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#1
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After doing some math and taking inventory of what's laying around, I'm going to build up a low-buck 496 incher. I have a 74 Casting Motorhome HP block and LY rods that was pulled out out a Highway patrol car. I'll be picking up a P5249208 4.15" crank and a set of Sealed Power 2387F forged 400 flat tops +.020 to fit in the 4.362" Deck plate-honed bores. A little known piece of info is that one of the main reasons MoPar chose the 4.15" size was so that an Off-the-Shelf 400 piston would fit. Decking the block down to 10.71", the piston winds up ~.040 down in the hole and the compression w/~80cc heads is about 10.85:1. By the time I notch the bores and Eyebrow the slugs (installed "backwards", of course)I'll be around 10.4-10.5. I have a custom ground Lunati Hydraulic 240/250 @.050" .520"/.547" lift (that I pulled out of my 451 before I sold it, it was too radical for new owner!!)that'll be about perfect if I decide not to go w/a roller. I'll also reuse my 451's B' motor M1 single plane with the MP 'popsicle stick' mods and my 830 Annular Holley. I'll either by the Spacer plates or have a set made. BTW, those spacers are great for neatly installing N2O fogger nozzle bungs!
I might have Marty find another 10-15 cfm or so out of both sides of my Stage V's and then I'll drop her in the ol' Dodge. I'll bag the #'s matching '70 block for future reinstallation when musclecar prices go insane again. That's about it, a 496" shortblock ready to fly for under two grand. The pistons aren't as good as ross's, but their $200 less and I'll save another $200 not having to bush the rods to .990. She'll make about 550Hp and around 600lb/ft with a torque curve as flat as a pool table. Fast, simple and Bullet-proof, just as God intended all MoPars to be! Wize 1 ------------------ Streetwize |
#2
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Wize:
Consider getting a welded stroker: http://www.devtex.net/paulscrankshop/stroker.htm For the engine you described it would seem perfect, and you could knock another 400 bucks off your costs. Don't about that fogger system, but then again, don't know about that with those stock rods anyway. AZP [This message has been edited by AZPentastar (edited November 30, 2000).] |
#3
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Az,
Yeah, I thought about that, but the bummer is I don't have a 440 Steel crank that isn't already "gainfully employed at the moment. The Police Interceptor had a cast crank . I like your way of thinking though!! As for the rods, The way I prep and clearance the old LY's, they'll hold up fine, even if I decide later to add a little happy gas. Wize 1 ------------------ Streetwize |
#4
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streetwize,
great idea i love it, can you give some specific details on those stage V heads for all of us moparholics. thanks |
#5
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I've got a 4.35" block and 1.863" CH ROSS pistons with ZGS rings and zero leak down, fully race prepped with main studs etc. I've been trying to sell for 350$, but no takers so far. The 400 pistons is a well known deal, just check the counterweight clearance and also the con rod clearance to the bottom of cylinders. If using a windage tray, check for clearance there too. As far as the spacers go one thing bothers me there. Since the intake face angle is not 90 degrees, I guess it's about 105, the spacers actually form a Z in to the intake port. The ready spacers meant for Stage VI's have too much material in the bottom, so you have to modify them anyway. If I was doing that kind of thing, I would propably make the spacers out of plywood. It really would keep your intake cool. Actually I have made carb spacers out of plywood and they have worked perfectly.
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#6
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Hey, sounds like a great engine.
รค Jocke |
#7
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71,
There's already some pretty good info on my heads under Stage VI vs S/R thread a few days back. I've got all the paperwork and charts from the bench work. E-mail me a fax# if you want, I'll send it to you. Hey 66, That sounds like a good deal except I'm sure the shipping would be astromomical From your place to N.C.. Yeah, plywood is a good option. Another option is to swap it with someone with an RB M1. I'm taking the Block for sonic testing and initial measurements next week. Tell me I'm not a MoPar fan; I have aa almost completed 65 Shelby Cobra Replica with a 427" 515HP Stroker Small block that I'm putting on the back burner to do this short block!! Wize 1 |
#8
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Hey dart, I wonder how much just the pistons would cost to ship from Finland? Wize 1 [This message has been edited by Streetwize (edited December 01, 2000).] |
#9
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Too much, I guess. And they wouldn't suit your application very well, they're with .990" pin, they have a D-shaped 24cc dish and would need a way smaller chamber to make decent CR; mine are 61cc. They weigh 790 gram with the pin.
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#10
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What is the shift RPM of that torque monster? I figure it will be below 5,500 RPM with the big cubes and small cam?
