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  #1  
Old 10-21-2001, 07:01 PM
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David D David D is offline
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Default The superspeedways have got to go!

I'm sick of this cr@p! When is it going end, when several drivers are killed in one wreck? Instead of trying to do things to the cars to slow them down, how 'bout this: either shorten 'Dega and Daytona or knock the banking down. Make it so the drivers have to take their d@mn foot off the gas in the corners. These tracks were designed to allow passenger cars to obtain high speed, now that stock cars aren't passenger cars any longer, they don't need those big albitrosses. What's the fastest track on the tour now, Atlanta, 1.5 miles. Just don't need those huge tracks anymore.
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2001, 11:04 PM
Mr. Trans Am Mr. Trans Am is offline
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To hell with that.
I am very busy, but 4 times a year, no matter what, I make time to watch a race. Those just happen to be Daytona and Talladega. Having been to several races at different kinds of tracks, those 2 are hands down the big winners, and most race goers are of the same opinion.
Earnhardt loved 'em and said not to cry if he was killed in a racecar.
All of those drivers know the risks, and them take them week in and week out.

Also people don't die in those big wrecks like today, in fact they are the ones to be in, as more energy gets dispersed. Hitting the wall head on is the real killer.
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  #3  
Old 10-22-2001, 05:57 AM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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I too enjoy waiting for the race schedule to get to Daytona & Talladega. Although the drivers worry about the big wrecks that might happen, they have also made it known that they are tired of the "cookie-cutter" 1.5 mile tracks.
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  #4  
Old 10-22-2001, 09:58 AM
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Question How can they make them race?

I think what nascar needs to do is find a way to keep the cars running under 200 mph with out restrictor plates.

If they restricted engine size and or carb size for the four superspeedway races, without stiffling the research and development of the heads and intake of these cars, maybe you'd see some racing.I think by doing this, NASCAR would keep it's margin of safety, but still allow the individual teams to experiment. Or maybe a different aero package?

I'm sure some of you have a much better grasp of the dynamics involved here than I do. Does anyone know a better way than restrictor plates to keep the cars safe yet let them truly race?

I really enjoy the big tracks, or, at least I used to. Something needs to be done to put the racing back into the super-speedways. These follow the leader races are boring and unsafe!
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  #5  
Old 10-22-2001, 09:44 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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How about eliminating the plates & reducing the compression ratio to 8.0 to 1?
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  #6  
Old 10-23-2001, 04:38 PM
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David D David D is offline
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Well, if you think what's going on at the restrictor plate tracks is racing, I feel sorry for you. While the spectacle being shown is thrilling to watch, it's needlessly putting 43 drivers in a terrible position. Yes, drivers understand the risks in the sport, they're under extreme pressure to push on regardless of the possible concequences to themselves. If a driver were to say no, I won't do it, I won't race at Daytona the way things are now, that decision not only affects them, but their employer and all of the other employees of that team. The drivers, including the late Dale Earnhardt, have complained bitterly about situation, Dale has been quoted numerous times on how he didn't like restrictor plate racing. He was the best at it, but he didn't like it. I'm not alone in my opinion either, Bill Daviswas quoted on That's Racin. com as saying in effect the same thing I am. While, both races are big draws, it's not exclusively due to their size. NASCAR has been enjoying tremendous growth, but I don't have to tell you that, and many venues draw equal numbers to Dega and Daytona. As far as what type of wreck kills or not, seriously, you accept that excuse as making o.k. to allow it to happen. How 'bout if we stick one of you in a 'Cup car and get you going about 190 mph then flip the car and start having several other cars run into you at the same speed. Better yet, ask Geoff Bodine what he thinks about that statement. Speaking of which, lower compression ratio engines won't do the trick, already been tried, both the Busch series and the 'Trucks used lower compression engines, didn't slow them a bit. I stick to my guns, mesing with the cars hasn't made a lasting difference in the last 14 years they've been trying to slow these cars, it's time to look at the tracks.
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  #7  
Old 10-24-2001, 07:51 AM
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Question

Drivers, race teams, owners, and fans have been complaining about restrictor plates since their inception. NASCAR still has done little, if anything to change things. I already know all of that.


The question in my last post was; "What can be done to keep the drivers relatively safe, allow the teams to use their research and development, and allow the cars to race?


I think the super-speedways still have a place on the NASCAR schedule. The purpose of the restrictor plate was to slow the cars down for safety reasons. They have also taken some steps in the right direction, such as roof flaps and HANS Devices. The question now is how do you make the cars safe, fast, competitive, and allow each race team to build individual advantage into their own cars without NASCAR trying for peridy between the brands.

I heard an interview with Dale Ernhardt when he said something about removing the restrictor plates and limiting the Carb size. He said it would limit the top speed, but still allow the power needed for passing.

