I can't find the timing mark??

[Supercharged]

I have a 70 dart with a 340 that is freshly rebuilt, and I have been trying to time it, and I cannot find the mark. I have it marked with white and have also gone as far advanced, and as far retarded as I can go, and still no mark. I do have the Vaccuum advance unhooked while doing this, and I have the timing light on #1 cylinder.

I even tried taking out the spark plug in the #1 cyl. and checking to make sure the Harmonic Balancer is right and it shows zero atdc!

I have the car running pretty decent, but also have a ping which I cannot get rid of!

Specs:
340 .030
284/484 mopar cam
10:1 silvolite pistons
X heads with full polish and porting 2.02/1.60 valves
Balanced
Stock intake port matched
650 dp holley carb with 1 inch adapter plate
msd 6al ignition
electronic distributor with new cap and rotor

Any advice would be appreciated.

Mike

[1972roadrunner]

is there any play in the dist? (can you turn the rotor while it's still in the engine?) i'm not sure if that would have anything to do with it, but its sumthin to check...

also, do you have the right harmonic balancer?....how many marks are there on it? my brothers 440 has 4 marks, one every 1/4 turn... my 340 only has one though, i haven't had that problem before...

good luck!

[pishta]

try the #2 spark plug wire to time it. Sure as shit itll be visible if you have the wrong timing cover on. If not try #8, you are just moving the mark 90 degrees by doing this. You can also turn the motor by hand and check for spark if you have points, I dont know about electronic.

[coolcarz]

Try different timing light ,it may be defective, try different color timing light,some easier to see. you can adj. timing by valve ping during acceleration just as good as timing light. running 10:1 compression hope your running higher octane fuel then regular gas station fuel :/ if so your ping will live forever

coolcarz

[dave571]

If you use an advance timing light(one with a degree wheel built on) you may be able to find the mark easier.

A customer who came to me last week had the same problem. He could not find the mark with his home light. I used my advance light and found that he had 28 degrees base timing.

You will be able to move the rotor a bit, in fact, worry if it won't move at all. That means the advance weights are seized and you need a distributor.

[Tarrbabe]

Pishta, I always thought that would work but never tried it. Cool! I wasn't sure if the two covers were a true 90 degrees apart.

[Supercharged]

Thanx for the replies all.

I run 92-93 octane so I believe I'm in the right area. I have a brand new distributor as well.

Have to try the timing light on #2 or #8 and see if that remedies my no timing mark, if not I'll try an adjustable timing light.

Mike

[coolcarz]

running a 650 dp with that manifold, that is a lot of fuel . try running 5 to 7 gal of racing fuel or av gas(plane fuel) even good oct booster to full tank of premium, bet that ping goes away. 92 93 octine by todays standards still not enough to stop pinging. just my 2 cents good luck! bro ( just incase you have not tried it)

coolcarz

[gearripper]

i just had that same problem with my 440 big block it drove me crazy,it turns out to be the wires on the magnetic pick up were reversed and it threw my timing of by about 40 degress.iwas running a holly inhilator ing. take a look at that it may help. gearripper

[5th_Ave_Sleeper]

I would not recomend running av-gas in a car. It has waaaaay to much lead in it. Its called 100LL (Low Lead) but really it has way more lead in it than you want!
Its ok for every once and a while, but not constantly
5th

[Supercharged]

GearRipper thanx for the idea, but unfortunately I'm not running a magnetic pick-up.

CoolCarz I put in 92 octane with a full bottle of octane boost and still seems to ping.

I am also getting another problem. While cruising I have great power, and acceleration but as soon as I maintain a steady driving speed like 3000 rpm the car starts to hesitate. I'm trying to think of what it can be but no ideas. I have good vaccuum also. Jetting is 67/76?

Please anymore help or suggestions would be great!

Mike

[mr.b]

i once had a spun balancer and it showed 70 degrees btdc before it would even start. replaced it and every thing was fine.

[coolcarz]

some brands of octane booster are not that great , try 5 gal of trick racing fuel or different type octane booster to tank of fuel , or timing may be little to advanced, hesitation or misses at 3000? carb adjustment air/fuel mix possibley?

coolcarz

[5th_Ave_Sleeper]

Mr.b has a vert good point, That happens more often than you would think
5th

[70Ted]

why is lead a problem?

