Is this the cheatest 408" small block package? $1100?

[moparrock]

I bougth a mopar crank from my local dealer for $299.
I bought Eagle rods from areohead racing for $469.
My problem is finding a good piston and rings for $350 or less. The best I have been able to do so far is the Diamond fordged with pins but no rings. This piston will need 1/16 race ring and they are about $130 per set.
Rumor has it that Keith Black has a Stroker piston for this application using a stock ring set at 5/64. I think it is called KB-356 and it maybe sell for $300????
Help me find these pistons or something in this price range. Thanks

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mopars rock with moparrock

[Tony W]

The cheapest pistons I have found for the 4" stroker in a 360 is KB. These have a D dish and a raised pad, must be used with factory type open chamber heads. They run in the $290-$300 range. With these pistons, you must narrow the rods small end to 1" wide. Not sure but don't the newer Magnum 5.9 have a narrow 1" little end on its rod??????? Remember once you get these parts together, the assembly must be balanced, either internally or externally. Hughes has complete kits, 4" crank, KB pistons and H beam Cat rods, all balanced for around $1550.

[moparrock]

you say the piston has a "D" dish? can this dished part be set up with zero deck height thereby making a small pop-up piston???

[Tony W]

The KB is listed as having a compression height of 1.465". Now with standard rod length and a 4" crank, this comes to 9.588" and deck height is normally 9.6" so the piston is .012 down in the bore except for the raised pad. I do not know how tall this pad is but it is suppose to mimmic a quench setup on open chamber heads so must be taller by a fair amount??? The KB is 610 grams in weight with pin. The Hughes kit also has rings and bearings.

[Tony W]

One more thing, the compression of 9.7 to 1 Hughes rates the KB as is based on a zero deck height and a 68cc head and .040" compressed gasket. Most factory heads are 72cc or more.

[moparpro]

from what i have read, the cc of factory heads is 64cc. i have never checked this for myself, but have seen this number as a reference in many sources

[moparrock]

Moparpro, you are supposed to be in bed by now.

TonyW I' a little stupid here but are you saying the 9.600 height is crank centerline to top of a factory block or something all together different?
Would it be as simple as decking the block .012 to get a zero?

4.00 stroke( divid by 2)+ 6.123 rod+ 1.465 comp/ht=9.588, I'm I doing this right?

[Tony W]

Moparrock, Yea, you got it, shave the block by .012" and you have a zero deck ht., good flat surface too.

Moparpro, in the 340/360 heads, early X heads were about 68 cc, early 1970's heads are mostly 70 to 72cc while mid/late 70's/80's saw alot of 72-76 cc heads. It's always best to check the heads you are going to use, check after the valve job is done and pick a set of heads that have only had one valve job since it left the factory as sunken valves(from regrinding lots of times) really hurts flow.

[moparrock]

Tony I have 3 sets of heads to choose from
1. stock 340 J with harden seats installed in both the intake and exhaust
2.A really stout of set of 2.02/1.60 that have hardened ex. seats and were ported by moparpro
3. a set of '74 360 heads that I can install new valves in

whats you pick and why?


Also what is wrong with the chat room?

[Tony W]

Well for the most part, all these heads have the same basic port size and shape, chamber volume may ba a little different but all close. Generally the 915 and 894 "X" heads flow the best of all the factory in stock form but with bowl work and 2.02" intakes installed, most any 360 head will flow the same. Actually on a mild 360, a 1.92 valve works real well as it helps keep velocity up. In a 408 stroker, 2.02 is needed. Looks like all your heads have hardened seats, that is good. So, have any had several valve jobs? If so, pitch aside unless they are exceptional(sunken valves from repeated grinding hurts flow real bad). If the valves in set 2 are not sunken from repeated grinding, these are probably your best bet. Now, are you going to install these on a 360 or 408 or??? The motor that I an eventually replacing is a 360, stock dish pistons, pocket ported 202 J heads, factory 4bbl intake with the plenum divider 3/4 removed, rejetted TQ, headers, MP solid .528/284 cam. This was a low compression setup but has tons of power. Pretty simple setup, parts work together real well. I believe it is a combination of the cam and pocket ported heads. I tried this setup with several single plane setups and it ran slower(port velocity went down). This motor will push a light A body into the high 12's with the right gearing and traction(I have 4.30's in my car) but I have it installed in a heavy F body so would run 13.20's but that is about all.