I heard another interview when one of the team owners talked about reducing engine size on the big tracks.

Billybob posted earlier about lowering compression ratios.

All of these sound more viable than eliminating the big tracks from the schedule. The tracks still work, it's the cars that don't work. Something CONSTRUCTIVE needs to be done about that.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure there are a lot of engineers out there who have some constructive ideas.

I'm not happy about what takes place on the super-speedways now, but I still maintain that it's the NASCAR RULE BOOK THAT NEED TO BE CHANGED, NOT THE TRACKS. NASCAR is very slow in moving toward change in anything. THey say they need to research things before they effect any change. While I believe to be partially true, I also think that NASCAR IS ROLLING IN MONEY NOW, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THE STATUS-QUO.
I've said this before; Money talks louder than fans.
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  #8  
Old 10-24-2001, 08:46 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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The Superspeedways are a problem. Accidents do happen and when they do lot of cars are involved. And there is danger.
1. The drivers are the main party complaining about the danger- the fans love it. But the drivers don't complain when they get their paychecks- bet a lot of servicemen are in far more danger on a daily basis for a whole lot less money. Don't hear any complaining from the servicemen.
2. The current restrictor plate engines produce about 400-450 HP. The plates have tightened up the field so that everybody's engines produce the same HP and the field bunches up like we saw Sunday. If Nascar reduced the cubic inches to 200, the engines would still produce 400-450HP(without plates) so the speeds would still be the same.
3. The Nascar Supertrucks ran Daytona this year without restrictor plates and put on a good race. Didn't hear much complaining from the truck drivers. Why? Because the trucks are so large and aerodynamically poor the 750HP didn't push them as fast. What does this tell us? The Cup(and Busch) cars are so aerodynamically efficent that it doesn't take much HP to push them through the air.

4. If you compare a Cup car of today to one of 15-20 years ago it's about like comparing a missile to a shoebox. Why not have a "special car" for the Superspeedways? It could be wider, taller, longer and less efficient aerodynamically and would slow the cars down tremendously and put the driver/enginebuilder/team back in charge- but the field would be spread out like it was in the 70s and 80s. Would the fans like it? Who knows! It would not make much difference for most of the teams because they already have special cars for Superspeedway use only. It would affect the independent teams with less $.
5. Nascar could mandate the banking be reduced at Daytona and Talledega so the drivers must let off in the turns. Don't hold your breathe! Both tracks are owned by International Speedway Corporation. Guess who owns the majority of ISC? The France family. Hell would freeze over first!

That's the situation as I see it. What's going to happen? Probably very little. Maybe some "feel good" changes. The only practical change is the "special big car" for superspeedway use only. But the track owners(France family) are very concerned about a duller race, thus unhappy race fans. And unhappy race fans means less money in their pockets. What would you do?

"A statement from a non politically correct person"
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  #9  
Old 10-24-2001, 09:01 AM
mopartodd mopartodd is offline
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Personally, I hate watching these restrictor races. The problem is, the way I see it, is that NASCAR has taken the drivers talent and team know-how out of the equation. Here's what would put this back into the big track races, in my opinion. Take away all front spoilers/air dams and rear deck lid spoilers. Get the car back to a more stock front and rear end configuration. The thought here is that if the car doesn't handle like it's glued to the track those guys "Will" lift going into the turns. This will also seperate the men from the boys through having a loose race car and having to actually drive the thing. Second, reduce the carb size to a smaller carb, a 600 or 650, to bring overall straight away speeds down. I believe that this would spread out the field due to driver ability and horsepower differences. It would also give the teams a chance to show that they are better than the low budget teams and put things back in perspective. I think the cream should be allowed to rise to the top, rather than continually churning it until everything turns into butter.

Just a thought, I'm sure NASCAR (specar) doesn't give a rats butt about what we like or dislike about restrictor plate racing.

If they want to make racing safer they need to get Kevin Hardhit off the track.
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  #10  
Old 10-24-2001, 09:30 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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The restrictor plates have a 15/16" hple in them now. This reduces the air flow of the 830 carb down to about 465 CFM. A smaller carb(like a 600 or 650) would not have an effect on the overall flow into the engine. It would still be about 465 CFM.
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  #11  
Old 10-24-2001, 11:14 AM
mopartodd mopartodd is offline
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I was speaking without the use of the plate. Thinking that an unrestricted carb would give the engine back some of the punch it lost because of the plate and would limit the overall topend speed of the cars compared to an unrestricted 830 CFM carb. Combined with the lower down-force, getting of the corner would mean something at these bigger tracks.