[coolcarz]

I always thought lead was a good thing, av-fuel as i know it is getting away from the lead too, but cars with minimum smog stuff and no converters should be fine burning leaded fuel, valves and such would say lead is yummy. at least 60's and 70's muscle cars should have no problem,unless valves and stuff were changed to burn unleaded, even then whats wrong with lead? except the enviroment.

coolcarz

[72Challenger]

Too much lead can foul plugs really fast. And while I'm no-tree hugging freak, it is highly poisonous as well, the environment is a pretty good reason.

[coolcarz]

the only access i ever had to av gas was the type mentioned 100LL stuff ,I only used it weekends to street race<--(not good) otherwise other additives worked fine. racing fuel was a bit more expensive at that time, I've seen a couple different things used as octane boosters, and a few of them I thought ,hummmmmm thats scary.

coolcarz

[5th_Ave_Sleeper]

I know we have kinda gotten off the subject of timing mark searching, but here is a solution to the avgas thing:Toluene
R+M/2.........114
Cost...........$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.2 Octane
20%...........96.4 Octane
30%...........98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.

Formula #2 - Xylene
R+M/2.........117
Cost...........$2.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.5 Octane
20%...........97.0 Octane
30%...........99.5 Octane
Notes: Similar to Toluene. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Usually mixed with Toluene and advertised as *race formula*.

Formula #3 - Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE)
R+M/2.........118
Cost...........$3.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.6 Octane
20%...........97.2 Octane
30%...........99.8 Octane
Notes: Oxygenate. Very common in octane booster products. Has lower BTU content than toluene or xylene, but oxygenate effect makes the gasoline burn better and produce more energy.

Formula #4 - Methanol or Ethanol
R+M/2.........101
Cost...........$0.60 - $1.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.3 Octane (Methanol)
10%...........94.7 Octane (Ethanol)
20%...........Not Recommended
Notes: Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combine with water.

Formula #5 - Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol
R+M/2.........101
Cost...........$0.60-$1.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.5 Octane
20%...........Not Recommended
30%...........Not Recommended
Notes: Similar to Methanol/Ethanol. Isopropyl Alcohol is simply rubbing alcohol.

Sample Mixture
To make your own octane booster, it is easiest to make up a large batch, and then bottle it up in "dosage-size" uses.
Below is the basic formula of one of the popular octane booster products. To make eight 16 ounce bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):
o 100 oz of toluene for octane boost
o 25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
o 3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent)
This product is advertised as "octane booster with cleaning agent *and* lubricating agent!". Diesel fuel or kerosene can be substituted for mineral spirits and light turbine oil can be substituted for transmission fluid. Color can be added with petroleum dyes.

[Devilbrad]

Interesting info 5th!!! OK, my experience with your problem Super.........Brand new 383 I would set base timing by turning ignition on with balancer at 5 degrees BTDC, then turn distributor by hand with a spark plug in number 1 wire and watch for spark (it had Mopar Electronic ignition). I would get spark no problem. But it wouldnt start or run!!!! After a frustrating amount of time (I wont even say!!!!!!!!!) I just said "screw it" and cranked the distributor until the thing would start. Then I would keep turning until it ran good and accelerated. My timing was at 38 degrees at idle!!!!!!!!! I thought the balancer was bad so checked it with a TDC tool. It was dead nuts on. To make a long story short.........the cam timing was off!!!! By turning the distributor so far advance, the ignition timing and valve timing were "synchronized" so that it would run, but the pistons were still coming up the cylinder walls. Hence lack of effective compression at time of ignition and poor power. What a difference it made getting the cam timing right!!!! LOL, especially after I realized a week later that I should readjust the valves with the cam in the right position!!! (I was using the harmonic balancer to adjust them prior to fire up!) It popped and backfired and ran like crap while going through a ton of fuel the first week I drove it, but now its much happier!!

Brad

[Tarrbabe]

nice idea. where do you get it?

[Tarrbabe]

where can you get the chemicals?

[5th_Ave_Sleeper]

I have gotten xylene from the local Shewin williams paint store. Most of the chems are used in thinning/reducing acrylic and or enamel type indusrial paints. We go through a lot of tolulene at work. we get it at the paint store. We even buy methanol by the 5gal pail. we use it as a windshield de-icer on our jets!
Look in the phone book under Chemical supplies as well
5th

[gthomas]

I had the same problem and finally went to the speed shop and got one of the stick on timing tapes and it showed me exactly where I was at. Be sure to clean the balancer extremely well or it won't last long.