I think that if you decide to cam up for more RPM, then you will want to use aftermarket rods. |
#11
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Looks like project 496 may change to project 508, Az's talked me into a 4.25" weld-up crank and DartGT has got me talked into a set of Ross's. $200 less for crank and $200 more for the slugs. Hey, AZ, do you know anyone whose used these guys in Texas?? The only reason I'm askin' is he's lookin for the $$ up-front which usually raises a Red-flag with anyone that someone I know can't vouch for. I'm sure he's good but I like a 50% down 50% on delivery deal worst case w/ out-of-town machine work. Or a Visa Card.
Muscle Motors now have 1.09" diameter pin Ross Pistons made for a 4.15" stroke, dont need to bush the rods now!! I'll need to get bigger eyebrows cut for the 2.19"s though. I'll find out Monday how much I can safely mill off the tops for proper deck clearance & CR. if the math works, that's the way I'll go. As for RPM, I figure peak power at around 5200-5400 and redline @ about 5800. A funny thing about strokers is that if you build them right, peak lift (i.e., higher lift duration) becomes somewhat more critical than running duration. Many strokers I've built have had big cams not to neccesarily enhance top end but more to take-out excessive bottom end. With high stroke to bore ratios .9 to 1.2 the max lift and proper intake centerline phasing become way more important for cylinder filling than the overall duration. Long duration, simply put, in a General racing application is to allow adequate time at high crankshaft speeds (think how short a valve timing event is at 6500 RPM, for example). With a stroker, you can have relatively slow crank speeds but tremendously high proportional piston speeds which mean (to a point) no matter how long the intake event is or how big the port the piston velocity (particularly around the point where the crank arm is 90 degrees to the cylinder) will draw in the air/fuel mixture. This is where your mid to high lifts really help to extend the RPM range of a stroker. Due to their higher piston speeds (2X stroke length x rpm /12 = piston speed in Feet per minute)relative to crank RPM, a long stroke motor basically has a built in rev limiter, namely frictional losses to the bores. The time the valve is open is slightly less important. Another way to look at it is the running duration is more a by product of getting the desired peak cam lift by way of rate-of-lift. This I know is somewhat oversimplified, but it generally gets the gist. If you get a chance, look at the size of the ports on a 455 Oldsmobile motor, they are huge and yet, with a 4.25" stroke, these motors have no problem drawing high manifold vaccuums and low-end torque to move a 5800LB ninety-eight down the road. I built a 493" stroker Olds with only 106 degrees of lobe separation for a friends (Get This)77' Cadillac Seville!! The car ran 8.30's in the eigth with only 2.56 gears!! That thing would pull the hinges off the gates of Hell. You should have seen the faces of the 5.0 drivers that got on the wrong side of that car, we'd wave Bye-Bye to them through the Sunroof!! LOL A very good friend (name withheld due to Ex-wife manhunt problems) who used to flow heads and do machine work for both a very famous SS Hemi racer/builder as well as for Bennett Racing (of outlaw 5.0 fame) said it best, " You really can't put too much head or too big a cam in a stroker", you can put the wrong ones in/on it (take out too much bottom end) but it'll still run better than an overcammed/overported short stroke motor of the same displacement. Wize 1 ------------------ Streetwize |
#12
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wize 1
so what are you going to put this behemoth motor in ?? |
#13
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But with a good set of rods and pistons can you safely turn a 496 stroker 7000rpm? I relize this will be past the power band, but in my world of mud rpm's = wheel speed and that is the name of the game. I want to turn my 440 in to a 500 stroker in the future, that is why I was asking.
------------------ Mopar_Mudder --CLICK HERE FOR MY TRUCK PAGE-- 1983 Dodge W350 4x4, Reg Cab, Long Box Dana 60's (4.88 gears), 38.5 Swamper SX's, 205 Trans Case ARB Lockers Front and Back 440 , .030 over, 10.0:1, Ported 346 heads, 2.14/1.81 Valves 285/285 .562/.562 lift solid roller cam |
#14
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Matter of fact I do. I have his e-mail address somewhere as well. I will see if I can hunt it up and send it to you. Maybe we can get him to respond here as well.
