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  #1  
Old 01-09-2001, 03:45 AM
Super Dave Super Dave is offline
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What is the best, cheapest and easiest way to get 500 HP from a BB Mopar. Should I go with the 400 or 440 block. I will be using Hyd. cam, roller rockers and decent intake. I want to do this with some parts from salvage yard. Any help on the right combo would be of help.
I want to go 1150's in 68 Dart, I also plan on sraying it later on this year.
Thanks Super Dave.
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  #2  
Old 01-09-2001, 05:00 AM
Morris Brown Morris Brown is offline
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The cheapest way is to buy a crate engine. By the time you buy the parts to make it go and the things to keep that thing together the mopar crate is the way to go. No one loves to build an engine any more than I do. it's that sense of pride that goes with it. Part prices have gotten out of hand. Have you priced the Demon carb? Damn!!!
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  #3  
Old 01-09-2001, 06:26 AM
Fury Boy Fury Boy is offline
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I disagree, I figure a 500 horse 440 could be built for $5000 on a generous budget. What Crate motor compares to that?
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  #4  
Old 01-09-2001, 08:40 AM
fat bastard fat bastard is offline
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Wow, where to begin? You could go about this many ways. One thing to check out is the MP catalog as it has some old but tested combos for different brackets. With the dart, it would be easier to go with a low deck 400 block and with that in mind why not a stroker (horsepower to dollar ratio is still pretty good). There are many ways to go about making 500 horsepower, so be honest with what you are willing and capable of doing/spending.
F.B.
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2001, 09:54 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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The 505 HP crate engine sells for about $6,000, and the 545 HP crate is $6,800 and these engines do not come with the distrubitor/ignition system, or the waterpump and water pump housing, or the crank dampner like the small blocks and hemi crate engines.
The main advantage of the crate engines is the 4-bolt HD blocks and the 4.15" stroker crank, but you may end up replacing alot of the rest of the engine if you plan to run nitrous.
The cast pistons should be replaced with forged pistons, You may want to install stronger connecting rods too. You would probbly want a better cam that works better with nitrous.

Probbly one of the easiest and least expensive was for 500+ HP is to get a Muscle Motors short block kit for the 440 or 451 (stroked 400.) The 440 kit with forged ross pistons and Eagle rods is $1,948. Preping your block (clean, align hone mains if needed, bore with deck plates and mill for deck height and install cam bearings) should only cost around $500 max.
So now we are at $2,448 for a pretty good short block. Lets add ARP main studs ($60) and head studs ($108), a HV oil pump, new oil MP oil pump drive and windage tray ($100). Getting fancy we could even add a Milodon Low profile oil pan and pickup ($200)
Now we are at $2,916.

If edelbrock releases their new big block heads, they would probbly be the best bang for the buck, so we'll guess they cost (high-ball) $1,500 complete ready to bolt on.
Cost is now $4,416.
We still need gaskets ($100) and pushrods ($100 max), and a timming chain ($100 max)
Thats $4,716.
That still leaves us at least $1,284 (difference from crate engine) for the cam/lifters and intake system.
If we use the same MP cam/lifters (only $150) and a M1 single plane (about $200)
were are at $5,066 for a stout engine.
If you went with a 451 stroker, the cost would be $300 more (from the Muscle Motors kit cost.)
If you really need a 4.15" stroker crank it would cost $851 more ($5,917) for the muscle motors kit (their price included the eagle rods.) That price would be the same for either a 440 or 400 block.

Either the home built 440/400 engine or the crate engine will need a dampner and you should invest in a SFI approved one since you plan to race.
The mopar performance waterpump housing and water pump are a bit expensive, but much lighter than stock if your looking to reduce weight. You will also need a carburator and headers and an exhaust system with either engine.

If you looked at my list, you could save some money with a less expensive oil pan/pickup, Pushrods and timming chain are realisticaly avaliable for almost 1/2 my estimate, you could re-use your oil pump drive (unless you go to a roller cam.)
I would probbly use a more expensive cam/lifter package with matching springs/retainers if it were my engine, and ARP sell main and head "bolt" kits which are less expensive than the "stud" kits if you are looking to save a few bucks and still have the "good" parts to hold the engine together.

