialized (you would be out of buisness pretty quickly!). This sounds like a great buisness idea and if the market is there, Go For It! Good Luck!

[Thunderstruck]

You are right about the Ram manifolds not clearing the P/S pump, but my Cuda doesn't have P/S so I didn't think to mention it.

As for using them in a P/S app. I though of maybe relocating the pump, using a newer remote reservior pump, to where the air pump was on my 87 Diplomat, if I wanted to turbo the Diplomat.

Turbo choices are indeed limited, a pair of 2.2 Garret turbos will feed an LA motor pretty well. For bigger engines, I see stock type Buick turbos on Ebay often, would two of those work?

As for my EFI donor choices, I do not plan to use the Voyager's computer to run the show, I just am going to use it's gas tank, pressure rgulator, injectors, wiring, etc. For running the injectors I have a stand alone computer that just does injection, ie no ignition control.

Steve

[goose]

Yeah, I was definitely thinking dual T3's and smallblocks because of the cheapness factor... if someday the business got going well and I made a name for myself I'd consider making kits for bigblocks but they'd be more spendy because a pair of common T3's just won't cut it! I did see a guy in Hot Rod a few months back that had a ferd wagon with a 460 in it, he was using dual T3's... no top end but absolutely ZERO lag! He had something like 700 lb-ft of torque right off idle. Of course the emissions 460 he was using never had any top end anyway so it's not like he lost much. Come to think of it, I wonder now if he even had to use wastegates. Dual stock T3's would get you close to 500 HP, which is what a mildy modded 460 should be able to get NA. Gee, now I have to go back and check that article again!!

[TT440]

The customer would need to supply the plumbing. I could work up a full kit but it would be longer and a bit pricier.

The 2.2 turbos are just about perfect for a small block. On a 340/360 you wouold run into the RPM problem. The turbine housings are kinda small and would limit the air flow.

The T3 turbine housings are kinda pricey when new. I tried to get it worked up today but you're looking at $70 each (minimum). Used parts would probably be fine if you don't break the bolts removing them. The housings aren't normally a wear item. Bearings are.

On the manifolds, I was hoping to build a set that would fit any small block Mopar. if I can do that, it would be far easier to adapt the kits to fit multiple bodies.

[curious]

maybe a few suggestions:

how about a web site for the buissiness and turbo info including a turbo forum. a forum would be the equivilent of email but we could all read just in case we also had a similar question.

how about selling other "paraphenilia"
lines, tubing, flanges, turbo stuff, header parts ect ect.

[TT440]

You can get all the turbo hardware from any number of rice-boy shops. That's how I got mine.
You can also check out two groups on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blowthruturbo/messages
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jyturbo/messages

The biggest reason for a kit would be having headers and properly sized turbos readily available.

[curious]

id rather put my money into a more "mopartriotic" cause like yours even if the prices are a little higher. i have no performance shops close to me with the exception of a chevy shop and some heavy duty diesel turbo/supersharger shop.

[Lee Pritchard]

TT440 did you know that some motor homes came with twin turbos??? i have seen two of them , i dont know who made them.. but they where cast iron manifolds and two small turbos.. a friend of mine has one of the kits that was never installed and he is planning on putting it on his 68 rr.... I will see him in a week or two and ask him where he got them .....Lee....

[TT440]

Most of the motorhome kits were single turbo setups. Not too many actually had twins. They also used a draw through arrangement most of the time. It will work but isn't recommended.
The manifolds were the biggest restrictions. The turbos were a bit small too. Many of the engines are not able to rev over 4000 RPM under heavy load.

Hopefully your friend has a good set. Before he gets carried away, make sure they will fit under the hood after installation.

Didja show him the (seriously lacking) TT440 page?
www.pentastarpower.com/TT440.html

[Lasalles]

Guys all this sounds aewsome,pity i live so far away in sydney australia.Could anyone have any tips for building a turbo setup for a small block.And ive seen in the posts that its possible to use a single turbo with a 360?????
anyone with any info to help a moparian downunder can get me at steven@oz2000.com

[goose]

You can use any number of turbos with any engine; you just have to be sure that the sum of all the airflows is enough to power your engine. For example, if you wanted to use one turbo it would have to be rated at twice the flow (for the same pressure) as one of the turbos in a dual setup. The reason that dual T3's are popular is that they just happen to have the right amount of airflow in pairs to feed your average mild smallblock, and since T3's are so cheaply available at wrecking yards the dual T3 conversion is cheap. Also using one turbo per cylinder bank is fairly simple to do. Finding a single turbo that flows as much as a pair of T3's is not usually a junkyard affair. There are a couple websites I've seen that detail a turbo smallblock setup; go to

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D...68/tthowto.htm

they have a good detailed site. Also try

http://www.turboboost.com/

[Dr. Righteous]

I would love to experiment with a turbo setup on my Coronet but the 383 uses KB pistons and shaved heads which ended up giving me 10:1 compression. Too hot for a turbo. BUT, I do have a '73 400 sitting in the corner that might be a canidate.