I would love to see races at the big tracks that reminded me of the races I used to see as a kid back in the early 70's when downforce numbers weren't what they are today. Make it so the drivers have to lift going into the corners, then drive a loose car through the turn and power to the next corner.
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  #12  
Old 10-24-2001, 11:36 AM
Otherguy Otherguy is offline
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Default Stock Car racing????

Here's a thought:
Since they're called "stock cars" why not make them run the stock engine from their production counterparts in their current bodies. Let the teams make small changes like exhaust and minor head-work, but basically the production engine. I know it'll never happen, but neither will any of the other solutions anyone has come up with.
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  #13  
Old 10-24-2001, 04:48 PM
Sly Fox Sly Fox is offline
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I agree with what Sterling Marlin said after the Talladega race. He said to let the cars run 200 mph. without the restrictor plates and let the faster guys go on out ahead of the others. If the slower guys can't keep up, thats their problem. They will just need find a way to be faster. But NASCAR probably won't do anything about it so we'll go to Daytona in Febuary and wreck'em all again.

I know NASCAR doesn't care what the driver's say about it though. The fans want to see very close high speed racing. A lot of the fans out there like restrictor plate type racing simply because of the "BIG" crash that happens. That is as long as their favorite driver isn't involved. NASCAR's opinion is, who cares how much danger the drivers are placed into, as long as it sells those tickets. NASCAR always uses the excuse that the driver's are professional and they should know how to avoid having those "BIG" crashes. Geez, forgive them, but they are only human just like the rest of us. They sometimes make mistakes as well. I often beleive the people that run NASCAR don't have a friggin' clue what racing is really all about. To them, it's about ticket sales.

Sly
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2001, 06:20 PM
dakota r/t2000 dakota r/t2000 is offline
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A lot discussion around restricted items related to the engine why not try sometnig simple limit the gear in the rearend so that at 10,000 rpm they are running at 185 MPH
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  #15  
Old 10-24-2001, 07:29 PM
340king 340king is offline
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I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The drivers might as well draw names out of a hat at the beginning of the race to see who wins and who crashes. There is about that much talent and luck in winning/crashing in one of these freight train races.

Sanborn hit the nail on the head. Look at how Loudon, NH was treated after two young drivers were killed there in similar accidents. These accidents could have been prevented with stuck throttle kill switches. Instead they put restrictor plates on them and talked about boycotting the race/track in the future if changes weren't made to the track. You wouldn't have heard these comments if ISC owned Loudon.

The only way I can see these tracks being returned to some resemblance of racing is to either change the configuration, drop the banking or shorten the tracks. This would allow real racing to return and probably not hurt ticket sales. Indy is as long as Daytona and doesn't have any problems, due to its lower banking.

As far as car/engine changes, I would like to see a pump gas rule at the larger tracks(say 90 octane). This would limit combustion pressure and create new thinking that would relate to the car market that we all use. This would surely limit the compression and HP. These changes coupled with minor track changes would work to improve the racing.

Improving safety is a whole different animal in itself. I am a mechanical engineer and studied crash dynamics in college. It all boils down to the distance over which you decelerate the car. Other things do go into crash dynamics, but deceleration distance is the biggy. I submitted an article in 1989 for Stock Car Racing Magazine. It never was published, because it made Doug Gore look like a buffoon. It drilled the article that he and Dick Bergren published a few months prior to my submittal. I feel that this lack of concern for safety in the industry is more widespread than any of you think.

I saw similarities in the crashes that killed Dale Earnhardt and Blaze Alexander. Both cars were forced into the wall with another car at their side. This kept the cars from rotating when they made contact, requiring the full force of the impact to be dispersed over a shorter distance. Distance of deceleration is the key. That is why soft walls, flatter impact angles, lower speeds and softer cars work better.

You got me wound up now. I will try to find the article, post it here as a download and let you guys be the judge. I will post it just as I wrote it while in college. There is one error in it that I will point out in my post. By the way, the article included references to soft walls, the TIGOR switch and better head restraints as sidebars to the main article back in 1989.
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  #16  
Old 10-25-2001, 06:19 PM
340king 340king is offline
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Here is the promised article. It is in the same text as the original, however, it has been re-formatted due to the differences in software since its original conception. Otherwise, you are getting a complete unedited version of the text. I wrote this around the late 1988 timeframe. I will try to resurect the other components of the article, the sidebars, in the near future. The current version is in .txt format.
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File Type: txt art.txt (11.3 KB, 10 views)
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2001, 04:54 PM
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It sounds to me like aerodynamics and engine technology has surpassed the super speedways. Maybe its time to do some adjusting on the speedway tracks to make the higher speeds even more safe and get rid of the restrictor plates alltogether.

Frankly I like the idea 340King has about the soft walls and It would be in Nascars favor to do some/more research in this area, which is a major factor in the driver death equation.
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