[cudacarl]

I had a similar problem with my '73 340 cuda. When i bought the car i didn't realize that it had a steel crank intrnally balanced engine. The timing mark on the older 340's is on the passenger side. Back then the water pump outlet was on the drivers side. When we rebuilt the engine we figured it out. Internally balanced the mark is on the passenger side and externally balanced is on the drivers side. The water pump was actually hiding the mark because it was on the passenger side covering the mark. I think you said you did this but remove the plug on the drivers side closest to the front of the car (#1) and turn the engine till the piston is all the way up and see where the mark is. In my case i bought a '73 340 timing case cover and bought timing tape. There was a 90 degree mark on the tape which is where i put it on the TDC mark of the damper so that the tdc mark would be 90 degrees over on the drivers side. Later on i found also that the damper had spun about 20 degrees off so i replaced it. The dampers for externally balanced and internally balanced cranks are not interchangeable. Unless the engine vibrates vary bad you have the right one you just need to find out at true tdc what side of the engine it is on.

[Supercharged]

Hi all, well I have tried some of the advice given here and this is what I came up with.

I put the timing light on #2 cylinder, and ran the car no vaccuum advance and at idle, and the mark showed up on the Passenger side. If you look at the motor head on and think of a clock it shows at around 10 o'clock.

Now I changed the timing light to #1 cyl. and looked for the mark on the pass. side but it was not there. I looked on the drivers side and it wasn't there either.

My question now is, How do I fix this ass backwards problem. I appreciate all the advice and replies thanx alot.

Mike

[cudacarl]

Wow that is a strange one. Try and answer these questions it will help everyone try and figure this out
1. Do you know if your crank is steel or cast? (you can tell by the amount of space there is on cone in back of the damper. Small space (1 inch or so) is steel (internally balanced). Much larger is cast.
2. What side of the engine does the timing case cover show the marks?
3. With #1 Plug out and the piston all the way up (TDC) where is the Mark. Is it on the passenger or drivers side and what clock location. (is it anywhere near the tdc on the cover)?
4. Verify the mark you are looking at is the TDC mark. This mark goes all the way across the damper. There is another mark which goes about half way accross and it is the 90 degree mark that i used to put the tape on.
5. Can you get another damper that you know is good to compare where the marks are this way you will know if it has spun and is off the mark?
6. Look at the distributer to make sure the vacuum advance is working correctly. Maybe stuck for some reason at full advance. When you start the car the mark will move off where you can't see it even though you have it disconnected. It will also make your engine sputter until the mechanical weights kick in at higher rpm (had that problem also years ago). Can you try another distributer with it disconnected? -good luck

[cudacarl]

I'm sure you know this so don't shoot but i have to ask anyway. you do know that the #1 is drivers side closest to the front and #2 is passenger side closest to the front.

[Supercharged]

Hey CudaCarl, thanx for all your advice. I put #1 atdc on the compression stroke and the damper was dead on 0. Then I checked the distributor and took the cap off too make sure it was pointing at #1, and found that it was a little ways off. Turns out the timing was so far adavanced that we couldn't find the mark, and everytime I retarded it it wanted to stall. This time we just kept retareding it and boom the mark showed up. So I put the idle up to 1000 and went for a drive. Now it has only a tiny ping because now I'm running about 13 degrees of initial timing advanced, and the hesitation is almost gone, I imagine a little more driving and carb tuning will get rid of that.

I do have a steel crank. I appreciate all the responses and ideas you all gave me, I am just surprised it ran so nice at idle, and like a pile of junk while driving with so much advance, I always thought it would just stall, and not run at all. Thanx again

Mike

[cudacarl]

Good Deal glad i could help. It's nice when things are simple, i always assume the worst. You might still want to use timing tape. It will show you 60 degrees of timing instead of the 10 or 15 on the case. When your advance kicks in the mark will dissappear. This will help you find out what your total advanced timing is. You will need it if you plan to change springs in the distributer to get rid of the pinging. Just make sure your damper is clean when you put it on. I've always had a problem with the tape coming off over time and it sucks because it ends up costing you $8 to replace it every time you want to time your car. What i did 2 years ago was to paint the damper, put the tape on then i used clear packing tape (the real sticky stuff) and wraped it once around the damper then trimmed the excess off the edge. It's held up for 2 years and is real nice to have especially when trying to dial in a new motor. - good luck