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  #6  
Old 01-09-2001, 05:18 PM
rat roaster rat roaster is offline
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440 block ,10.5 to 1 forged pistons , 509 mp cam ,ported 906 or 452 heads 2.14 int 1.81 exhaust, m1 intake ,850 holley 9380 annular, 1 7/8 to 2 inch headers , good ignition system,Arp rod bolts 1/2 oil pickup,7 qt moroso pan . Add a mechanical cam 557 mp or a comp or ultradyne and some comp cam roller tip rockers for more power. The trick is to have the heads done by an experienced porter and machine work must be perfect. If its only a drag car bump the compression up to 11 or 11.5 . Hot rod mag built the 509 cammed model 10 to 1 comp and made 512 hp corrected. I have the 557 cammed model with KB hyperutectic pistons 10.5 to 1 and make 486 hp at the crank (about 410 at the wheels )not corrected at 3500 feet . I have run a best of 11.79 @ 114 mph @ 3500 feet air, in a 1972 swinger street car(full interiour ,roll bar,heater ,wipers ,stereo,etc ) weighing 3616 lbs with me in it. The car is running on ss springs, gas shocks and steel rally wheels with 10x28 slicks at the track. Its not the fastest but its alot cheaper than alot of my buddies $8000 dollar chevy engs. I have about $4500 into the engine including the hooker headers (fenderwell)$650. and the 850 carb$620. ,M1 , and the comp cam rockers.Plus I have to order all my parts from you all down in the States,and the Candian dollar sucks.If your car is lighter and you have better air you will have no problem reaching your goal.Also I run a 3500 Neil Chance converter and 4.10 gears.60 fts are in the mid to high 1.60s. if there is vht and on a poor track 1.78.which slows the car to 11.87 et.The fun part is I can run super pro at my track in a grocery getter (not really its to hard on fuel) and I run slow so I leave way before my competeter does and I see alot of them red light .I drive the car about 300 miles a month in the summer.I have over 7000 miles on this engine now.If you corrected the ets of this car to sea level it would be in the low 11s.
Super Dave for the engine work or advice contact this fellow he use to do articles in Chrysler power . Don Dulmage RR#1 Belleville Ont. K8N-4Z1 Phone 613-969-8145. He goes fast cheap and appears to really know mopars.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2001, 08:49 PM
Super Dave Super Dave is offline
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Rat Roaster, I live 5 miles from Don, in Belleville, Super Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by rat roaster:
440 block ,10.5 to 1 forged pistons , 509 mp cam ,ported 906 or 452 heads 2.14 int 1.81 exhaust, m1 intake ,850 holley 9380 annular, 1 7/8 to 2 inch headers , good ignition system,Arp rod bolts 1/2 oil pickup,7 qt moroso pan . Add a mechanical cam 557 mp or a comp or ultradyne and some comp cam roller tip rockers for more power. The trick is to have the heads done by an experienced porter and machine work must be perfect. If its only a drag car bump the compression up to 11 or 11.5 . Hot rod mag built the 509 cammed model 10 to 1 comp and made 512 hp corrected. I have the 557 cammed model with KB hyperutectic pistons 10.5 to 1 and make 486 hp at the crank (about 410 at the wheels )not corrected at 3500 feet . I have run a best of 11.79 @ 114 mph @ 3500 feet air, in a 1972 swinger street car(full interiour ,roll bar,heater ,wipers ,stereo,etc ) weighing 3616 lbs with me in it. The car is running on ss springs, gas shocks and steel rally wheels with 10x28 slicks at the track. Its not the fastest but its alot cheaper than alot of my buddies $8000 dollar chevy engs. I have about $4500 into the engine including the hooker headers (fenderwell)$650. and the 850 carb$620. ,M1 , and the comp cam rockers.Plus I have to order all my parts from you all down in the States,and the Candian dollar sucks.If your car is lighter and you have better air you will have no problem reaching your goal.Also I run a 3500 Neil Chance converter and 4.10 gears.60 fts are in the mid to high 1.60s. if there is vht and on a poor track 1.78.which slows the car to 11.87 et.The fun part is I can run super pro at my track in a grocery getter (not really its to hard on fuel) and I run slow so I leave way before my competeter does and I see alot of them red light .I drive the car about 300 miles a month in the summer.I have over 7000 miles on this engine now.If you corrected the ets of this car to sea level it would be in the low 11s.
Super Dave for the engine work or advice contact this fellow he use to do articles in Chrysler power . Don Dulmage RR#1 Belleville Ont. K8N-4Z1 Phone 613-969-8145. He goes fast cheap and appears to really know mopars.
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  #8  
Old 01-10-2001, 12:11 AM
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Christopher Christopher is offline
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My 383 in my 71 Demon goes 11.60's and here's what it has....Holley 750 double pumper,Edelbrock Torker intake,906 heads cut .030,Street Hemi valve springs and chrome moly retainers,stock valves,Mopar 284/484 Hyd cam,Cloyes timing chain,Moroso oil pan,TRW hi vol pump,TRW pistons(10.2 compression)moly ring set,2" headers,3800 stall converter,stock 727 TorqueFlite.The 440 has the same stuff except for cast 9.2 compression pistons and a 296/557 Mopar cam and 452 heads with the larger valves and Crane roller rockers,it runs 11.29@117.
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  #9  
Old 01-10-2001, 12:51 AM
BruceM BruceM is offline
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HP Mopar did a series in 1995 called "Whole Lotta Horses" A 440 was built as follows:

+ .030 overbore w/TRW L2355F30 pistons and Sealed Power R-9224 035 rings
M-77 full groove main bearings
Windage tray and MP six quart oil pan
Increase pick-up to ½”
Shot-peen & resize rods
P4120068 MP rod bolts
Cloyes double row roller chain
Lunati SM-235 cam, p/n 07302
346 heads ported to flow 247 (I) and 216 (E)
3-angle valve job w/2.14” and 1.81” valves
Heads cut and equalized to 86 CC
MP rocker arms and MP rocker shafts
Lunati chrome-moly pushrods #82718
Carter 6903 mechanical and 4594 electric fuel pumps
MP distributor and Chrome box
M-1 intake and 3310 750 Holley

Basic blueprinted and balance assembly. With 2" dyno headers and tuning it produced 513 HP @ 5500 RPM and 528 ft. lb @ 4000 RPM.

My goals are very similiar to yours. I'm still planning (and carefully spending $), so my car probably won't be done for another year. But, Ive learned one important thing from these bulletin boards. Producing HP on a dyno is only one part of a fast car. The whole package has to come together for things to work o
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  #10  
Old 01-11-2001, 07:37 AM
rat roaster rat roaster is offline
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Christopher send some of that good Florida air up to the great white north .Your car sounds great what does it weigh and what rear gear ratio do you have.
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  #11  
Old 01-12-2001, 12:20 AM
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Christopher Christopher is offline
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Thanks RatRoaster.The car weighs 3370# with me in it and has a 5.12 Dana.I've got some fiberglass to install,but may wait later this year to install it.I built a exact duplicate of my 440 2 years ago for a friend with a 72 Demon and he is still running 10.80's at 6800 rpm using a 4.88 gear.Our cars are identical except for color and the gear.I just have acquired access to a digital camera,so as soon as I can figure out how to post,I'll post pictures of my car.
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2001, 04:01 AM
Rob Voyles CA Rob Voyles CA is offline
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Christopher...I've always wondered what work exactly you have done to those heeads on the 383? Stock valves? template porting? etc? backcut valves? etc.?
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  #13  
Old 01-13-2001, 02:58 PM
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Christopher Christopher is offline
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Nothing,except for a minor shave(-.030)They have the stock valves,and I did a bit of cleanup around the exhaust ports where they were rough compared to the gasket.We don't put a lot of stuff or money into our engines,mainly because I don't have it.My wife has her house,my son has what he needs,so the race cars are not at the top of the list.Plus I like to build this way as you don't need a bunch of high dollar stuff to make a big block Mopar run.The 383 that was in my Road Runner was the original engine,had the stock factory short block,and all we did to it was run a street hemi cam,shaved the heads,and used the same stuff that's on the 383 in the Demon.It ran 12.20's.In fact the driveline and the bolt on stuff were taken off the 'Runner and put on the Demon.The 750 Holley was purchased in 1972!!Our big thing is total seal.Ring seal,gasket and good vacuum are the key.That and careful assembly.I'll be honest,I've been told I'm full of snot when people ask what our engines have in them,but I always reply, for a small fee,I'll be glad to show anyone what we have.
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  #14  
Old 01-13-2001, 07:56 PM
Brian C Brian C is offline
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A good friend of mine has a 72 Duster that weighs 3180 race weight with him in it. His car goes 6.67 in the 1/8th and 10.60 in he quarter. There is a calculation you can use to figure horsepower, but he is using a simple combination. He bout the overhaul kit for his 440 from jegs for $750 or whatever they are now. Flat top pistons, home ported 452's but he used 1.19 intake valves. A 7 quart pan, 2" fenderwells, a team G w/ and 850 DP. 4:10 Truck Dana, and a 4000 10" converter.
A 557 MP cam w/ 1.5 iron rockers which he has had for about 20 years and a dual point distributor that he bought in 1975 using only 1 set of points. This car is no frills, bare bones racer. Investment is the underside of $2000 in the short block and heads. Cast iron water pump and housing, factory mounts, and he shifts at 4800 beleive it or not. This proves that a cast crak is certainly adequate. My pointis that you don't have to go too far away from stock configurations to make a 440 make power, especially at the bottom end. Also, this is using stock leaf spring car, 3 way drag shocks, no pinion snubber or frame ties. You could put this engine in a Diplomat and drive it daily. Christopher may share my opinions, because this is a fact, not a Car Craft article. Those guys are in business to sell parts and make money that you don't need to spend. All my info is displayed on the track ever week. I have wasted money on things that were supposed to be the only way to go, and I hate seeing people make the same mistakes I have buying the latest and greatest parts advertised in the magazines. In a 68 Dart, high 10's are possible with a streetable 440. I have seen it done over and over again, and I hope you acheive the same thing! Best of luck!
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Old 01-14-2001, 08:59 AM
montrose ram montrose ram is offline
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Car Craft does alot of "Junk Yard Jewel"articles now, too! BTW, were those typos in your last post. "1.19 valve" and "shifts at 4800"..? For that cam, 5800 rpm would be more like it, I beleive! Please correct mistakes in your posts if you can, it helps those reading it to understand better. see, I had to