[DAVE JONES]

Tony has done his homework on the Hughes setup. He's absolutly right about the specs he's given as well as the little touted fact that the narrowing of rods is mandatory. Hughes Stroker kit cant be beat for being cost effective. The only concern that I had with this setup was using the KB and not forged but thats just my opinion. I also belive that the price may be a little higher than what was stated since right now, the kit mentioned is quoted with Eagle I beams but they are not available right now so you have to pay a little more for the H style. He could confirm this for you when you call. Since I'm assuming by now that you probably dont care about the Kit that Hughes has, he does sell the 360 stroker KB's in the 300 range so give him a call. I'm assuming that you have done all the research for stroking this and your current combo will be able to handle it including induction, cam, exhaust, tranny and rear, suspension, chassis, or any other weak points. If you do go with the stroker I would run the 2.02's with it. I'm assuming that you know this already but there is some light grinding of the block for the rods to clear but its no big deal. Call Hughes for complete details on the pistons and he will be more than happy to give you all the necessary details on these pistons and any other questions you may have.

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[moparrock]

DAVE JONES and TONY W
THANKS, you guys are great!!!
Moparpro and I are both building building 408's
Moparpro always GOES REALLY QUICK and spends less money than ANYONE I have ever met. I have gone faster but spend tons of money.
The object of this game is to go the quickest with the least amount of money spent.
Both of our cars are about the same, mine is a '73 dart sport 28x10.5 M/T's and skinnies on the front,Weld wheels, 8 3/4 B-body rear with either 3:55 or 3:91's, trcation bars, and relocated springs, Totally streetable with headers,. 3" 2 chamber flow masters and full exsht., full bucket seat interior, inspection sticker, tag, dome ligth etc. MOTOR .00 deck KB-107 .030 360, ported J heads 2.02/ 1.6068cc, .509 hydrolic, late modle 360 harmonic balancer, valve springs for a .555 lift flat tappet, titium retainers. M-1 single plane, 750 cfm top loader holley, chrome box, 10" street fighter, 904 with revers pattern, tank sump with blue holley pushing. 7.60's in the 1/8 or on the street.
Moparpro goes 7.50 with 2.08 intakes and
a better convertor.
I want the best peices/price for this short block package. Plan is this 408 short block and evey thing else gets transfered.
Pick the combination apart and see what you think!!!!
Try to find weaknesses or improvement and explain why. Both of these cars street race and bracket all year long.

[Tony W]

Combo sounds real good but question the single plane intake especially with 3.55 or 3.91 gears. I have seen too many dyno tests on various intakes on 360s. Some motors were very close to yours, some had smaller 484 cam and one had the comp cam 525/253@.050". All motors were real strong(400-500 h.p. when tuned) but all hated the single plane intakes(lost h.p./tq) and produces more peak h.p., more peak torque and more average h.p. and torque with a RPM dual plane. M1 was the best of the single plane, Hollet Strip Dominator and Offy Port O Sonic about equall, Torker sucked. Seems the port velocity slowed down with the single plane intakes too much even with a smaller carb installed. Something to think about.

I'm in the middle of completely redoing the body on my '78 Aspen R/T Sport Pack(1 of 624). The motor work won't begin until next winter. I have been collecting parts though, already have a fresh .030" over 360 block, H beam rods, deep pan and pickup, etc. Plan on a 408 myself. Have been looking into the heads though. I believe with this many c.i., time to think about better heads(now have big block c.i.). Either real good ported X/J heads, ported edelbrock or W2 heads. I am shooting for a compression ratio of 10.5 to 1(or close), cam in the 250 @ .050" range and am strongly considering closed chamber 65 cc head W2 heads(and a .040" quench motor setup). I am going to use either the MP dual plane W2 intake or the Weiand Stealth W2 dual plane. I can sell some of my exhisting motor parts from my other 2 360s to help pay for the parts but I'm looking at $4,000-$5,000 for the motor by itself. Anyway another opinion for what it's worth.

