R3 Block

[RonsDirt]

Just wondered who might be using the R3 block and what they thought of it.
Any Info or input would be apperecated.

[355 racer]

I have been running the R3, will be the 3rd. year starting tomorrow. Can't say enough about the overall performance of the motor. It is installed in my late model, we run the W2 race heads, and are limited to 9.4-1 CR, wet sump,Holly 4412 alcohol, roller cam & rockers, oil thru shafts, run about 23 races, (20-25 laps )plus heats and mud laps,no tare down in between. Very solid motor with excellent torque range.
Harry

[B1]

i have an R3 block in my duster. When i got it, i compared it to a 360 block, and boy what a difference! I got the 48 tappet block, stock deck height, non-siamese 4 bolt main. its a 4.00 stroker, bored .030 over, roller cam, 10.5 compression, W5 heads and going to try the new Indy intake someday. this engine is so predictable and consistent, its almost boring! Well, almost.

Brian

[RonsDirt]

Mopar delivered my R3 this afternoon, I am updating from a R1.
Reason for update is need to have a solid bottom end as planing on adding W9 heads later.
Current specs are as follows. Mopar billet crank, Cunningham 4340 Rods, 700 Lift Comp Cam, Peaterson 4 stage dry sump, JE pistons. Ported 48 deg. W2 heads, T&D rockers. I have been running the R1 for 3 years. 2 Blocks and 3 cranks later I am still having Oiling problems. Was running a Limited Late model but built a Pro car over the winter. Here is the thing!!! as long as I keep the RPM at 8000-8200 it lives, but as soon as I turn it up to 8500 she blows. I have slotted the mains, added oiling holes for the rods, drilled ever oil hole in the block as far as I dare. Am I asking too much? I used to run a chev years ago up to 9000 and never burnt out rods. (Blowed the mains right out of the block one time). Compresson is at 13.5 on alcohol. Is anybody building a Intake that will fit W2 heads and allow me to use the Dry sump input hole in the front of the R3? Should I Scavage the lifter gally or drill drain back holes? I use a outside machine shop, but build the engine my self. (no one to blame but me when it blows) I have been a mechanic for over 40 years so I hope I know what I'm doing. I check ALL clearences 2-3 times before I assemble, so I don't think I'm missing anythng. I know the WC boys are running 2" rods, is that the answer?
OK help is needed, any ideas?

[sanborn]

Ron, we have been using the original"R" block for several years with success in an unlimited Dirt Late Model car, even ran the HavATampa circuit for two years on a limited basis. Consistently turned 8600 up to 9200 when necessary. No oiling problems. We went to aluminum blocks 3 years ago because of weight not reliability.

We used LA Billet and Bryant cranks, Mopar cranks (billet only-if done by Moldex) are probably OK. We use Carillo and Lentz rods (Cunningham are probably OK, don't know anything about them). Use Mopar Performance Clevite "H" bearings. Several things you may not know, you MUST oil the block from both ends if you are going to turn 8200-8800 (hooked up) consistently. Note! I can tell you a sorry story about that, we bought our first aluminum block, Mopar engineers swore on a stack of Bibles we only needed to oil from front, went to Charlotte starved it for oil @9200 in 8 laps, scratch one block, billet crank, rods and pistons, etc. Mopar engineers may be good engineers but they sure aren't racers. And you need oiling slots in your main bearing saddles(they also said we didn't need to do that). We use fairly straight forward bearing clearances, .0025" on mains,.0020" on 2" rod journals, .0022" on 2.100 journals. Use standard Kendall 20W50 oil(don't like synthetic, blues the rod small ends, doesn't hurt it but it worries me)

Exactly what type of failures are you experiencing?

About the rod journal size, yes the Nascar guys are using 2", but they were also using 1.88, 1.84 and even 1.80" IRL size bearings. Forget about anything smaller than 2", and forget about 2" if you are using a stroke longer than 3.300"(not enough journal overlap). Nascar rules state this year 2.100" rod journals for Cup engines. They went to those small journals in order to get those cranks down to 36 lbs. Those little journals will break like pretzels on a hooked(and rough) dirt track. For what it's worth, Nascar is also using 2.25" mains. Don't do it for the same reason. You can get a good, sturdy 2.100" journal crank to weigh 42-44 lbs with no problem.

I will be glad to help any way I can. Contact me direct at sanborn@cafes.net if you like.

