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  #1  
Old 07-09-2002, 02:52 AM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Default Still noise from valvesystem,,I need an expert in 383 oilingsystem!!

Hi
the story of my tapping noise continues!
On and off both when warm and cold the engine make a tapping noise.
It is specially from specific rockers.
I have hydralic lifters.
I have found out that the problem is caused by to much freeplay between pushrods and rockerarm.
NO I HAVE NOT ADJUSTABLE ROCKERS!

When I installed the new MP RR cam I did a lot of measurments on it and one thing I remember was its smallest circle - 90 degree across the top of the lobe was 0.02 smaller than my original camshaft.
The lobe was correct if you measure the lift from center of the shaft.
I didnt make any more notice of it,,,,by that time!!

Now when I have had problems for 2 months Im seaking of every little reason to solve the problem.
This smaller diam means that I got more freeplay and maybe loses the oilfilm around the pushrods ball!?
I could easely rotate the shaft between thumb and pointfinger,but theres no vertical play as I feel at least not when cold!
So the main Q is,,,,,,,is it the play that causes the noise? It is quiet as soon as I place a drip of oil in that point,and stays that way for hours!,,Then suddenly tick,tack and we are back in troubble!! SHIT, SHIT, SHIT !!
OR
Could it be to little oil running up to the shafts?
The shafts are mounted correctly with the small holes down and out but I cant tell you its flowing a lot,,absolutely not.
I have no idea of how much oil will flow,and to be true,,how the hech is oil going to flow up to those little holes in top of the rocker that will deliver it to the pushrod,,Im amazed that not all of my rods are tapping,,thers is definitly no overflow eighter at valveside or pushside,,is that the main problem pehaps?
And if so is,,what to do?
Please some GOOD TIP,,,I really need them now,,Ive been followed by this problems so long that I cant even sleep anylonger!!

Best regards Olle B
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2002, 04:37 AM
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1972roadrunner 1972roadrunner is offline
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i would imagin the noise is coming from the play. do you know what the pressure of your oil is? (for example 80psi)

an aftermarket oil psi guage will help a lot if you don't have one. i would personally go with mechanical because you don't have to worry about false readings from bad electrical systems like mine . with the mechanical, if the guage isn't reading anything, usually its very true, wether its a crack in the line (there is a small tube oil actually flows through going to the guage, i like copper better than the nylon, it doesn't get brittle when hot) or sumthin else wrong...

when running the motor with the valve covers off, does oil splash all over? does it flow over the edge of the head and onto everything? i would think that it should...mine does, and so does my brothers 440... if not, it may be different head designs...i'm not too sure.

also, you said the noise stops when you put oil in that point? what point? could you clarify a little?

i'm sorry i can't really help much, but i would definently go for adjustable rocker arms. as i said in the other thread, i'll look in my books for some cheaper aluminum rockers for you...i may even find some roller rockers
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Old 07-09-2002, 04:51 AM
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1972roadrunner 1972roadrunner is offline
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sorry Olle, i can't find anything cheaper than the deal you have now...i would go for it. the only adjustable rockers in my P.A.W book are either 1.5, or 1.6 adjustable aluminum roller rocker arms for over $500....NOT including the pushrods...

i would go for the kit from summit...at least you'll have sumthin adjustable.

BTW: are you using anti-pump hyd. lifters? what kind of lifters are you using? i can't remember...
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Old 07-09-2002, 06:50 AM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Well
My oilpressure is raising like a rocket after start!
I checked it with an mechanical gauge and its more than 60,
At idle its more than 40 maybe 50!
The point where I put oil is the point where the pushrod hit the rocker!

That point is far from levelline!
If the oilsystem should overfill and reach that point!! Man,,,it really haves to flow!I guess it works on the steam and minor oilfog thats appears inside the valvecover,,,maybe Im wrong!?

Anyhow,,I guess my freeplay at the pushrod is not so good?

I use original moparperformance lifters but with this new set the tapping continues and as mention goes off after oiling,,,

So the main Q is,,,,,
Is it the play or is it loss of oil?
Everything in oilsystem looks like working fine but the amount of oil to the head via oilchannel and cambearing nr 4 is difficult to calculate.
I think I could set the cam in that angle where the channel thru and up to the rockershaft SHOULD be open and then run the oilpump by a drill to see if it flows then!
The only hard point in that experiment is to find the point where the channel is open!!
Any idea?

Best regards Olle B
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  #5  
Old 07-09-2002, 12:17 PM
dynorad dynorad is offline
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Do you have hydraulic or solid lifters?
Are you saying the cam lobe is smaller or the base circle of the cam is smaller?

Lets assume for a moment that you have hydraulic lifters and the base circle of the cam is small enough that the lifters are fully extended before they take up all the valvetrain clearance. That might cause your problem. I think the cheapest solution to this scenario would be custom (longer) pushrods.

