small block duster buildup plans revealed!!!

[dusterbd]

alright, my general idea for the duster is this:

11's, naturally aspirated, street drivable quite regularly. needs to be done with a small block, power steering, and semi stock chassis. so in my guestimation, and a little help of this board, im going to need about 500 horse. to do this, im thinking of a couple of engine combinations.
1. stock stroke 360, .030 over, fully ported and polished performer RPM heads (as done by hughes), 10.5 compression, edelbrock performer RPM intake, 800 edelbrock carb, tti step headers and three inch exhaust. huge friggen cam.
2. same as above, but with Indy's new W-2 based heads and intake, again fully polished and ported.
3. stroked to 408, with the rest the same as option 2.

my question is this: with the 4" cast crank, can i use my stock rods? do they offer pistons for this combo? what horsepower level should they be ok to?

anyone have any further suggestions for this buildup? ill be putting the power through a four gear to a 3.55 or 3.91 rear gear, 275/60/15 tires or 28x10 slicks. the rear suspension will have either cal tracs or ssm lift bars, 340 springs, and air shocks. subframes tied, all required safety mods performed.

if yall can think of anything i missed, lemme know.
mike

[71 scamp]

I wouldn't do the edelbrock carb thing, go with a speed demon or a holley HP series. I'd ditch the power steering, especially with skinny front tires. The Indy heads would definitely help! I believe if you buy a stroker kit it will come with the correct pistons and rods.
Do they sell SSM lift bars for mopars? I emailed Landrum to see if their $39 monoleafs would work with caltrac bars. Caltrac recommends a 200 pound monoleaf.

[dusterbd]

why not go with the edelbrock? ive always had nothing but problems with holleys, and ive never heard anything but good about edelbrock, so what gives?
also, they do make lift bars for mopars. the ramchargers outta detroit sell them. dot recall the price.
so you think #2 would pull off my 500 horse goal? any other engines i should consider? whatd you do to get yours in the 11's?
thanks 71 scamp
mike

[70AARCuda]

yes..you can use stock rods...but look into the eagle I beam rods..very nice rods for the price...selling for 239.
what ever rod you use you will need to notch the bottom of the bores for rod clearance


pistons are availabe from Ross, or KB.

[freak007]

or...how about

option 3...

360 rebuilt with 10:1 compression flat top cast pistons,rebuilt factory rods. Factory windage tray installed.915,2.02" heads with competition valve job and ported to flow 260 cfm(if you don't have 915's you can also use '974, '308, '576, '894, '051, '587, and '596's). Edelbrock RPM intake, port/gasket matched. Holley H.P. 750 (.076" front, .080" rear jets). Large 1 3/4" primary tube headers. Comp Cams 305AH-8 camshaft with .525"/.540" lift and 305/312 degree advertised duration, 253/260 degrees @ .050", 110 lsa, installed at 108 intake centerline.
495 h.p. @ 6,000 rpm
500 lbs. of torque @ 4,500 rpm



or read this article...it has several options....
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/index.html

[dusterbd]

ummm...freak007: that link took me to a page about chevy crate engines. interesting, but not what im going for. that engine combo sounds real good. have you built it, or get that combo from someone else? if you did build it, let me know, because that sounds real good, so ill want to ask you a few more questions.
thanks, yall
mike

[71 scamp]

The speed demon carbs are awesome and will perform a little better than an edelbrock. My 340 is .030 over, recon. stock rods, stock crank, 557 MP solid cam, 1 3/4 headers, ported edelbrock heads, ductile adj. rockers, rpm air gap intake gasket matched, one inch open carb spacer, windage tray, 750 speed demon with 74-81 jets, 3100 pound car, very streetable.

[cuda66273]

The more cubic inches you start with the less radical the motor will have to be to achieve your goals.

Stroke the 360, call Huggins and have him grind you a nice hydraulic roller cam. This will allow you to get good HP and tork in a lower RPM range and make the car more street drivable with that 4 gear.

You can use your stock rods but it will take a good set of custom pistons, look at a forged pistons over the hypereutectics. There's lot's of good piston companies out there, I prefer Arias, but it's your choice.

I will presume that your going to run this on pump gas so watch your C/Ratio use a MSD or Crane box and be sure and wire in a rev limiter, a missed shift could get expensive.

You should be able to hook it up with the 10" slicks and the 3.91 gear with some launch practice. Get yourself a set of 30" or taller street tires to lower your RPM on highway trips.