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#15
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Hey Az,
I've already had some back & forth E-mails with Paul the Stroker man. He gave me pricing of $700 + 100 for no core plus shipping from Texas. But he wants all the $ up-front and then I got to wait 4 weeks. That's the part I don't like. I don't mind putting a good deposit down but I don't like having all my money "Flappin'in the Breeze" in case anything goes wrong. I got burned once a long time ago. The motor will be replacing the 446" short block in my 70 Dodge Charger R/T. The Stage V heads go 280 and 215 so they'll be up to the task. It's an original 4 speed car but I swapped in a Cheetah VB auto in for a little while. (Don't worry, nothing was butchered in the swap, the old 833-18 spline will go back in someday). To turn a 4.25" stroke 7000 rpm equates to about 5000 feet per minute piston speed. That's like turning a 3.5" stroke motor almost 9 grand so that's pretty high. With aluminum rods and a B1 type head it would be possible, I think you'd need somewhere around 370 intake cfm to do it comfortably on a normally aspirated motor. Which is doable. You would be tuning for a torque peak between 5000 and 5500. You just get diminishing returns (hp to rpm)once you take a stroker past a certain point so you've got to tune for torque. Ex: although IHRA Pro stocks w/ 814" stroker motors are 300+ inches bigger than NHRA cars, they are tuned to maximize mid-range with much larger tires, Higher gears, etc. They only pull about 7600 at the top end verses 9500 for a 500" NHRA motor. BTW, a rod to stroke ratio of 1.3:1 is pretty common on an 800" motor. For a mud racer, I'm thinking a supercharger would be more consistent and give you more average torque/power and maybe not put you on the ragged edge RPM wise. Because I want to wind up with an easy reliable, 3900 pound (w/driver)mid-11 car and keep the 3.54 (highway)gears in the car the stroker is the best way to get there. It already goes 12.70's on street tires and 9.2:1. I like driving to shows without my tach having a "stiffy" the whole way there. LOL. If I were willing to put in 4.30 to 4.56 in this car and put a bigger cam and the DLI/B&M blower back on it, I could pretty much do that now with the 440. Wize 1 [This message has been edited by Streetwize (edited December 02, 2000).] |
#16
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Like your car my truck is also a driver and more for fun then competition. It is also used more for trail riding and playing around in swamps more then competion mud drags, so a supercharger is kind of out of the question. Right now the 440 with stock rods(ARP bolts) and KB pistion and the roller cam will go 7000 (been their more then once, not by choice). Acording to Chuck at MM I should keep it below 6500, well when the wheels get to spinin and your foot gets heavy things happen fast. Guess I better turn that revlimiter back on! So I am not so much interested in the power it will make after 5000 rpm, just that it will safely hold together to 7000. You see once you get the wheel going and broke loose it take less power to keep then going. So you use all your monster power up to 5000 to get them going and from 5000-7000 is just to create wheel speed. you see that extra 2000 rpms makes 13mph more wheel speed.
Now that I have probably shown how little I know about stroker motors right now you set me staight. Thanks for the input. ------------------ Mopar_Mudder --CLICK HERE FOR MY TRUCK PAGE-- 1983 Dodge W350 4x4, Reg Cab, Long Box Dana 60's (4.88 gears), 38.5 Swamper SX's, 205 Trans Case ARB Lockers Front and Back 440 , .030 over, 10.0:1, Ported 346 heads, 2.14/1.81 Valves 285/285 .562/.562 lift solid roller cam |
#17
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Oh, okay. Didn't fully understand your application. I was thinking about a mud drags type application, I believe you're talking more about runaway rpm from wheels leaving the ground and maintaining momentum climbing rocks and hills, etc. It sounds like a good aplication for an MSD "soft touch" but I'm sure you're familiar with those already. If you go to a 500 you won't need or want that many RPM, particularly with the heavy flywheel effect of the tires and wheels. With more torque at lower speed I would think it would be easier to maintain momentum and the likelihood of breaking them loose might be less.
It sounds like you have a good solid 440, I think a DLI/B&M might still be right and you'd have plenty of hood clearance. I just don't want to cut the hole in my Charger. I do know that 7 pounds of boost in a 440 gives you the equivalent torque of 620 cubic inches! But I'm afraid mud is a subject I must defer to someone else. It looks like a lot of fun but after back surgery, it's (regretfully)not for me. Sorry (not "DirtWize" 1)lol [This message has been edited by Streetwize (edited December 02, 2000).] |
#18
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Hmmm.....500" AND a BLOWER!!
here come an idea now!!! |
#19
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Streetwize - I am the guy that AZ is refuring to you about Pauls, yes I had a crank done by him and yes I would do it again and yes he want's the $$$$$$ up front and no he did not deliver in 4wks.....
