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  #1  
Old 01-04-2001, 01:20 AM
70gtx 70gtx is offline
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can someone run this on there desktop
440 .030
eagle rods
ross pistons
lunati 261/271@.050 .540/.563 108 seperat
106 timing makes(2 advanced)
indy s/r 290 intake 79% on exhaust
2 by 3 1/2 hedman hustler race
2 1/2 exhaust
hooker arochambers
edelbrock manifold 6 pack carbs
i may run on the real thing depending what cost. anyone know. or have any suggestions on combonation.too big a cam?
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2001, 01:33 AM
70gtx 70gtx is offline
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i missed a couple of things 11.1 to 1 actual com
mopar dist with crome box
i think thats it. walt
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  #3  
Old 01-04-2001, 01:46 AM
moparking moparking is offline
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I ran it at 10:1 compression,1350 c.f.m. carb. at 3"vac. on a dual plane.I used the head flow numbers from the 906's on a friends 440(also 290 c.f.m.)It came out at 490 H.P. at 6000&6500 r.p.m.,458 ft/lbs. @5000r.p.m.I think that the program would predict much higher numbers with a single plane intake and open headers.I think the cam is being "seen" as too large for the intake,or the dual plane intake is holding back the head, cam combo.I wouldn't take dyno 2000 as the last word,there are much better programs.However I didn't get any of them for christmas in 99 though.Anybody else want to run the combo on something more accurate/
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  #4  
Old 01-04-2001, 01:49 AM
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Marc Marc is offline
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Not meaning to be a discouragement, but my neighbour ran his specs right down to the colour of his lunch through his desktop dyno- chev pickup, tubbed, ZZ502, 4.88 posi, etc etc... and came up with 575 HP and a quarter mile ET of 10.82 seconds.
My 11 second 440 Demon was about 30 lengths ahead of him when we finally raced......

Yes, it's a TRUE story.....
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  #5  
Old 01-04-2001, 02:07 AM
70gtx 70gtx is offline
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marc, mopar will always eat them chevys for lunch
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  #6  
Old 01-04-2001, 02:33 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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Desktop dyno inputs do not care about the brand name or quality of parts, it assumes all parts will function correctly without failure.

The engine inputs Desktop Dyno uses is: engine size (Bore x Stroke X number of cylinders.) (4.35 x 3.75 x 8 = 445.9cid)
Actual "True" Compression ratio. (11:1)
Cylinder head type (wedge, hemi, etc, and valve sizes, and level of porting) This sets up a cylinder head model. You can also enter the flow numbers into the desktop dyno 2000 program to get a slightly more accurate model of cylinder head flow "discharge coefficents." I'm using "Wedge head, fulley ported, 2.19"/1.88" valves. This should be pretty close to the same as if I entered the flow numbers because I have done this before and there was not a big difference in predicted power.
Next is the induction:
There is no simulation for a 6-pack intake, the closest would probbly be a dual-plane intake with a 900 CFM carb. This will probbly hurt upper end power numbers in the simulation, expecially with a very large cam like you are using. Question? Why are you using a 6-pack with such a large cam?

Next would be the exhaust system. In this case it would be defined as large tube headers with mufflers. FWIW, the 2.5" exhaust system is going to cost you power with the cam/compression you have. I would look into the TTI 3" system as a minimum.
Last is the cam selection (hyd, solid, roller, and the cam specs either seat-to-seat, or 0.050" timming, the gross valve lift, the LSA, and installed centerline. In this case I'm assuming a solid? with 261/277 @ 0.050" 0.540"/0.563" lift with 1.5:1 rockers, 108 LSA installed at 106?

Here is the results:
RPM HP Torque
2000 134 352
2500 184 387
3000 226 395
3500 285 428
4000 350 459
4500 412 480
5000 459 482
5500 490 468
6000 504 441
6500 502 405
7000 485 364

Here is the same engine simulated with the single plane intake selected:
Here is the results:
RPM HP Torque
2000 122 321
2500 171 360
3000 216 379
3500 282 423
4000 354 465
4500 426 497
5000 483 507
5500 523 499
6000 548 480
6500 555 448
7000 518 400