[RonsDirt]

Sanborn,
You are saying just what I thought was wrong. Some where the oil volume is not enough to supply oil to the rods at hight RPM. I did not know about oiling both ends. I guess you mean use the hole under the filter base and also feed from the hole up front.
Which brings up a problem, how to plumb the hole up front. Can I just Tee from my Dry sump to both ends? I think I can cut up my Victor manifold and put the fitting up front unless there is a bettor way. I have been running .0025 on both rods and mains, you say run .0022 on rods? The problem has allways been burnt rod brg.s If I shut down in time the mains usually are OK. I am running the slot (about 5/8") and two .0125 holes about a inch from crank deck. H brgs. on rods and EVER main set from clevitte and Mopar.
The MS1344P from clevitte seem to do the best(Fully Groved).
I run 80 psi. with Royal Purple RC41 synthetic (10W40), tried other stuff but did not help, I mean like Castrol 20W50 which I think is the best mineral oil. Any thought on the Lifter Galley?
How can I tell if I have a Moldex crank? Cunningham builds a 2 peice rod, meaning the cap is cross grained from the rod. It's not a 1 peice cracked cap. Strong and not too heavy.

If you don't mind lets keep this on the web as I'm sure there are other's out there like me that need this info.
Thanks ,
Ron

[sanborn]

We feed the front of the engine with a 1/2"NPT #12 hose fitting, the back is fed with a 3/8NPT #10. But, we don't go into the original oil filter boss. We drilled/tapped the original oil pressure boss for 3/8 NPT. Both fittings are straight up on top of block. We ran two oil feed lines from the remote oil filter. Feeding the back from the top eliminates one 90 degree turn of the oil(compared to the oil filter boss). If you want to get really slick, screw a fitting directly into the back of the main oil galley in back of the block. Drill your Bert/Brinn bellhousing to allow a long fitting to extend through the bellhousing and connect your rear oil feed line there. You will find the fitting comes out inside your dry sump belt. But you have enough clearance. That eliminates another 90 degree turn.

Ron, if you are using .0025" rod bearing clearance you are probably OK, I just like tighter clearances, I don't think I get as much bearing chatter at high RPMs. Remember the reason you are burning rod bearings is you are not getting enough oil to them at high RPMs. You are experiencing oil flow/pressure drop inside the oil galley. Feeding from both ends will probably eliminate that. That's also the reason you are having better success with full groove mains-it gives the rods a better chance to get fed. I don't like full groove mains because it reduces the bearing support area of the crank(it also will groove the main bearing surface of a soft crank).

Is your block already grooved in the main bearing web? I didn't know they came that way from the factory? It sure is a pain to do in a mill(much less lifting that block up into the mill).

Yes, I would evacuate the lifter galley with a dry sump fitting. You can go through the intake base with a fitting but I prfer drilling the back of the block behind the right side of the lifter bores, make a right angle bulkhead fitting to protrude through the back of the block and pick up the suction there. The right angle part of the fitting points down in the lifter galley to pick up the oil at the bottom of the lifter galley.

The crank should be stamped "Moldex" with a Mopar part number. Or at least that how ours was marked several years ago. Are you sure it is a 4340 Billet? It should have all surfaces fully machined, large holes drilled through the rod journals, cost is about $2300, most have GM crank flange, weighs about 48 lbs. Or could yours be a MP "race" crank, 1053 steel, forging, weighs about 52 lbs, cost less than $1000?

The reason I am asking about the crank is if it is a Moldex billet it will hold up under W7,8 or 9 heads. If it is a MP 1053"race" crank, it will not. The 1053 will hold up under stock or slightly modified W2s but not the other heads. Same with the rods, I don't know about Cunningham but you will need some serious race rods(recommend Carillo or Lentz) with W7,8 or 9 heads. Minimum 7/16" rod bolts, preferrably Carr($32 each). When you bolt on W7,8 or 9 heads you are gaining 125-200HP. It requires a whole different level of race component. Even the piston pins are different! Believe me, I've been there! Got plenty of cranks, rods and blocks to prove it.

[sanborn]

Another thought(from my son)! I said in an earlier post that we went to the aluminum blocks because of weight not because of reliability. That was true but we have one problem with aluminum blocks we didn't have with iron. After a hard night of racing where the car is really hooked when we check the Oberg, it has a fine dusting of aluminum. This really disturbed me to no end. Your Oberg is supposed to be clean after a hard night of racing. The fine dusting of aluminum is coming from the flexing of the block. It's strong but very light, only 95 lbs. including steel caps and bearings. I guess there is a preverted way of looking at this, the block gets lighter after each use! It doesn't happen with our 358" engine only the 408". I guess sooner or later the block will go POW!

