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  #1  
Old 02-03-2001, 11:38 PM
cdignition cdignition is offline
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Wow, chevy guys are leaving us in the dust once more....I wish Ray Barton or Muscle Motors would wake up...The new thing from Reher-Morrison is the Revised Firing order camshaft...considered Voodoo by some guys on here...Roller shaft is only $320.00(big stick Roller Cam). Why cant Mopar suppliers be on top like this for us?...
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  #2  
Old 02-04-2001, 12:23 AM
cuda367 cuda367 is offline
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The amount of HP gain is, at best, about 4-6.I don't think the gain if you could call it that is worth the expense.
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  #3  
Old 02-04-2001, 05:00 AM
Warren J Warren J is offline
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The hp improvement is really 8-10. Spliting hairs, maybe. Lets see, a std roller cam is about $285. I can get 8-10 hp for another $35. Anybody here that wouldn't spend $35 for 8-10hp raise you hand. Strange, I don't see any hands in the air. Oh wait there's one, except they have to use the bathroom.

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  #4  
Old 02-04-2001, 09:25 AM
JusHAT JusHAT is offline
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Warren J. I love it! HATSFV
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  #5  
Old 02-04-2001, 03:29 PM
Dragracerr Dragracerr is offline
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I dont believe anyone suggested that shuffling the firing order was voodoo. My comments and the others I read was based on cost Vs gain. From what I'm aware of, nothing has changed in the Mopar world regarding cost. If your bracket racing and you think this 4 to 10 hp is worth $35, by all means go for it. Again, you cannot assign hp numbers to this modification without factoring port layout in both the head and intake configurations.
Do this, (providing you race a gm where this $35. applies) spend the money make the change and return to this board with your on track results, and we will discuss practicality again..........
or if you prefer, the voodoo of theory and reality.


[This message has been edited by Dragracerr (edited February 04, 2001).]
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  #6  
Old 02-04-2001, 03:41 PM
cdignition cdignition is offline
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First thing is nobody said anything about racing brackets...i guess no one called it voodoo, but it did get called mad scientist stuff...i can do that with my slow truck. Whats the head layout or port configuration have to do with anything....and also remember...whats 35 bucks when doing a buildup...hell we waste that on dinner at the steakhouse.
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  #7  
Old 02-04-2001, 04:04 PM
Dragracerr Dragracerr is offline
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Does the c-d stand for capacitive discharge?
In the following order:
1.It was directed in the earlier post that anything less than pro stock, comp eliminator etc. It is worth the venue, bracket racing it is not.
2.You ask what does it have to do with induction layout? Ask yourself this, why would you change the firing order in the first place?
3. $35 bucks to you may not be anything significant, but it could be a number of things to others that would provide visible worth.

As I stated, perform the mod and advise on the results, it appears you need to learn.
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  #8  
Old 02-04-2001, 04:34 PM
Rug_Trucker Rug_Trucker is offline
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Was it here or on the other board that I read about a different crank to change the firing order on the 440? Again what I've read not that significant of gains.
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  #9  
Old 02-04-2001, 04:49 PM
GUAM SS/T GUAM SS/T is offline
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Geez, I always guessed that MA MOPAR would have the firing order pretty well figured out at the factory. I am not surprised that chevies work better with a different firing order sort of like 305-350 and 350-305 heads working better after the swap. why didn't chevy put them together that way in the first place if it works so well???

Just cuz it works on a Chevy doesn't mean it will work the same on a mopar.
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  #10  
Old 02-04-2001, 07:27 PM
Warren J Warren J is offline
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Hello cdignition, good post. Well we got away from the original question. Why can't Mopar suppliers be on top like this for us? You know none of us have answered that question. We can say well it's to much money, it only works on a chevy, the firing order must be wrong on a chevy so that's why they changed. My guess is that someone decided to share it with us racers after it was old news to the GM pro stock guys.Why not make a buck. To many of us can't give an answer to the question cause we don't know the answer, but we just have to say something even though it does not answer the question. We have to thank the pro stock guys for giving us their technology. We wouldn't have half the performance stuff if it weren't for pro stock. Big heads, MSD ignition, tire compounds, carbs, and so on. When Nickins gets the hemi sorted out stuff will be available. They don't start sharing till its old news to them. Also there a lot more GM teams to flog the parts. Only a few Hemi teams, so that makes it tough. Oh, I think when you refer to a CD ignition the CD stands for capacitive discharge. All babies that grew up around cars knows that. CD, you got the answer to one of my post, Sluggish after releasing trans brake. I guess you learned how to read and understand the question before giving an answer. Take care CD.