Your cam is pretty big in duration, but the short lift is not taking advantage of the S/R's head flow. With an engine like this you should't be too concerned with torque below 3,000 RPM since you should be using at least a 3,000+ stall converter for street/strip, or even higher for the track.
Here is the same engine simulated with a roller cam, with the same duration @ 0.050", but with 0.650" lift:
Here is the results:
RPM HP Torque
2000 140 368
2500 192 404
3000 243 425
3500 313 470
4000 391 513
4500 463 540
5000 526 552
5500 574 548
6000 596 521
6500 604 488
7000 591 443
7500 565 395

And here is a smaller roller cam 251/261 @ 0.050", 0.620"/0.620" lift 108 LSA, in at 106.
Here is the results:
RPM HP Torque
2000 163 429
2500 218 458
3000 275 482
3500 347 521
4000 421 552
4500 492 574
5000 548 576
5500 589 562
6000 600 525
6500 607 490
7000 577 433
7500 553 387

The simulator shows this cam makes about the same peak power, but gives alot more power from 2000 rpm to peak power, it just drops off quicker after peak power.


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  #7  
Old 01-04-2001, 03:34 AM
70gtx 70gtx is offline
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man, that 6pack (looks cool at car shows)and lift on cam is killing 100 hp and 76 lbs torque. its hard to believe ! i thought a dual plane would work to 6500 rpms. thats about the highest im planning to run . im getting a turbo action 10'' 3500-3800 stall and have 391 gears .the cam is something i got with other pieces i bought ,
i guess ill have to think on this one.
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  #8  
Old 01-04-2001, 07:54 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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I don't know if you can still buy them, but a racer I knew had a high-rise (tunnel ram?) 6-pack intake. It also had a cool 6-pack Nitrous plate system.
He replaced it with a M1 single plane intake.
This was on a 500 cid Indy S/R with max porting. The guy races K.O.S. and can run 9's easy.

The big difference in the cams is:
#1. Lift, the roller cam is opening the valve more. The Indy S/R head normally flows about 276 CFM @ 0.500", but probbly 290+ CFM @ 0.600". That spread in airflow could possably account for about 30 HP alone!
#2. Rate of lift, the roller opens the valve faster than the solid. The simulation does not recognize the effects of using a special "fast-rate-of-lift" cam, so one of these cams may make more power than the simulation says it should for the "solid" cam selection.
#3. Friction, the roller cam has alot less friction which frees up HP. I think I read the reduction in friction can be worth over 20+ HP.

#1 and #3 add up to about 50 HP (the dyno showed about 52 HP difference, go figure?)

So it looks like (to the simulator) that the 6-pack might cost you 48HP?

Just for reference, my 451 stroker is very simular using B1-B/S heads that flow about the same as the Indy S/Rs. I run a mild street roller 251/251 duration cam 0.620" lift using 1.6:1 rocker arms (I want to go to a split duration cam to free up some upper end power.) 11:1 compression, Mopar M1 single plane with a carb spacer and a Holley 1,000+ CFm pro-series carb.
The headers are 2" Hooler super comps with currently 3.5" Dynomax race mufflers, soon to be replaced with a 3" TTI exhaust system.
Originally I has an 850 Holley DP carb, which was really too small for the engine.
I think the M1 intake may also be at it's limit in it's unported state.
These 450+ cid engines putting out close to 600HP really need alot of air and fuel.
I'm also running a Dynamic 10" race converter (about 3,500 stall, but flashes to 4,200 on launch.) I really like the converter, the "race" part is that it has anit-balloning plates in it. I think it was about $500 on sale from Mancinni Racing(normally $550 I believe?)
I'm also running 3.91:1 gears and 11.5"x26" M/T Street ET tires on 10"x15" centerlines.