The only comfort is it happens with GM and Blue Oval blocks too. Why didn't I take up fishing instead!

[RonsDirt]

No the Block is not chanlled, will have to do it ourself.
The Crank is from MP, it has the rod journal on 1 & 4 drilled out, the holes in the mains are tear drop shaped, knife edged and fully machined. Machine shop said it was hard when they drilled it to balance it. Will check for the moldex name when I get it back. It is NOT the 1053 as I used up 2 of them before switching to the billet.
How about lifter oiling, as I use T&D's which require oil from push rod? What I have been doing is drill hole thru to oil galley and tunnel up behind bushing to .030 hole in bushing that only opens when lifter goes up and on the way down. The rockers have held up fine with no signs off wear, so I guess they are getting enough oil, just a pain to do it that way. The sheet that came with the block said to drill a .060 hole to oil galley, but faild to say WHERE, and also where do I get a unbreakable .060 drill bit ???
After looking at the block it looks like I will need to mill the oil pressure hole down to the bottom to get enought sidewall to hold a 3/8 fitting, OK?
I am also thinking that I will run 2 Holly/Oberg (6" round style ) filters, one in each line, OK?
Just had a thought, any special balancing need to be done with the crank? I was told once, (By a suppose to know guy) that if I was going to run above 8000 to over balance by 1 1/2 percent, your thoughts about this. (My machine shop guy said not too).
Can I really expect 125-200 HP gain with W9s? That would put me over 800 if so. I was thinking I would only get 50-75 more with (357 C.I.D.)
Thanks,
Ron

[355 racer]

We had finished all our machine work on our R3 block several years ago. One thing we ran across was when the distributor was dropped in, there was not near enough clearence for the gear to engage the cam ( the dist.gear was jammed against the block ,sitting about 1/4" up in the air ). Naturally some dis-assembly was required. We also had a minor counterweight clearence problem involving #3 main. All items minor , but worth looking for. We have run our engine to 8800 RPM on occassion. The pistons will have to be replaced at the end of the year, the crank looks brand new.
Harry

[sanborn]

Ron, you probably got the good crank. A lot of people think they have a billet when in fact they have a 1053 crank. There is a definite difference!

Overbalancing- For a high RPM engine(8000+ consistently under full load, not spinning wheels) usually 1 to 1 1/2% is plenty. For under 8000 we usually balance straight up.

Drilling lifter bores- Why don't you cheat! Drill straight through the bore from the outside, to the inside of the lifter bore and into the oil galley. After you have drilled into the galley, come back and drill the outside hole and tap for a #6 set screw. Locktite it in and forget it.

3/8NPT fitting in back of block- Our block had enough meat to drill and tap. If in doubt use the oil filter boss, I just like to eliminate turns in the oiling system whenever possible.

Oberg oil filter- Consider putting the Oberg in the dry sump return line to the tank. That way any bad stuff is caught before it gets to the tank and sucked through your dry sump pump. One Oberg should be enough.

Horsepower- A good 358 with W7,8 or 9 heads should produce 700 to 750 HP (depending on how creative your dyno operator is with their "correction" factors). I was assuming your W2 headed engine was producing 550 to 575HP. There is really not a lot of difference in flow (fully CNC'd ) between the three. There is a major difference in weight, W7 about 38 lbs., W8 about 27 lbs., W9 about 20 lbs. The W9 ports start out larger which could be a problem for a small engine(358). They were really designed for a 410" sprint engine. I prefer the W8 head because it has a much thicker deck and doesn't warp as much. The W9 requires milling each time it is removed from the engine. But, that is why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream, to each his own!

Grooving the main bearing saddles- It is a pain. You can grind the grooves in (be very careful) or you can mill them if you have a right angle attachment for a Bridgeport. If you want to use a milling cutter, let me know. I will e-mail a photo of the one I made.

[RonsDirt]

355 Racer:
Thanks for the tip on the Dist, Knew about Counterweight problem as it was in R1 block. Kind of stupid of Mopar to not cut that down futher, also leaving those square edge cuts is asking for a stress crack. I use a hand grinder and radis all that stuff in all the cuts they made.