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  #11  
Old 02-04-2001, 08:40 PM
GUAM SS/T GUAM SS/T is offline
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You are right. The answer to the real question is $$$$ we are the smallest segment of the market. Luckily we don't need as much improvement.
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  #12  
Old 02-04-2001, 10:44 PM
Sly Fox Sly Fox is offline
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The reason why the Chevy guys are constantly coming up with these ideas for their motors is because they are having a hard time catching us Mopar guys. Why do you think they all tremble in fear when the word "HEMI" is mentioned. Why doesn't Ma Mopar do something like this for us? She doesn't think she needs to. Like the old saying goes: Why fix something that isn't broken?
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2001, 11:26 PM
cdignition cdignition is offline
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IS that why were still sucking hind *** in prostock?...just look at who always wins....sometimes its the tree, but usually its the car .
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2001, 12:00 AM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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So the firing order on mopars and chevys is 18436572, what does the firing order become after the cam change. BTW some small block ford engines can have there firing orders changed easily by swapping cams. Check the listings in Crane and Comp Cams catalogs and you will see what I mean. I remember reading somewhere why ford engineers made this change, but I can't recall what it was. Some problem they couldn't fix any other way. Any body out there know?? djs
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  #15  
Old 02-05-2001, 02:51 AM
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The 289-302 ford firing order changes with a cam swap so you can run the 351w cam,to save $ thats all, no performance gain here by changing the order,also Mopars make tork by design,this wins races on the street no doubt,moves big heavy vehicles better etc but high rpm horsepower motors win races,I guess we'll see what Mother mopar has learned about HP soon in Nascar.....PRO...
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  #16  
Old 02-05-2001, 03:50 AM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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Point taken PRO, but I'm sure there is more than that to it. Just wish I could recall the article. At any rate, do you know what the new firing order is for the chevys with a Voodoo cam installed?
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  #17  
Old 02-05-2001, 06:11 AM
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There is a good thread on this same subject in the Drag Racing Forum.
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  #18  
Old 02-05-2001, 07:34 AM
Runner1971 Runner1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by cdignition:
IS that why were still sucking hind *** in prostock?...just look at who always wins....sometimes its the tree, but usually its the car .
well we started the season off with a runner up, i woundnt call that hind *** . prostock is the hardest class to run in, just making the field is pretty damn impressive.
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  #19  
Old 02-05-2001, 02:00 PM
Warren J Warren J is offline
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The standard firing order for big chevy is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Revised is 1-8-7-3-6-5-4-2, 7 and 4 are switched. Reher. Morrison said that it is changed to eliminate the fuel distribution and heat problems caused by #5 and #7 firing in succession. They say this is done so the two end cyl do not have to fight for fuel from the manifold plenum. As you guys know fuel cools the cyl, so if you are lean that causes higher heat. This information is in National Dragster, Jan 26 issue. The Dragster has many excellant articals about cyl flow and valve size, how to choose a class car and Warren Johnson and other engine builders write tech articals about engines, carbs, and susspension. You guys should suscribe just for this information. And guys ever since the Wayne County Mopar boys Nitros feasco, we haven't had a lot to cheer about in Pro Stock till Nickens. But it will take more than a year to be really competitive. Don't look at racing with tunnel vision, the GM'S aren't chasing the Hemi. Being proud should not get in the way of saying something st....

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  #20  
Old 02-05-2001, 05:46 PM
Dragracerr Dragracerr is offline
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OK….CD/WJ, The reason for altering the firing order is for better fuel charge distribution in the intake track. The 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 order creates a strong surge in the left rear corner of the intake. As mentioned this can have different influences on different port layouts and will help the Mopar BB standard head configuration using a tunnel ram more than a standard GM BB using a tunnel ram. A single plane 4brl. Intake will not reap as big a benefit however some/slight improvements can be detected. Usually it is cylinders 4 and 7 that get swapped.

You seem a little testy there WJ, any relation to the real WJ?

We all realize what CD stands for in the automotive world, I was curious however if this was associated with any personality traits
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  #21  
Old 02-05-2001, 06:05 PM
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MOPARMANJAMES MOPARMANJAMES is offline
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Warren J,I read that article, as soon as I read it, I noticed that they switched but cyl's 4 & 2 fire in succession, so doesn't this just move the problem around a little? Although they fire in the opposite direction of travel, i.e. from back to front.
The only advantage I could surmise was a smoother air flow pattern with only one large transition from 1 to 8, where the old firing order had two large transitions, the additional being from 7 to 2.
Also I agree that the fuel mixture cools the cylinder somewhat, but it is the burning of the lean mixture that heats the cylinder, not the lack of initial cooling from the intake charge, any baby that grew up around cars knows that nitrous cools the cylinder alot more than fuel, but look what happens when the mixture is wrong.
I'm with Runner1971, I think that we are competative now.
Hey Warren J, does the J stand for Johnson?
Did you say that the GM's weren't chasing the Hemi?
Speaking of our good buddy WJ, the crossdresser, I mean Professor of Pro-Stock, I believe he was chasing a Hemi on race day and he was in a GM as was Tom Martino and Mr. 6.70's Mark Pawuk. What was that about saying something ST****??
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2001, 10:17 PM
Warren J Warren J is offline
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Sorry to get away from the post question, but I just have to answer some of the skeptics. I think that CD and myself might be devils advocate. We both like Mopars, but we don't have blinders on either. The hemi had a good showing at Pomona, no question, and we aren't taking anything away from them. I think they have gotten competitive in a very short time. I haven't seen any thing on this Performance chat, including myself that would indicate to me that any of us could give Warren Johnson any tips on how to go fast that would conform to the NHRA rules. How many of us write tech articals for National Dragster? You may not like him or what he says at times, but he hasn't become the champ cause he's stupid. All the pro stock teams are chasing a championship. I don't get too excited about the first race as far as who will be chasing who. I do know this, Alderman was no 10 in points last year, and nine GM teams were ahead of him. So let me get this straight as far as what some of you are saying, the nine teams in front are chasing the no 10 guy. We all hope that the hemi does well, but I think that one of the hemi teams will probably be in the top 5, no championship this year. I am no relation to WJ the former champ, it was a nick name that a racer gave me after I drove his car.

