-chattering- coming from 318

[truckin]

hello. i'm new to this place and have been learning a lot here! well let me cut to the chase...

i have been hearing a chattering noise from the 318 2brl in my 85 chrysler 5th ave. recently and its slowly getting worse. it was doing this after acceleration and right when it shifts to the next gear i would hear it till it caught the gear. now its doing it almost all the time under any 1/4 throttle or more. this motor has 170k on it and seems to be all original. so i can imagine it could be a lot of things in there. but i was guessing something in valve train because its fast paced chattering. like valve float mabey? or does that destroy stuff if a valve floats. weak valve springs, worn lifters or cam? i going to replace the head gaskets and other things on the car soon and wondered if mabey i could fix this.. i'm sure its time for a full rebuild but this has been my daily driver for 3 years and i'd like to see if i can squeze a few more 1000K out of it. besides, any money i have is going towards tires for the ol' truck i just dropped a new 350 in.

"few" more things ... i'm not to familiar with how mopar has things done under the hood. i have a big computer on the side of my air cleaner with a vacume hose run into it. i would like to take the emissions off this car and bring it down to basic motor... can someone sum up with this electronic spark control is? cant i just hook up the coil and distributor and it will work? what is the firing order for a 318 mopar? clockwise or counter-cw rotation? can i get rid of the computer in this car? i have unplugged the carb harness and it doesnt seem to affect gas milage or anything. wondering what else i can unplug.. mabey some other things you guys can tell me that may differ from a chevy motor which i'm accustomed to, when i replace these head gaskets, timing chain... thanks a bunch folks. i think this should keep me busy for a while!

...truckin!

[dewme5]

when you start hearing the chattering, pull off to the side of the road... parking lot.. driveway.. whatever, just try to keep it level still. pull off the oil fill cap, and look at your rocker arms. There should be puddles of oil in each and every one that you can see. and they should be full.. over flowing. if you pop that cap, look in there, and see no puddles, or very little. you have an oil problem. don't suppose you have an oil pressure guage. not the idiot light, but a mechanical guage?

with enough miles, bearing clearances wear out. oil pumps wear out. etc etc.

it's a simple check, and one that you should do before you put to many more miles on it.

if that checks all good, then you will probalbly want to pull of your valve covers, and look at the condition of your springs, and such. nothing broke, bent, damaged.

Valve float should not be happening at 1/4 throttle unless your springs are not even there!

if all else works out good. oil pressure, valve train.. throw in some marvel mystery oil, and see if that helps

[goldduster]

the electronic spark control is a computer that takes readings from many sensors and adjusts timing accordingly.

Compared to a regular Mopar Electronic Ignition, the distributor is totally different.

To convert to Mopar Electronic Ignition, you need a distributor, Wiring harness, and ECU. Mopar sells a kit, though a boneyard distributor, Mopar Harness ($20) and ECU from the parts store would be much cheaper.

[cudacarl]

One quick inexpensive thing to try is to pull the valve covers and retorque the rocker arms to make sure they aren't loose. I think spec is 200 inch lbs. I worked with a guy who had an old dodge 3/4 ton with high miles and that did the trick. It would explain why its getting louder.

[dl79]

Hey Truckin,

[dl79]

Hey Truckin,
This could be something as simple as oil or filter needing changed, or oil filter partially collapsed causing restriction. That's where I would start, by changing the oil and filter, then go from there. Good luck!

[truckin]

you must have a certain way to set valve lash on mopar? hot lash set, or at heel of cam lobe and 0 lash give them 1/4-1/2 turn preload... mine may be getting loose, i hear one in there tick in the morning for a few seconds.

i swear, its a real PITA just to get the valve covers off this motor, it has the a/c compressor and hoses run across the top along with a bunch of other stuff. thats why if i dig that far, i might as well keep going to the head gaskets and timing chain..

the carb doesnt seem adjustable in any way except the choke. i think it needs a rebuild too, i would like to get a 4 barrel for it but i would need a new air canister and hood clearance is a big issue with this car. seems like the way they crammed all that stuff in there, there is not much room for improvement. like headers - doesnt appear to be enough room even for some huggers. oh well.

the ol' motor doesnt seem to wind up very fast anymore, dunno what this could be. kinda weak too. it has held up great though since 1985. grandparents bought it new -lots of highway miles and grocery getting. i have had it for 3 years now - everyday driver. i think the 318 is one tough motor or 85 was a good year. car has been to hell and back since i got it.. offroading, high revving, couple wrecks, and plenty more still rides real smooth. definate cruiser!