He had told me 6-10wks and delivered in about 14wks, I was not in any hurry at the time. Also want to say is Pauls does the cranks for the Hughes 508-510 stroker motors... I am also using Ross pistons in my combo... [This message has been edited by nick s (edited December 02, 2000).] [This message has been edited by nick s (edited December 02, 2000).] |
#20
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Nick,
Thanks for the info. I think Paul will be my guy for the crank if he can do 4 weeks. I want for him to find the core crank first though, then I'll 'buy' the crank from him so he is technically working on "MY" crank. If you can, tell me about your combo, Piston number, Compression Ratio, cam selection, etc. I never used a 4.25" but have done several 4.15"s and I know oil pump inlet and wet sump pick-up can get real cozy snug. Will a 1/2" hemi size Milodon pick-up work on a 4.25"? If anyone knows FOR SURE, please tell me, this MoPar Cosa Nostra is a band of Trust. Save the "I think maybe.." and the "On My uncle Bob's so and so" for the Brand X sites. You need hip-waders to visit some of those sites 'cause there's so much B.S. I did a 5/8" stroker for a guy about 12 years ago and we had to go with the dual external lines, but that may have been because it was in a 63 or 64' Savoy and the motor sat more forward and they didn't have as many aftermarket pans available then. We wound-up moving the motor back w/earsand putting a F/C style "Breadpan" under it. The other alternative was one of the old "center link sleeve" through the oil pans. I'm not sure if the MP chassis manual still lists the bulletin. What a nightmare that would have been. I also made him put in a smaller base circle cam because the hemi rods he was using were getting up too near the cam lobes. Must be getting old (38), they're all starting to run together. Thanks again Nick, anything you can e-mail me would be helpful. OBTW, Just for grins: I have a couple engine build-up software programs, one from Performance Trends and one that's proprietary; Anyway, Both are light years beyond Desktop Dyno. With 7 lbs of boost of Roots the 508 goes from 567 to 620HP and from 608 lb/ft to 672. Torque with the Blower is above 550 from 2400 to 5700 and above 640 from 3000 to 5000. Anyone for the first 12 second UPS truck?lol Wize 1 ------------------ Streetwize |
#21
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My 4.15" stroker was previously wound up to 7800 with C&A steel rods when it had more CR and a bigger cam. Now as a pump gas version I think it makes max power at around 7000, maybe a little under, and is not very willing to go over 7000.
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#22
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Yo Wise1- Have a 496 combo in the works myself (bought the mega block from AZPentastar's dad). I picked up a set of the Manley "H" beam steel rods in Hemi length plus 10 thou. Do you know if I am going to have any cozy problems with the cam with those rods? Also, a little enlightenment on the wet sump oiling of this combo would be appreciated. I really don't want to go the the expense of an external pump system if I can avoid it. This engine will go in a '66 "B" body.
------------------ The Old Hippie Hisself Ohippier@aol.com |
#23
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BTW: 4.15" stroke dates from hemi funnies in middle 1960s - it's the limit on rod clearance to the pick-up boss. A second reason was to make use of Nascar pistons (reduced CD, made for +.200" longer rods) in funnies.
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#24
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what you need to do is get in good with your local MP dealer,mines sells the 4.15 crank to anyone for $940.00 (last I checked) and their cost on it is $825.00(my price),bottom line,get in good,get in real good,I have known my local dealer for 15+ years.
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#25
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Brian I got one better I have a buddy that works at the dealership and sells me everything at cost. Even non mopar performance parts.
Christian ------------------ Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/ 68 'Cuda 383 Best of 8.363@83.78 in the 1/8mile which is a mid 12 with a 1.89 60ft Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI 69 'Cuda Race Parts Car 76 Duster 273 recent transplant 95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96 84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360 |
#26
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Quote:
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#27
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Brian_wo and/or CristianCuda......Which one of you wants to send me a crank?
------------------ The Old Hippie Hisself Ohippier@aol.com |
#28
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Quote:
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#29
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When we order ours in the spring also we can get you one hippie unless you want one right now. But the shipping may not be worth the savings. I would need to find out what it would weigh and such cost to ship. You may want to get snuggly with your local dealer to get it at 20% above cost which would only be $342. Figure with a crank weighing 40-50 lbs it would be 50 bucks to get it delivered or more. The crank costs 285 base price. Besides this would get you other things maybe at the same price.
Christian ------------------ Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/ 68 'Cuda 383 Best of 8.363@83.78 in the 1/8mile which is a mid 12 with a 1.89 60ft Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI 69 'Cuda Race Parts Car 76 Duster 273 recent transplant 95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96 84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360 |
#30
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I was about half joking here, guys. By the time I pay what ever your state and/or local sales tax is and the shipping on that thing I might as well go 7 miles up the street and buy it from Earnhardt's. Arizona has a hefty state sales tax but I think it would be a wash. Christian, I have no idea which crankshaft you were referring to at $345.00 or so but I doubt if it was the 4.150 balanced stroker crankshaft for my big block. If it was, at that price I would take 3 or 4 just for shelf stock.
------------------ The Old Hippie Hisself Ohippier@aol.com |
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