Sanborn:
OH no good, tried that all ready. With a 1/8 hole drilled through and the hole lined up to oil on base of cam, lossed 10 lbs. of oil presure. Took valve cover off and squirted oil 30 feet out side the car. Used 1/8 as that was only size I felt I could drill all the way with out breaking it. My current way cost NO presure loss and lighty dribbles oil on ground with cover off. I tried spray bars first that MR. RAY BARTON sold me for $650.00 (Special covers) after first race pulled rocker arms for look see, oil in rockers was burnt and smelled like @#%@#$. The only good thing about that was he took them back, may be allright for a drag car but not what we do. Will get with you when I'm ready to update heads, I like little motors as they are easy to drive, but I also like to win. Dennis Wells chassis dyno says I'm making 585 H.P. before I ported heads and changed to staged headers and dry sump. Who knows??

Speaking of R.B. am I the only one that had a bad experence with him, (The valve covers was not the only screw up).

Later,
Ron

[sanborn]

Ron, Maybe I don't understand about the lifter oiling, or maybe my early "R" block is different from yours (It's possible, my block is almost like an "X" block with 48 degree lifter bores). You must oil the rockers through the lifters, pushrods, etc. We use spring oilers(with valve cover oilers) but that is only to keep the springs cool. Oilers make a world of difference in valve spring life. But then again we use Jesel rockers and your T&D have spring oiling provisions.

I thought you had to use "stock" W2 heads. They flow about 260 CFM (with 3 angle valve work). If yours are full ported, the flow could be as high as 310 CFM. The W7,8,9 heads flows 355 CNC ported out of the box. And with some additional work go to about 362. Some of the really big WOO sprint car stuff probably goes to 380-390. I have always used the "rule of thumb" of 2.0-2.1HP per CFM of head flow for a really serious oval track engine. That's where I was coming from with the HP difference for head change.

I am going to go back and look again at my "R" block about the lifter oiling.

Don't want to start a war with this comment but a lot of drag racers don't understand what we put engines through on an oval track(especially a dirt track). What a lot of drag racers get by with wouldn't last through our first "Hot Lap" session. But I'm sure some of the stuff we do wouldn't work for drag racing either.

[355 racer]

Our rules call for W-2 heads, we used the W-2 race head, I believe the CFM rate is 300+ right out of box. Rules do not allow porting.
I have been to Ray's shop on several occassions, ( bought an oil cooler last year ). It is strictly Mopar engines all the way. When I was building the R3, he had several Craftsman truck engines available as used, complete , carb to pan, about $12k ea. I passed, as I like to get involved and see the buildup from the start. I know Jeff Strunk uses a Mopar in one of his modified cars, and that Ray built the engine. Jeff was track champion in the past.
Harry

[sanborn]

Ron, came across something last night of interest to you. Mopar has a Sprint Car Engine Build-Up Manual, PN# P5007520. It says the price is $25.00 (ugh)! Has some pretty good info in it. Written primarily for Sprint and Late Model engines. Lots of pictures(all taken in Stanton's shop). Chapter 2 (oiling) has photos and description of lifter bore prep of an R3 block. What they basically recommend is to put the block in a Bridgeport type vertical mill, Plunge down with a extra long 1/8" end mill(just barely clearing the edge of the lifter bore to connect the oil gallery with the lifter bore. They also say a drilling fixture can be made to do the same thing manually (makes sense).

Thought you might be interested. Most of the info in the manual I agree with, some I don't. But they make different flavors of ice cream too!.

[RonsDirt]

Thanks for the info on the manual, thought I had everthing from Mopar but missed that one. Last years 358 build up Manual (P5007373) shows a picture of the lifter galley and there is a hole drilled in the lifter bosses, BUT not a word in the book about how or where. This years Manual (P5007450) is still on backorder, Mopar Tech says that they wanted to include NASCAR Late Model Info is why it is so late.

[Jesse Lackman]

Sandborn, will the Honda rod journals break at under 7000 rpm?

[sanborn]

Jesse, the problem isn't with the size of the Honda rod journal, the problem is with the material of the crank, how much journal overlap the crankshaft has and the type of track raced on.

For example, the Nascar guys used Honda rod journals extensively(especially on qualifying engines) and they produce 750HP and turn 9000RPM. Many of the qualifying cranks had 2.250" main journals as well. But, they also used the very best cranks you could buy(generally Bryant or Winberg ultralight). But they race on very smooth surfaces(pavement). So the crank isn't subjected to shock loads that are typically seen on rough dirt tracks.

Another example, you could probably get by with a Honda journal on a drag strip. They put a shock load on it at launch but that's all. It would probably live very well at six launches per night. And they don't have the problem of load/unload/load/unload, etc.

Hope I answered your question.

[Jesse Lackman]

Sandborn, could you e-mail me? I'll tell you some of what I'm thinking of doing.

rvsrchjl@westriv.com