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  #1  
Old 06-17-2002, 02:07 PM
SubLime440 SubLime440 is offline
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Default Car Continues to Shoot Flames?

Hey guys, I've been working on this problem for a while...I'm hoping someone can point me in a new direction... Car is 72 Cuda... Mild 440 w/.509 cam...850 Double Pumper and MSD 6AL, MSD Timing Retard switch... MSD Billet Distributor and MSD Blaster Coil... Timing is at 38 degrees total... I also put in a Phelonic Carb Spacer to isolate carb from heat....

Here's the deal... Upon Startup or attempting to Start Car... about every 10th time the car will Start the carb on fire... I Put fire out it will start usually the next time without a problem (Except is seems flooded)...Once car is running, it run's great... I've check the timing a hundred times.. replaced the distributor with the Billet one... Replaced the carb with a brand new one that I had and it still does it... What gives... I put the MSD Advance/Retard switch in for a test to back the timing down upon starting, the car is better but it will still do it once in a while... I've never seen anything like this... It's just fuel and air and spark... I am still leaning towards timing issues??? The car actually doesn't back fire... It almost starts and then the carb starts on fire... This DOES NOT HAPPEN ALL of the time... the majority of the time it fires right up???? Any ideas???? Vapor Lock???
Help.... My car looks like the 'Night of Fire and Thunder' every time I got to the strip...
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  #2  
Old 06-17-2002, 02:45 PM
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1972roadrunner 1972roadrunner is offline
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only thing i can think of is valve timing....unless you have the wrong cover and you timing is way off... just a thought.... wish i could help more...

good luck
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  #3  
Old 06-17-2002, 07:05 PM
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Did you happen to ground something to the carb studs? How about a sticky valve?
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  #4  
Old 06-17-2002, 07:13 PM
SubLime440 SubLime440 is offline
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Nothing grounded to the carb studs... Sticky valve... That would make sense... Somehow the intake valve is letting the flame propogate upwards through the intake....Why would a valve stick? Gummed up guide?
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  #5  
Old 06-17-2002, 07:54 PM
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Not sure. Maybe a rough valve guide or a weak spring? How new is the valvetrain, specifically the springs? Have you inspected/watched the rockers operate with the valve covers off?
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  #6  
Old 06-17-2002, 07:58 PM
SubLime440 SubLime440 is offline
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Springs are a few years old, but it is the stock valvetrain and a Mopar .509 cam... Not too hard on the springs... I haven't freshened anything up as I have a new motor to put in anyways... then rebuild this one as a spare... I just have not had time to work on the car much...
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  #7  
Old 06-17-2002, 09:07 PM
6Cuda6 6Cuda6 is offline
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I'll guess and say your initial timing is around 16 degrees, try increasing it to about 21 or use a vacumm gauge and set it for the highest reading at idle.... i know this sounds odd but we had the exact same problem with a new motor that we did at the shop...torched the hood before we got it sorted out....may not be the only problem but check it out.....
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  #8  
Old 06-18-2002, 11:45 AM
Dart Dart is offline
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Hey sublime...did you attend the Mopar at Thuder Mountain deal?
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  #9  
Old 06-18-2002, 12:12 PM
SubLime440 SubLime440 is offline
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No Mopar at the Mountain for me... I was torn but went down to Pueblo to race in the ET Points series down there instead... I heard there were hundreds of Mopars there... and I'm sorry to have missed that....
How do you like this I went to Pueblo with my 70 Challenger Sublime Green 440 6pack 4speed clone... and destroyed another 8 3/4 rear end... This time the Gears came right through the pumpkin.... Those clutch dumps are murder at 5000 RPM's...Last year my axle broke.. Now I have Moser 35 splines and this happens... Then as I put the thing on the trailer... a guy in a Toyota twin turbo Supra comes by and would like to buy the car from me... (He loves Mopars too!)... I didn't get into prices but he said he would make a good offer... I just can't sell that car ever... It's way too much fun!!!!
Every time I drive the thing, somebody want's to buy it... Don't you just love those old Mopars!
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  #10  
Old 06-18-2002, 02:24 PM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Hi
Do you use hydralic or solid lifters?
Mine did the same,,on and of ,,those new moparperformance lifters are not worth the name!!
Best regards Olle B
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  #11  
Old 06-18-2002, 02:28 PM
SubLime440 SubLime440 is offline
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It' the Hydraulic Cam and Lifters from MOPAR...
(.509 lift purple cam)....

Is there a problem with Mopar Lifters?
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  #12  
Old 06-18-2002, 02:45 PM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Hi
Watch my little story on 3 pages
"Noisy valvetappets on rebuild engine"
I cant tell you if thats your problem,but mine is a mess since adding this new cam and lifter.
On and off it backfires,valves are not opening correctly and most of the time I got a heavy tapping noise.All in the system is new and the lifters are not sticking in the body, they feel hard as rock but collaps on and off,,,,,,,,thats why I have my noise.
Im not telling you thats your problem,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It just looks simular to mine at some spots.
Ive heard from a well updated Swedeguy that this discussion have been ventilated on both this forum and in some moparmagazin.