[tailfins]

Take a look at the Muscle Motors Kit also.
If you are looking for big HP all the shops I have talked to recommend forged pistons. The diamonds are nice but with 65cc Edelbrock heads push the comp ration a little too high for my liking on the street.
The MM kit uses Ross Forged pistons and is comparable in cost to the Hughes kit.

Scott

[Maxwedge]

A friend of mine talked to Herb McCandless ast this years mopar nats(For those of you who dont know he is an old Mopar Super Stock Racer from back in the day and about THE best Mopar Engine builder in the world). My friend had posed a question to him, He(My friend) wanted to know of a fuel injection system that would adapt easily to a 440 BB that my friend wanted to put into a Dakota.
Herb told my friend flat out that he was going the wrong way..for variouse reasons a Small block stroker should be the cheepest and easiest way to go. The Stroker Herb talked about(and I could be a little off on all these numbers) was a 600 hp 416ci(a 360 core) that in parts cost $1500.00..
soemthing to Chew on
Maxwedge

[Tony W]

Tailfins,
Diamond has 2 different pistons for the stroker. One is a flat top with 6.8 cc valve reliefs and with a 65 cc head, block decked to zero deck height(quench motor) and a .040" gasket you have 11.35 to 1 compression. Diamond has a second piston available which is made for close chamber heads. It has the same 1.457" deck height but with a D shaped dish of 20cc. These setup with zero deck ht. and 65 cc heads with .040" gasket comes to 9.9 to 1 compression. Mill the heads to 60cc and you have 10.39 to 1 compression. I checked with Chuck at MM and they have the Ross pistons made to order for each motor/kit. Custom Ross are around $625.

[Dr. Mopar]

Go with the Diamond pistons they are fordged and a lot lighter than the KB'S if you are after performance you want the lightest rotating weight you can get plus you don't want a cast piston in a performance engine.I've been building race engines for years feel free to contact me Tothperformance@csonline.net

Originally posted by moparrock:
I bougth a mopar crank from my local dealer for $299.
I bought Eagle rods from areohead racing for $469.
My problem is finding a good piston and rings for $350 or less. The best I have been able to do so far is the Diamond fordged with pins but no rings. This piston will need 1/16 race ring and they are about $130 per set.
Rumor has it that Keith Black has a Stroker piston for this application using a stock ring set at 5/64. I think it is called KB-356 and it maybe sell for $300????
Help me find these pistons or something in this price range. Thanks

[Giraffe]

I am doing a 408 stroker project right now, just got my mopar aluminum ported heads! so happy.

Anyways, I almost have the entire top end of the engine done, so I am starting to look into the bottom end.

Any good websites yet or write ups on the 408 project?

Also, what is up with the 360/416 stoker? I thought this could only be done based on a non-magnum 340 SB??? If I can do it on a current 360 Magnum engine, please, let me know where I can get the parts for it, and what the disadvantages are--- I want something powerfull, but stable enough for a long road trip.

Thanks!

-geoff

[Jims451]

I did some quick calculations the other day for a friend who bought the stroker crank for his 360.
KB says the 356? (I'm going off memory as I'm at work) has 23cc dish and a quench dome that is overly tall so it can be machined for proper quench, plus the rods need to be narrowed to 1" (same as the KB-232 360 pistons.)
I estimated that with unmilled stock 360 heads the engine woulf have about 9.25:1 compression, and if they were milled down to about 65cc (I don't rember the exact cc's?) the compression would be around 9.8:1 to 9.9:1

KB says you can mill off the quench pad and use the closed chamber Edelbrock heads. I did not calculate the compression that would make.