...Truckin!

[bigblue]

truckin,

i would check the rocker arms first then look at the ignition system

i have an 85 chevy pickup (sorry guys!!) that has an electronic spark control and i found the knock sensor was not hooked up and it was causing the exact same symptoms

at the top of a gear it would start to clatter a bit then just after the shift it would clatter like hell till it built some rpms up then start over at the top of the next gear again
and it eventually got worse to were it did it all the time...but on my truck i could never get it to do it while parked and just revving the motor (which may or may not eliminate rocker arms)


for me the clatter was actually spark knock/detonation
i also thought it was something in the valvetrain at first cause i had never heard spark knock that clattered like that


sorry to be long winded
hope this helps

[truckin]

ok, assume the knock sensor is not bad, i take it a loose timing chain with 170k on 'er might cause this chattering noise too?

.. Truckin!

[dewme5]

it's just time for a rebuild.. how man more miles you want out of an engine???

[truckin]

well its still running, and pretty smooth, just that chattering noise... i figure it'll go a few more K.. waiting till it throughs a rod or bearing...

.. Truckin!

[Best Machine]

Truckin
I have owned a lot of mopars with lean burn,that is what that box on your air cleaner is called. The noise you are hearing is spark knock.The reson for the noise is the computer is over advacing the timing this also causes low power or a sluggish engine. I would say the noise sounds like marbles in your engine. You either need to replace you computer or install a mopar performance electronic conversion kit. I recomend the mopar kit,it`s not hard to convert over you change the dist and mount the ing box and run the wire`s. It is a 2 wire hook up one to neg coil and the other to switched side of voltage regulator,Set your timing and your good to go. You will also notice the engine crank over faster after converting.


www.BestMachineRacing.com

[PRO]

Your describing a text book symptom of a failed rocker arm,where it receives the pushrod,the cup will eventually give way and allow the pushrod to ram right thru it causing a chattering,it a simple inexpensive fix but I would change all the rockers as there usually worn out around 120K............PRO.........

[truckin]

i can probly get some 'new' rocker arms at the junkyard for $10 or 15 bucks. this is the kind of budget i'm on for the 5th ave... what little money i have atm is going to the truck. it does sound like marbles getting knocked around in there. and if it is spark knock id hate to drive the car anymore, but it is my only means of transportation. i really dont have anywhere to go right now -no job- so i may be able to borrow some money to get it fixed, how much might it be to replace/convert the ignition? does the computer control anything else besides the timing? does it do any better adjusting the timing, compared to the non computer controlled version... is it really -worth- it? supposedly the computer was changed not too long before i got the car 2-3 years ago. was rather expensive too if i remember correctly. i will be grannying it but sometimes it acts worse than others.. even at light throttle i can hear it. far as i know running it will no oil/water and detonation is the worst things you can do to a motor. but like i said, this is one tough motor! i think it'll be alright if i convert it or something...

just got new tires for the truck today, all i need is registration!!

.. Truckin!

[cuda66273]

170,000 miles! quit wasting all you time and money, you've got internal failure.
You might find something that can be fixed...but it's just a bandaid....the next weakest link will fail.
Find a reputable rebuilder and buy a short block and set of heads, do a little port matching swap all you goodies over to it and drop it in.

A decent long block here costs around $800 and it will take you a full weekend to do the swap...about the same time or less than it'll take you to change headgaskets and timing chain.

Hey, it's an '85....my nieghbor has a 75 Dart /6 for sale, 42,000 miles, new brakes and runs excellent! $400.00

I know this car well I've been doing the repairs on it for about a year...solid. If was a V8 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Your call

Don

[cudacarl]

I've got a '78 dodge magnum with a 360 Lean burn that has 246K on the original motor. I bought it 9 years ago with 88k and it's been my daily driver and moved me from N.Y. to florida. Unless you are burning a lot of oil or have a spun bearing, i wouldn't rebuild only because of chattering and high miles. Just take your valve covers off and see whats going on in there what could it take an hour? On my 'cuda i've been able to run the motor at low idle when the covers were off without splashing all that much oil just don't rev it up. My magnum originally had the dreaded "Sparkomatic" but it was long gone when i bought it. It had been switched to points but i switched it to the electronic ignition like my 'cuda. Made a huge difference. Much easier starting in the winter. It's real easy to hook up and is not that expensive being you get the E.C.U. , The Wiring harness & the distributer. I think it now costs around $120. If its not the rockers, could be lifters. - Good Luck