The engine has serious torque, but I expected a bit higher shift points. Right now I just shift at 6,200 to 6,300 RPM.
Like I mentioned, I think the engine could use a slightly hotter cam, and bigger intake manifold.
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  #9  
Old 01-04-2001, 01:12 PM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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451Mopar, we have pretty similar style engines, although ours has Stage VI heads. It also has more cam, 276/282, .68"/.62" and 1.5 rockers. CR is 11:1 with flat tops and the carb is a 1000 demon. Drivetrain is about the same as yours, Dynamic converter, 727, 3.91 gears and 26/10.5/15 MT ET Streets. Suspension is stock with SS springs and the car weighs 3530 lbs. Best 60 ft is 1.50 and best ET 10.56/129.5 on pump gas.
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  #10  
Old 01-05-2001, 12:11 AM
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Marc Marc is offline
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451Mopar- I've had a few of those tunnel ram 3X2 barrel intakes. They used to be sold out of the Direct Connection catalogue.
I'll be running one on my coupe when I get it running at first, but mine has been opened up, dammed, plumbed for fogger nozzles and converted to 2X4bbls. It's basically what the 383 manifold in the Mopar Engine book has been modified to. Funny, I've never even heard of a "B" engine version. Maybe it's an "RB" intention and a typo?
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  #11  
Old 01-05-2001, 02:32 AM
70gtx 70gtx is offline
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A70duster i use to be chevy man but,know im mopar all the way and im going to be keep all my buddys behind me for as long as i can and have a lot of fun at it.i like everbodys attitude of sticking together in the mopar family.
451mopar what kind of car do you have?i havent bought these exspensive hedmans($550) yet. do you like the hookers and did they fit car and heads ok.
i think ill wait to get flow sheets(2 days?)then maybe ill go with a taller lift cam.i can switch intakes easy so ill try the 6pack for the summer.
thanks for all the input!
ill be happy to get it in the 11.'s quite a jump from 14's
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2001, 03:22 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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I built the 451 stroker way back in 1993 (I think) when the Brodix B-1 B/S heads were just newely developed and before Indy had the S/R heads on the drawing board, so the B/S and stage VI wew about the only aluminum "street" heads avaliable.
Anyhow this engine was going to go into my 1969 Coronet R/T which I bought as a hacked up bracket car which I intended to back-half and make into a pro-street car.

Then life got in the way, I got married, bought a house, got a dog, etc......

So I had the stroker on the engine stand, and I had my 1971 Charger 500, 383 powered street car. Well the 383 got pulled and the 451 drop in.
Took car to the track and it weighs about #4,150 to #4,200 depending on weither I have 1/2 tank of gas of a full tank of gas and with me in the car which accounts for about #300, I think I need to go on a diet to make the car faster
The Chargers suspension is set-up for cornering, it has the big stiff 0.990" Torsen bars, front/rear sway bars and the fairly big (for drag racing) 255x60x15 front tires, so it dosen't transfer weight at all to help traction. I also use the same size tires on the street, but out the Micky Thompson 11.5x26" street ET's on for the track.
I only race in club clash so the car has to have DOT tires and mufflers. So far I have only made about 20 1/4 mile runs in the car so it isn't as well tuned as it should be.
A good 60' for my car would be a 1.80 because if I launch the car at over 1,500 RPM, the tires will just go up in smoke.
I race at Bandimere speedway in Morrison, Colorado, just west of Denver. I think the altitude is about 6,000 ft, and with bad air the corrected altitude can sometimes be closer to 9,000 ft altitude.
Right now I'm satified with the mid 12-second performance because the Charger dosen't have a roll bar or sub-frame connectors.
I'm not sure, but I think from one of the HP calculators that uses MPH (110) and Weight, I probbly am making about 475 HP? at this altitude. I think this would correct to about 550+ HP at sea-level?
I think the engine is runing a bit lean, and I think the engine can make more power if I retard the cam position (I think it is in at 102 degrees?) I think porting the intake may help also, but my current goals are to make the exhaust quieter, get a new radiator so it will run cooler (did I mention most 1/4 mile runs were with the engine over 190+ degrees), and a firm feel steering box.
For better gas mialage (currently only about 10 mpg highway) I might also replace the 3.91:1 gears with 3.55:1 gears and curve the Mopar electronic distrubitor (currently on the 383) with the same advance curve the Mallory Uni-lite has so that I can have the vacuum advance function.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2001, 03:35 AM
70gtx 70gtx is offline
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451, so you say go with hedman which indy said was the only correct header for sr and b1 heads.ive heard and seen they fit b bodys good but not sure of the hustler race style fitting as good. thanks walt
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2001, 02:51 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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Sorry, I don't know about the headman headers, I used the Hooker 2" primary Super Comp headers ($375 from Summit)
These were designed for a 440, but they worked pretty good on the 400 block with the raised exhaust of the B1 B/S heads.
I did have to ding the tube in a few places:
The drivers side tube that goes between the frame and Torsen bar was very close to the frame, and a few of the sparkplugs are difficult to get at. Originally I put the header on with the plugs in the heads and they cleared, but I needed a bit extra clearance for the spark plug socket tool to replace the plugs once the headers were on.
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