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  #23  
Old 02-05-2001, 11:03 PM
Sly Fox Sly Fox is offline
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FYI....I was just being sarcastic in my last post. I'm proud, but not stupid.
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  #24  
Old 02-06-2001, 02:21 AM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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Gentlemen, somethings wrong, or there is more to this firing order switch than I can figure out. Now I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but if you take thirty seconds and draw out the two firing orders on paper, it's brutally apparent that the exact situation occurs on two different cylinders, just as MOPARMANJAMES said in his post. The cyl. nearest the carb, (#4) draws it's charge just before #2. I even tried this with a Ford firing order. And even though the cyls. are numbered in a different sequence (front to back instead of side to side) they still have the same deal with two cylinders. Does anyone REALLY know whats going on? djs
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2001, 02:43 AM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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Further on this subject, holley used to make a small block mopar intake known as the "Z" series which had an extra runner connecting cylinders 7 and 8 so that 7 could get some of it's charge from the #8 runner to avoid the possibility of a lean charge. I don't think it's available any more.
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  #26  
Old 02-06-2001, 02:50 AM
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Alderman was number nine last year, not ten and I think I mentioned three prostock racers, not nine, that were chasing him including WJ on Sunday and thats a fact jack. I don't write articles for National Dragster either but I don't take their word for Gospel, I believe in one recent article concerning myths of engine building they stated that connecting rod length had nothing to do with making horsepower and it made no difference as to piston dwell time around TDC. What!
Tell that to Grumpy Jenkins, Smokey Yunick, or D*** Landy, and you'll get run out of the shop! As for WJ, I didn't say he was stupid,
although he has said many stupid things in the past like we all do. Remember him calling the Dodges Jeeps! As for the original question of this post, I believe that it was answered several times, the parts diversity and availability is not the same as with a Chevy or GM. If you order from Summit or Jegs or Competition Products
you know that they don't carry alot of Mopar stuff in stock. So we look to smaller, specialty shops like Indy Cyl Heads or DLI for the good stuff. They dont have the budget to be producing things that most people won't buy. They haven't survived in the Mopar market by being stupid. As for this silly argument over the firing order, I think Dragracerr made an excellent point, backing up this point with a logical argument that the key reason to change the firing order is for an advantage in extreme
racing situations, 7500 rpm+, not for gaining 8 to 10 hp with a dual plane, 6000 rpm motor.
Most of us don't race in pro stock, and can't afford to build motors after every round. We try to build sound combinations and get the most out of our Blue Collar Dollar, But I'll tell you one thing, I sure love beating those trick of the week altered firing order chevies.
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  #27  
Old 02-06-2001, 03:07 AM
cdignition cdignition is offline
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Just run the .509 cam, and everything will be good........

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  #28  
Old 02-06-2001, 03:14 AM
Dragracerr Dragracerr is offline
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Lets try this one more time.. Imagine the pulses of the fuel charge.. with cylinders 5 and 7 firing at 90º apart or in other words one after the other the air fuel charge gets concentrated in that portion of the intake. This becomes a bigger problem on larger plenum intakes such as a tunnel ram. The single 4 manifolds have the plenum more centrally concentrated and less flow directional shift. If you follow the drag racing circuit you probably have heard of "split dominators" this was another approach to the same issue, the accomplishment here was to spread the fuel charge further apart and attempt to better induction alignment with the individual cylinders, the better running mountain motor cars(IHRA) were using the "splits" with the altered firing order. This technology has been around for 15+ years that I'm aware of and was privy only to a few cam grinders/engine builders. Due to R&D efforts, development engineers(at engine houses) found more in intake design and shelved the altered firing order on a temporary basis. The last 6 or 7 years the altered firing order has resurfaced in attempts to squeeze any additional amount of grunt possible from the already well refined combinations. This kind of stuff goes in surges, no successful R&D program will explore too many avenues without fully refining the task at hand, once they think they are there, they will move on and then come back to what they have learned to see if any additional tweaking from the established baseline will help.
I can only hope I covered this with enough clarity, yet remained in the layman’s world for all to understand. This much key boarding was extremely painful after the day I had at work. If this still seems gibberish I'll attempt to reproach later, after all, we are here to help each other and I realize not every body speaks the same language or possesses the same level of experience
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Old 02-06-2001, 03:17 AM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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cdignition, do you run the 509 in all your lawn care equipment too?????
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  #30  
Old 02-06-2001, 03:19 AM
Dragracerr Dragracerr is offline
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MOPARJAMES---THANK GOD AND THANK YOU, (someone that can read, and understand what he has read)
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