[icycleboy]

I must say, all those junkyard 400s are just begging for the TT treatment. I wonder if there's an ideal junkyard turbo for those, as the T3 are apparently an the smaller side. I'm certain TT440 has a clue here.

[novicius]

most people nowadays want to buy a bolt-on kit and don't care about saving a buck.

It's not a desire to spend money but a need for the convienence of a bolt-on kit that would make me choose a centrifugal supercharger kit over a custom turbo rig. Especially if it's still going to produce 500-600+ or more rear-wheel horse anyway, regardless of the inherent parasitic losses associated with a supercharger...

- novicius -

[NOSTROMO]

I guess I'll jump in here on the turbo madness....

I am working on a twin turbo project for my Dodge right now. I have another car so it isn't a problem sitting around. I purchased the turbos already...they are a T3/T4 setup with internal wastegates. I wanted the compressor slighty oversized so as to avoid efficiency problems and with an intercooler it should cover that area well. You will spend some dough from start to finish between the turbos, piping, fuel system......and other goodies to complete the job. Here are my thoughts:

The manifold will be constructed of schedule 40 weld el pipe. These pipes are heavy duty and are perfect for a manifold subjected to alot of heat. I spent about $350 on all of the pipes and fittings I thought I would need. You just need to size everything right to ensure proper flow without hindering lag time of the turbo....Bigger isn't alwats better. The power steering pump on the truck will need to be moved lower about two inches. This will be accomplished by making a template out of 3/8 sheet steel. On the power steering pump you will notice protrusions on the aluminum bracket where it bolts to the head. To make up the difference of the template you can easily chop 3/8 off the mounting bosses. This mounting position isnt finall till i get the header in. Another area of consideration is the proportioning valve below the master cylinder. The turbo downpipe will transition through the general area and some of those lines may need to be moved but it seems there might be enough clearance....again i must wait and see when i get everything built.

I am getting rid of "beer barrel" intake and will use the M1 itake manifold. I am going to construct a failry large aluminum plenum that will bolt on top of the m1 with provisions for dual inlets from the intercooler. The beer barrel manifold is known for blowing the lower gasket on forced induction magnum engines and likes to collect heat in the same area. A nice big plenum in combo with the m1 should be enough "reserve" air for the engine. Did i mention dual blow off valves?

One of the biggest areas often overlooked is the fuel and ignition system. The Dodge truck has one of the worst engine management systems when it comes time to do mods. It utilizes an in-tank regulated returnless fuel system. The only good thing about it is the 255 fuel pump which should cover most naturally aspirated mods like an air filter, cam, ported heads, or a low boost forced induction system.If you plan to make some serious power like a turbo or high output blower you will need more fuel. I am plnning on using a cartech 385 mounted almost below the tank with a -8 out and -6 return. This pump will support up to 600 horse. Custom fuel rails will need to be fabricated in order to hook it all up including an external firewall mounted regulator. Another area are the fuel injectors....at a measly 19lbs per hour even a boost rising regulator and pump will not cut it requiring the need for bigger injectors. Adding additional injectors is kind of a lost cause as the placement is critical for proper atomization of the fuel. What about ignition timing? Unless you have a huge tank of race gas in your backyard timing will need to be retarded under high boost pressures. The only real option is an MSD box or similar which retards timing. Unlike the Ford EEC management system in which you can easily tune through a pc or burn a low cost chip, a stand alone fuel system is probably the best way to go such as electromotive, accel dfi, or the fast system.You can easily control igniton timing and fuel injector pulses on a graph. The only setback is it will cost you $2000 on up

Decsions on how to set up the engine managment system is still in the works and to be honest very frustrating to say the least as nobody else has ever really "toyed" with chrysler EFI to the point of success. Driveability is of key importance to me so i have alot more research to do.......if anyone has suggestions..jump right in.


My thoughts
Anthony