[leon441]

I would check the rockers first. I had a high mileage 360, same difference, the rockers were wore out around the shaft. It was very noisy. If you go to a junkyard you'll need rockers off a pre magnum engine 91' and older. Make sure the rockers are not sloppy on the shaft. Magnum engines have stud mount rockers and will not work. You do not need to worry about "lash" actually lifter preload on a hydraulic cam. If this is not your problem my second guess is the timing chain. What happens is the silencing material that coats the gear has worn off and the chain has so much slack it is smacking the timing cover. A 318 will "run" forever if it gets a good double row timing chain replacement. And do yourself a favor remover the oil pan and clean out all the material that used to be on the timing gears.

[5thAve]

I got a bit of lifter noise on my Fifth Ave's 360 right now. Always seems to come around this time of year. I hope the additive works because I don't want to do too much more right now.. I'll probably try torquing the rocker shaft or try changing the rocker and see if that makes a difference. The engine has ~80,000mi on it right now.

The valve covers aren't all that bad, the hardest part of the job is to get the screw/bolt that's behind the power brake booster. It's not like a chevy, you can't just tighten each rocker arm down till the noise stops (and quite often on them that's not needed because the hardware has gone loose, but becasue the cam has started to wear). If compression is decent a new cam and lifters should solve the problem, but that's even harder to do with the AC condensor there.

[truckin]

well i beleive someone told me the torque spec in a previous reply, but is there a procedure for making sure the cam in on the heel of the lobe? i'm guessing follow the firing order? one of the few things i can do now is reset the lifter preload.. quite a few different opinions here... worn rockers sounds promising. i may replace the oil pump for good measure and get an actual guage instead of the idiot light. i check the fluids almost everyday before i start it and it may burn a quart of oil or less over the course of 3-5 months or so. i'm pretty sure the head gaskets are leaking because its moistening the ground below the exhaust and before it warms up you can actually feel little drops of water out the pipe. it usually needs water once every two weeks. i really havent driven it too much lately.

on a good note, the truck is on the road and i think i'll pull the 5th ave up in the garage for a few days to see whats going on. unfortunately in the other port of the garage my roommate has my only 2 jackstands holding up his 76 firebird with no front suspension so i'll have to jimmy rig up something to hold that heavy car up and drop that oil pan and see how it looks in the lower end.

one last thing while you guys are reading this =] .. does your breather ever get saturated with oil? mine has a hose coming off it running into the air filter case where about a two weeks ago oil made its way up there and ruined a one month old expensive K&N air filter!! i have since replaced and left the breather open and plugged the hole on the side of the filter. i'm going to put it back though because the breather is blowing out a little smoke that really stinks when you have the heat or a/c on! I thought the breather was supposed to -Suck- air.... the pcv is fine, fresh hose and pcv rattles when shook. i can see smoke coming out the breather though... hope this isnt too bad of a sign and the rings are wearing out or something.

thanks for reading these books i wrote folks and giving me some insight. gonna replace the rockers first thing, then timing chain+head gaskets, and then see what needs to be done. this is a great highway/city car, very comfortable, cruise control, has heat, a/c, tows my 3 wheeler out to the woods, and they dont even bother to pop the hood for inspection. thats why i want to hang on to it, and the fact its a mopar and has proved itself to me its one tough SOB!

.. Truckin

[5thAve]

The dampness from the exhaust is normal depending on the humidity and weather. It's moisture from the system that's coming out. Are you needing to add coolant because the headgaskets are gone or because it's going into the overflow and not coming back? If the head gaskets are gone the antifreeze will either find it's way into the oil (which will turn into a milkshake looking think) or into the cylinders, in which case when you pull a plug it'll look different then normal and you'll usually smell a sweet smell as it's burnt. If it's getting into your oil you got problems cause it doesn't mix too well, that might be what's causing things. Don't use it until you check into things further because it doesn't take much of that to wreck an engine.