If the lobe is smaller it would just cause the valve to open less.
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  #6  
Old 07-09-2002, 02:58 PM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Dynorod,,,
You are close to the problem!!Its true ,,I dont make a joke,,the new Moparperformance camshaft was 0.02 smaller on what you call the basecircle!Compared to my old (original?) .
Yes I do use hydralic lifters.
I studied it hard today!
As I told you it only make noise on and off!
The vertical free play is close to feelable.Ive heard that the lifters should be prepressed by around 0.02!
The gap caused by the camshaft!!
The lifters down in the bottom of the hole is rotating as H...
Some of the rods are only rotating slowly,slowly,,as if the lifter didnt make any catch/grip at the pushrod becourse they are not prepressed!!
I hope thats the problem!!
My Q is if the oilflow could be to less to the heads?
If I put a drop of oil in top of the rod it becomes silence,,but it still not rotate as fast as the lifter!
I hope my only problem is the lack of prepressure and the oiling system work OK,,,I cant remember how big the channels are but it seems like a low percent risk that the channel to the top is partly blocked or!!
I guess all is ok with the oil and the solution is eighter adj rockers or lets say 0.1 longer rods!!
Thanks Olle B
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  #7  
Old 07-09-2002, 06:16 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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.020" on the base circle shouldn't make that much difference, the lifter should ba able to compensate.
If a pushrod spins freely when the lifter is on the heel of the cam lobe with the engine shut off, can you see the gap between the disc in the lifter and its wire retainer or snap ring? If there is a gap between the disc and the retainer, the lifter has sufficient preload and shouldn't allow any clearance that would cause noise.
If, on the other hand, there is no clearance at all between the disc and the retainer, there is no preload and there will be noise because the disc can't rise up to close up the clearance. The lifter is topped out as dynorad said.
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Old 07-09-2002, 07:17 PM
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road chicken road chicken is offline
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Typical preload on a BB hydro cam is .060" ( 1.5MM) so there should be no free play in the pushrod at all. What weight oil are you running? 10-30 is the recommended. I get the same thing every once in a while. All the time when I went to 5-30. I have opened up the block and pick up to the 1/2 " hemi size with a HV pump, so this might not be out of the ordinary- just slightly annoying- with no mechanical detrimental effects
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Old 07-09-2002, 09:13 PM
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1972roadrunner 1972roadrunner is offline
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Olle: 50psi at an idle is VERY good, i doubt its your oiling system. sounds to me the problem is the loose pushrods. if you can turn them, especially with hyd. lifters, thats bad... keep the revs down till you get the adjustable rockers, i'm sure you don't wanna buy another cam...
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Old 07-09-2002, 11:16 PM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Thanks all!
Im using Pennzoil 20-50 .
For my oiling system,,Yes I have good preassure but that will be the good also if the channel thrue the 906 head is blocked,,but I guess thats only nervous feelings and I really hope the one and only reason is the clearance in my valvesystem.
RR No I dont think I ruin the cam,,the lifters are covered with lots of oil and they spin like h....
The reason for the gap is at first the smaller basecircle of the new cam compared to my old!(maybe a trick from manufactor to cause this problem and then be able to sell adjustable rockers for a fortune!!??)
Add I run with my original steelrockers and They are old!Maybe they "lift" caused by worn bearingsurface,,,,(looks fine) and then adding the clearance by that.
Any comments to my oil?
Im a by this moment poor man,,so I guess I have to deal with it until winter.
I also loose a lot of power,,
IF THE LIFTER SHOULD HAVE 1,5 mm ( 0.06) PRELOAD
and mine are about 0.005 I will lose a lot of lift from the camlobe!!
WOW the day I can afford 1,6 adj rockers it will give me a completely new world of performance.
Thanks and best regards Olle B
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  #11  
Old 07-10-2002, 12:13 AM
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1972roadrunner 1972roadrunner is offline
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Quote:
RR No I dont think I ruin the cam,,the lifters are covered with lots of oil and they spin like h....
even so, the lifter itself could be bouncing off the cam lobe, causing the "tick" noise....i'm not sure if thats what is happening, but thats what happened with my hyd. lifters that crapped out.

as for the oil, i think its fine, but i wouldn't use penzoil....just my personal preference... 20W-50 is also a very good weight to use in a motor...my dad put it in my moms 4.0L V-6 phurd....

i am also a poor man, wish i had a job...

one thing you could do, is get adjustable pushrods... they are expensive, but could solve your problem...the price of these pushrods will be around $223.20 plus shipping and handling...

course, adjustable rocker arms (1.5 i think, and not aluminum) are 158.95 for a set of 16, plus shipping and handling... that would probably be a much cheaper solution...

if you wanna order these from P.A.W, email me at tmezzenger@hotmail.com and i'll give you all the info you need.

good luck!
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