If you plan on bracket racing you'll have to do some serious shifting exercises, consistancy is the name of the game and it's tough to beat a Lupo 727 at game a that they perfected. If it was me, and it isn't so do what YOU want, I'd be swapping out that clutch for a Dynamic 727 with a Lupo Sportsman 3000-3500 convertor, it's gonna be a stump puller anyhow so the lower stall won't hurt you much and the heat build-up should be managable, you did say "Street Car" right?

Be sure to pay attention to your oil water and tranny cooling, fuel delivery and electrical systems.

I have to agree with 71 Scamp on the carb thing, Edelbrock makes a nice carb but for your application you'll need a larger CFM and more tuneable piece to achieve your goals.

That's about it, you seem to have all the odds and ends figured out so now it's time to get out the BIG checkbook, the little pocket ones won't cut it here.

[freak007]

sorry...that was the wrong link,try this one instead...

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/...907/index.html


as for that engine...it is not one that I built,but I have seen what it does on both the street and strip,it IS streetable,but you need deep gears and a high stall converter...the powerband is almost identical to that of the engine bulit for test 4 in the edelbrock story...if it were me,I would be running it with a 3000-3500 stall,4.30 gears,and 275/65/15 tires(10.5x29),for consistancy,I would also run the 727 auto...,BUT IF you are consistant in shifting and IF you want to spend the extra money to do it,you COULD put in a Muncie close ratio useing a flywheel that Summit sells (apx $190) I believe it is manufactured by CSI,I do not know the ratio of MoPars 4 speeds but I would get one with as close a ratio possible,with either the stick or auto,shift at 6000 every time...


this may have confused you more than helped...but what the hell....I will read this again when I am sober and try to help better... :

[PRO]

11s with a 360....no prob in a 3100 a body,simple actually,mine is a 10:1 mp short block($1200) with Edelbrock heads($1270) just add a windage tray,oil pan and pump and p/u tube,a balancer and rpm air gap with a 800 holley,1.75 headers,with mild gearing(3.23s) and dot tires and thru the exhaust on 91 octane its gone 12.58 at 4600 ft of elevation,with slicks,open headers and gears it will 11.50s up here.Whats nice is this only has a 509 hyd cam,runs beautiful temp even in the summer with only a 2 row radiator.Its even gotten 18 mpg hwy!! Id prefer main studs and hd rod bolts,although the short blocks hardware are new........PRO......

[freak007]

with my setup I assumed it would have APX 430 rear wheel horse power,my calculator estimated this performance with a 3100 pound car...
Estimated 1/4 mile ET: 11.25
Estimated 1/4 mile MPH:121.21
Estimated 1/8 mile ET:7.6
Estimated 1/8 mile MPH:97.90

[cuda66273]

freak
I think your calculater blew a diode..LOL
Your ET is probably pretty close but I would put your MPH a little lower...say 112-115.

So Duster when are you gonna turn off the computer and turn on the air wrenchs?

I'm anxious to see how this project pans out.

[freak007]

your right...I typed it wrong...it was 112.21 :P

I would LOVE to build this car...unfortunatly it is not mine,and my budjet won't allow for it right now ohh well.....

[cuda66273]

I hear ya...
I don't even want to guess what I've got invested in the Cuda.
As much fun as these race cars are they are expensive!

I thought about golf once...just once

$2500 for Club initiation fee's
$1200 in annual dues
$1200 for clubs
$200 a month for club house dues
$75 a round
minimun of 20 balls per round

Can't take the Red Dog, can't wear jeans, can't wear a NASCAR hat, no racing T-Shirts allowed, No camping on the course, No racing carts, no, no no no no no.....what a drag..oh and none of that either.

Like I said, I thought about it once...for about 2 minutes...what a crock of $hit, just to whack at a ball with a stick? I'd rather whack the old lady at least she whacks back.

[Tony W]

Dusterbd, for the little extra that a 4" cast crank costs, I would suggest that, either way you build, the motor needs re-balanced. The Eagle I beam rods are a step up over stock (they are new) but still only recomended for 450 h.p. by Eagle, actually they are RPM limited like the 340/360 rods. If motor will not go over 6,500, either stock or Eagle I beam will work fine.

freak007 shows a combo that works! Go look here: www.geocities.com/alwest_83/dyno

This page shows several dyno tested motors, go to the last one and you will see the dyno run for that combo, it was tested at Indy Cylnder Head a couple years ago and it works. With 4.30/4.56 gears and a 3,500 minimum stall, it will stick any A body into the 11's easily.