The breather again depends on weather. Around here it's not unusual to see some 'smoke' coming from it from a bit of cold weather mositure in the engine. But if it's actually clogging your air filter with oil that's not usually good. My dead 318 had so much of that the air filter was actually floating in oil. The carb wasn't a pretty sight at all either.

[truckin]

the overflow is functioning and there is no water in the oil. i flushed the coolant under year ago when i replaced the radiator hoses and egr. about 5 months ago the carb started flooding out due to faulty float so i put another one from the boneyard on it and it ran fine again. 2 weeks later i ran carb cleaner through it, and this slowly started developing: it started moistening the ground and turning it black. and it hesitates a little at 1/4 throttle. i either flash it to 1/2 throttle and let off some or -slowly- let it build up speed... this 'hesitation' is nasty'in 20 deg. weather and i have to babysit the car till right when or right before it hits operating temp and it'll idle itself - if its the first start of the day. the choke appears to be functioning properly. till it warms up it'll only run from around 1500-3000 rpm or it'll stall, even above that it'll slow down and stall unless i let off the gas and bring it back to 2000 or so. i dont need all this emission stuff and i'd imagine thats making it worse - suplimenting fresh air for 170 thousand miles of exhaust fumes and carbon. i've changed the fuel filter plenty of times - mabey sending unit clogged? i've ran marvel gas treatment through it a few times too with no avail. the hesitation is really bad in cold weather but not too bad in warmer weather.... past week its been 70 deg. outside here and more of it in the next week i beleive. we had a taste of cold weather recently and i noticed this problem when i drove off like i normally do and get to the stop sign and the car died (2nd time it ever died since the bad carb).... warmed it up and had little to no hesitation. it hesitates worse when it rains too but no problems getting it warmed up. the hesitating i'm describing is actually like the motor stumbling... it has had new wires/cap/button/coil/egr, and 2 fuel filters since i ran the carb cleaner through it... that stuff is evil, i'll never use it again on a high milage motor thats never tasted it. i must have clogged something up somewhere. gonna do a compression check when i bring it in the garage in a couple days.

[cuda66273]

12 cents a pound....
You've wasted enough time and money on that worn out old Dodge.
Thats Blow By...your rings are shot and you've got carb choke problems.

There just comes a time when your better off finding another car...

[truckin]

cuda, i -do not- beleive its blow by, the oil wasnt coming out the carb, it made its way up through the breather on the valve cover and the air filter kept it from getting to the carb. the carb and around the inside the filter is clean, the oil was outside the air filter, mostley around where the breather taps in. i havent had this problem since i disconnected that from the filter case and the breather is fine, i havent stepped on the gas really though lately.. i fired it up today for the first time in 4 days, one pump on the gas and it fired right up, didnt even hear a rocker tick. the motor runs so smooth you wonder if its still running sometimes when the tunes are on at a stop light but sure enough it is. the motor has only died on me twice in 3 years or so, when the old carb broke and a couple weeks ago when it got to about 20 deg here and it wasnt warmed up when i drove off... it ran fine last winter. i will continue to drive this car into the ground if it is in deed on its last leg. i will take the gamble of spending 100-200 bucks on new gaskets and a timing chain and rockers because i wouldnt be surprised if i got another couple 10K out of it or more with easy miles. i would be able to sell it for more than scrap if the motor runs. if it doesnt well i'll get some back for scrapping it or mabey someone will want it. i beleive she still wants to run! ol' bettsy hasnt let me down yet.

.. Truckin

[5thAve]

The oil coming from the breather is from blowby, it's not noticeable in with the filter now because you no longer have it connected.

I wouldn't bother changing the rockers and certainly wouldn't bother using junk yard ones. They'd be worn too and it wouldn't be nearly as effective as using new ones. For the timing chain there is a way to check it for slack, if a new one isn't needed it's not worth changing it unless you feel like doing something.

If I were you I'd have someone set the carb & choke right and I'd keep driving it until it dies. Then if the body is in decent shape and you want to keep drivng it you can either get a used or rebuilt engine in it depending on how much you want to spend and how much use you plan on getting out of it.

[truckin]

i do take the car offroad and get at some odd angles, one place we go, i drive over a hill with my left tire up top on the way in.. pretty steep hill. breather is on the right. gotta give it some gas as i go over... we party and camp out there quite a bit. i was hoping this was why.