[This message has been edited by montrose ram (edited January 14, 2001).]
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2001, 01:05 AM
PRO PRO is offline
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You asked for the cheapest way,here goes,buy a good running 440 magnum for $500-600,then disassemble it and freshen it,rings bearings gasket and valve job if needed,so add $500 then add headers and 150hp shot of nitrous add $1000$....TADA!! 550 hp for $2100,actually mine made 572hp but had 509 cam and torker intake with 800 holley....PRO....
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2001, 08:47 AM
Brian C Brian C is offline
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Biggrin

Actually montorose, I did not make a typo. But I will correct my statement, this car goes through the traps at 4800 with a 4.10 gear with 31.5 tires, and it shifts at 5500. I simply let others know what actually works by track testing with whatever parts are laying around. Just sharing some info. I get many people who choose not to beleive simply because they haven't done it, never heard of it, or it just doesn't seem possible to them. Bigger is not always the best!
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  #18  
Old 01-16-2001, 07:39 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Okay, Brian C, I'll take you at your word. 1.19" valves are not a typo. How did he get the seats small enough to make them fit? Welding? That's an intake valve in a big block that's smaller than the the exhaust valves of most 4-bangers. Why would anyone want to restrict their intake flow so much, and how could you even do it? And if you did, how could a big block rev to 4800, let alone 5500?
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  #19  
Old 01-16-2001, 12:32 PM
Brian C Brian C is offline
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Wink

I apologize. I DIDN'T catch the "1.19" typo. I didn't catch it because I thought that Montrose was implying that the car shifting at 4800 was a typo! Focusing on the wrong part of the sentence. I made a mistake, you are both right about the 1.19! What I meant to write was 2.19 intake/ 1.81 exhaust. Make more sense? Again, just sharing some thought. 500HP from a 440 is certainly attainable which I am sure we all can agree. To do it inexpensively is also not extremely difficult to acheive, I was just throwing ideas out of configurations that I know work.

[This message has been edited by Brian C (edited January 16, 2001).]
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  #20  
Old 01-18-2001, 01:28 AM
BruceM BruceM is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rat roaster:
... I run a 3500 Neil Chance converter
Ratroaster, (or anyone else) do you have contact info on Neil Chance???

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  #21  
Old 01-18-2001, 07:47 AM
drumcat440 drumcat440 is offline
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Biggrin

i bought a set of the edelbrock heads for 1209.00(jegs) hopefully i will take delivery
mid february, i am hoping to drop these on my current combo and see 500 HP.....but first the heads!
later christian.
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2001, 06:39 AM
B1 B1 is offline
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super dave huh, ok. to go 1150s in a dart, with 500 hp the car cannot weigh more than 3200 lbs. 500 hp 440-10 to 1 comp. for 92 octane, trw piston, resize rods w/bolts, grind crank min., modify oil hole from pickup side to oil pump side for better oil flow, m.p. windage tray, comp cams 284 extreme energy cam, degree cam, file fit rings-top 18 second 22, 452 casting heads, 2.14 int. 1.81 exh., phosphorus-bronze guides, professionally ported (about 400 to 600 dollars) good 5 or 6 angle seat on int. and radius exh. seat, roller rockers (crane are very good, also comp's magunm rockers), 3/8 pushrods, comp cams double springs, 10 deg. retainers and locks, good oil pump, and either an m1 or performer rpm. use an 800 dp. carb, and 1 7/8 header. this usually makes 505 hp @ 6200 rpm and 515 lbs. torque @ 5000 rpm. IMM can build this motor for 5200 dollars. not exactly cheap, but powerful, dependable, and runs on 92 octane with 38 degrees total timing and race dist. Brian
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  #23  
Old 01-20-2001, 03:39 AM
rat roaster rat roaster is offline
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Bruce m
Here is Neil Chances address.
http://www.mspmall.com/chance/
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