The new Indy heads look good. The Indy 360-1 are oval port W2 style with closed chambers, the 360-2 are rectangle port like W5 heads but early ported 360-2 heads I have seen flow tested were not any better than MP iron W2 ported heads. The new Indy intake is the best for the W2 available. Instead of throwing money into factory iron heads, step up to W2 heads, even the econo line. They are way better and with little work will flow way better than the factory OEM ported heads or even ported Eddys. Overall you can setup W2 econo heads for less than buying Eddys. You will need W2 headers or modify LA headers. With econo W2 heads, you will need new rocker arms but the stands are cast in which saves money.

[rumblefish360]

TonyW, have you had that 318/330hp engine in a car? I was wondering about the mileage you had gotten out of it. As well as how full the port job work was. If you had them flowed to what cfm etc.

thanks rumblefish360

[Tony W]

The 330 h.p. 318 with ported 302 heads was a motor setup and dyno ran at Indy Cylinder Head. Porting was gasket matching and tapered in, basic pocket porting, valve guide smoothing/tapering and runner cleanup. Basic port and polish with no major redesigning the ports. I don't have flow cfm numbers but would expect around 200-215 cfm.

My old 318 was the 290 h.p. version with 360 heads BUT I did NOT mill the heads which kills the compression (7.8:1) but it ran good! It liked the timing set at 36 degrees. I ran it with a Holley 600, Carter AVS 625 and a 850 TQ. The AVS and TQ ran better than the Holley did. I got 12-14 mpg with a 904 and 3.55 rearend, I ran it pretty hard too.

The ported 302 heads will flow almost as much as 360 heads but with greater velocity which fills the chamber better. Now, if I would have milled my head to get 9.5:1 compression, the h.p. numbers would have been a little closer.

[freak007]

boy do I hear ya cuda...as my best friend put it...If there isn't at least a 10% chance of killing myself,I am not interested :P,and besides...I see no sence in chaseing this ITTY BITTY ball over 100+ acres trying to knock it into an equally ITTY BITTY hole...

[dusterbd]

i agree on the golf topic. it just aint right for me. anyway, the advice you guys are giving me sounds real good. makes me wanna skip tuition payments and go REALLY fast. unfortunately, that cant happen, so oh well. ill do it in steps. first up is the chassis and body prep. according to you guys, the suspension plan i have sounds pretty good. thats real good, cause half of its already under the car. makes it cheaper. asfor the engine, i need to start putting money into the big checkbook, and then go have a ball.
about the four gear: all you guys(except freak007. a muncie? in a mopar?) talked about an auto. that just takes the fun and adventure out of driving a fast car, at least in my book. anyway, i already have the transmission. and its in the car and working. but is there a problem with a four gear? other than successful launching, i mean.
are there any upgrades that im missing in the overall plan? i have the engine kinda thought out, and the chassis mostly done, am i missing anything? i know ill have to have a stout cooling system, and the brakes are up to snuff, but is there anything else?
im not trying to sound stupid or uninformed, im just trying to sort this all out in my head and on paper before i start in with the torches and wrenches. after all, i cant make too many mistakes and tuition too. (after alll, the S.O.B.'s just raised it again.....)
thanks a lot for the help, guys.
mike

[freak007]

I know I sound crazy...but yes I said a munci in a MoPar,CSI makes a flywheel special for bolting a chevy trans to a mopar engine...

another option,especially for a street car is a Richmond 4+1 5 speed,with the 3.27 first and 3.55 rear gears,it won't perform QUITE as well as the Muncie with 4.30's,but will get better mileage because of the 3.55s out back...here is a comparison (with final drive ratio) shift points are done useing the power curve of the engine I suggested,torque loss is at the drive shaft......


Richmond MuncieCR

First 3.27(11.61) 2.20(9.46)
Second 2.13(7.56) 1.64(7.05)
Third 1.57(5.57) 1.28(5.50)
Fourth 1.23(4.37) 1.00(4.30
Fifth 1.00(3.55)


Shift points...

Richmond

Best shift point for the 1-2 shift is 6000 with a LOSS of 397 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 2-3 shift is 6000 with a LOSS of 144 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 3-4 shift is 6000 with a LOSS of 69 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 4-5 shift is 5500 with a LOSS of 69 Lb/Ft of torque.


Muncie

Best shift point for the 1-2 shift is 6000 with a LOSS of 139 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 2-3 shift is 6000 with a LOSS of 74 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 3-4 shift is 6000 with a LOSS of 58 Lb/Ft of torque.

[rumblefish360]

Thanks TonyW.