Best regards Olle B
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  #13  
Old 06-18-2002, 08:44 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Timing chain??
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  #14  
Old 06-18-2002, 08:52 PM
SubLime440 SubLime440 is offline
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Could be.... Timing doesn't jump around but if it's really sloppy... I bet it would do it...
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  #15  
Old 06-19-2002, 08:17 AM
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cuda66273 cuda66273 is offline
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Mopar cams and lifters....what is this fixation with this Ma Mopar stuff???

STOP using this stuff it just flat doesn't work.

OK, lets check a few things...are they bronze guides in the heads? if they are you need huge clearances like .0023-25. For Mopar big valves iron guides seem to work best, a hanging valve could cause this but I have my doubts, you'd have more problems if this was the case....bent push rods etc.

In order for it to pop through the carb and start a forest fire two things could be happening:

1. Open Valve
2. Lean condition

1. Open valve could be a valve out of adjustment not letting it fully close in time or cross firing in the cap or through the wire set allowing spark to prematurely ignite the fuel charge with the valve still slightly open.

2. Lean condition, seems you have plenty of carb and I'm sure you've done a plug check so we'll assume that part of the equation is correct, so that leaves a vacuum leak possibility, has this been checked? Just use water in a spray bottle we want you around to reply to this post

My guess is a bad plug wire or cap, that MSD fires 5 times to each hole under 3000 RPM, if there's a weak wire or cap it'll find it, and yes this can be an intermittant problem.

Can you look into the manifold with a mirror and locate which cylinder is the culpert? The offender will show black soot in the runner to the cylinder......

One more thought, if the carb is leaking down and dumping all the fuel out of the bowl this will give you a lean start condition, after it sits for awhile pull the bowl plugs and shake the car and see if you still have gas in the bowls.

Lemme know
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  #16  
Old 06-19-2002, 10:31 AM
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dirty dan dirty dan is offline
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Post Carb fire

I agree with the last part of the last post,the most. although the rest of the replies are also a possiblity I would lean toward the carb drainnig in to the manifold after shut down. If it were an ignition problem and or timeing, you would sertenly get a pop through the carb . But thats all. That is unless you were pumping the gas pedal a bunch before hand. If it is burning the way I think it is it would need exta fuel to make it burn beond the pop.
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  #17  
Old 06-21-2002, 05:28 PM
mtrv8n mtrv8n is offline
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I was having problems like that with a 650 holley, dp, and when I switched to an edelbrock, VOILA!
You've got a carb leak, or poorly aligned gasket in the carb. When you fire it up, if the gas has pooled by a cylinder last in line, it'll set it off. I went through a bunch of air filters before I fixed this.

BTW, advancing the ignition reduces the problem, but it's the carb...and since it's been burned, you'll want to replace it anyway..all it's gaskets must be toast by now.
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  #18  
Old 06-22-2002, 12:50 PM
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cuda66273 cuda66273 is offline
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Default SubLime440

Well......did you fix it?????????????
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  #19  
Old 06-22-2002, 11:24 PM
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Did ya? Inquirring minds want to know.
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  #20  
Old 06-23-2002, 01:03 AM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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Hope you don't mind, but have you checked TDC? Find out if your timing mark is in the right place and work from there. You can only eliminate one thing at a time.
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  #21  
Old 06-23-2002, 10:29 AM
mtrv8n mtrv8n is offline
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Did that fix it? yes, it sure did!

Now, how can I get rid of a smelly exhaust at idle??
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  #22  
Old 06-23-2002, 10:36 AM
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cuda66273 cuda66273 is offline
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So what fixed it????

Floats, timing ???????

Smelly idle is too rich at idle, lean down the idle jets...or get the mice out of the muffler....
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  #23  
Old 06-23-2002, 10:20 PM
mtrv8n mtrv8n is offline
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oK oK, what fixed it was throwing out the holley. I got tired of replacing all those gaskets, specially after a cold winter. Line it up wrong, or if a power valve gasket goes on wrong, poof, black smoke out the back. Always a raw gas smell after 4-5 months, telling me SOMETHING was leakin. And, was getting the flaming backfire..

Went to the Edelbrock, never had a problem. The smelly idle, though..I just fixed. Yes, a rich idle, but from tuning. I had replaced the step up springs for more response off idle, but wasn't drawing enough vacuum at idle to prevent the spring from raising the main jet. Went back to the orange springs, and it's much better now.

I also have noticed other 'Cuda owners complaining of exhaust fume odor, and I think I may have found a way to "plug" that one up.
The hood has a tubular shaped runners just outboard of the cowl seal, which allows air to flow out from the hood. I have a flex fan, which always pushes tons of air, and it must be pushing motor smell right out next to the windows. If I were using the hyd fan clutch, this would not happen unless the engine was hot enough to set it off.
So, I plugged the vents with a/c foam, and we'll see what happens next.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2002, 03:59 PM
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AAR4fun AAR4fun is offline
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way to go...
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