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  #1  
Old 07-14-2002, 09:56 PM
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Cool Thermostat Theory

OK...

I have read or have been told the in's and outs of thermostats but never have had the theory fully explained... I understand this may be elementary (must have missed this day). So the specific question is what's the theory of thermostats (beyond letting your engine warm up). What I am looking for someone to fully explain is how you match the correct temp thermo to the correct engine and what does increasing or decreasing the opening temp accomplish (again in theory). Please include all the technicle stuff as I understand the practical - looking for the science - I guess.

Thanks.
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Old 07-15-2002, 09:47 PM
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I'd like to hear taht to.
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Old 07-15-2002, 11:58 PM
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Default Thermo Stat

Ok Have you ever checked a thermo stat before? I have just get a old pan on the oven fill with water drop your stat in what happens? Probably nothin if you dont turn the stove on After turning on the stove and things are begining to heat up to the specified temp range of your stat, (which should be marked somewere on it) it will slowly open! Take it out with a pair somthing other than your fingers, and run cold water on it! Should close a little faster in which it opened! If so this should be a good stat! Most oviously if open under normal temp this would be stuck stat (bad stat)! Ok here is the deal! In the winter time you want the heater to work asap! So you wont freeze your other parts off. The heat which is gained buy the hot water from your engine flowing through a heat exchanger (heater core) with a fan blowing it in your face and on your feet! Ok, now were cookin, when you first start your engine when cold the stat is closed, and the water is not circulating from or too you engine. In other words it will heat up alot faster, with the same water in your block. Than if its all just continuasly flowing like not have a stat at all or one is stuck open! If you dont belive me take itout this winter and let it idle, see how long it will take for the heater to start warming your frozen feet up. Because it has to heat up all the water in your engine in your hoses and your radiator at the same time. Now if we could only make a part that would retain (catch) just about 1/4 the water in your cooling system (engine block). This would the stat! It keeps the water in your block so it can heat up to the degree of your paticukar stat then open. This is why the heater works fast. Now were getting some were. Now we know that a stat will restrict water flow actually stoping it for a certain period of time. Take it out and it takes forever to heat up because it heats up all the water insted of 1/4 of it. But once it heats up how does it cool off run 1 certain temprature? It doesnt sure it will top out eventually, try cruzin the local stip at 5 mph one of these hot summer nights what you think happens? Over heat for sure So now we know that we need stats right, or they would not put one in every car from the factory no exceptions! But if your wondering how it cools, ok now your started the cold engine the car warms up to the stat temprature ( so the heater works good and fast! It opens the hot water flows out of the engine cool water never heated yet from the engine flows from the radiator to the block and hits the stat and because its cool the stat closes and begans to heat up just like before but now the hotr water from the engine is now traped in your radiator (heat exchanger) and is being cooled by the fan and incomming air through your grill. And so on it goes. again and again. Ok now we know we need a stat but what temprature is the question. Most of mopars engine like to run in the 185 to 195 degree temp range. This is were the engine runs more efficient. With todays gases they half too! I have a new camaro with a 350 2001 model it has 10:1 compression and runs 210 degrees, and has ever since it was bought new a year ago. So by nature if a engine likes to run at 200 degrees like a hot small block, or a built 440 why run a 160 degree stat. because it says 160 stat your engine will run a 160 degree! Right , WRONG. Maybe if you have a $1000 cooling system! But still probably not possiable. And after the engine heats up past the stats opening temprature like at 175 degrees it stays open constantly. Just like not having a stat at all and evevtually over heating maybe not always but cruxin around on a hot summer night it will. FOR SURE! So by picking a more realistic stat temprature, one which is in more your engine nature range more like 185 or 190. It will work properly. Because your engine like to run here anyway. And by picking a stat that is slightly higher than the temprature you want it to run maybe 10 degrees higher this can be acheived. I have yet to see a big block or small block form mopar that runs under 180 degrees to my knowledge. Now some suggestions There should be a Autozone near every one out there! They carry Robertshaw stats. They are high performance stats (compare the design of the opening to others there alot bigger for sure. This means more water in, and out fatser. Which is what we like! For things to keep cool. Not having a stat at all may seem to run cooler and maybe on the track (short runs) it might. But after a while the temp will climb steadly till hot , because there is no type of flow restriction. Hope I could help my fingers are cramped!
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Old 07-16-2002, 12:54 AM
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Wow, here is the .02 cent version. Motors like a little heat for better efficiency and for wear characteristics. A cold motor doesnt run well, a HOT motor breaks down the oil, the stat keeps things in the middle. It stays closed until the water hits 160 (example) then it opens slowly allowing water to circulate through the radiator where it cools. Water is always circulating after the stat opens, it opens enough to keep the circulation going to keep the water 160. I dont think it ever closes after it initially opens up, but that may be hard to prove. It also has a wobbler valve for steam and vacuum control. Run one to keep your warm up times fast, important for reduced wear, and to keep your motor at that optimum temp. Dont run one and your car will run at like 130, this is bad. I broke the cage in my wifes Breeze and the car NEVER warmed up into operating range, no heater and increased emmisions.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:11 AM
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hmm....6 packin: i have a 160* stat in my 340... it runs at around 165-170 all day... when i'm on the highway, it might hit 180, but it hasn't hit 190 yet... i have checked it, it does open at 160, then i took it out of the water and it closed up pretty quickly...

i'm not sure of my true compression ratio, the pistons are 12.5:1 with stock J heads...no milling and minimal porting... i used to have a 190* stat in it, and it ran around 200, then 210, then 220...then i ripped it out and checked it... it was a bad stat..didn't open till 230 when i boiled it... so the only one i had (this was about 10pm, and we needed to run the car....dad doesn't like not having no stat in it cause it won't warm up for sh!t...) was the 160* stat...had it in ever since...no problems...runs great, runs cool...i'm happy
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Old 07-16-2002, 07:26 AM
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For newer cars, you really can't play with the reccomended stat temp, because the emissions stuff won't work right unless it's all dialed in. On our older motors and custom built jobs, you can play. Standard theory holds that an engine should operate at about 180 degrees for efficiency, but you know that several things affect optimum temp.

1) spark advance can be greater at lower temps
2) lower temps can draw more fuel mix (does this mean potentially more power??)
3) piston materials which expand with heat (meanining most of us..) will need at least the correct range to seal right


My preference is to keep it on the cool side, for safety sake. I don't have the equipment to compare performance, and i'd rather have more warning before an overheat.

BTW, have any of you had a bitch of a time sealing the water neck on a 360?
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Old 07-16-2002, 11:37 AM
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Thermostat? what's that?
Bypass Hose? what's that?
Heater? Huhhh?

I use my sensor controlled electric fans and Moroso electric w/p to handle the cooling....warm up in the staging lanes to 170....leave the burnout box at 180, top end 190-95....cools down on the return road to about 185, leave the pump and fan running for about 3-5 minutes and she's back to 165-70 "Power Off" time for a Powerade
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2002, 02:08 PM
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Thumbs up sealing the waterneck

Mtrv8tn,

I had trouble gettin the waterneck to seal on my intake and I ended up using a BBC billet piece that didnt suffer from flange bow like the cheapo chrome one I used previously. The only prob was that BBCs use a smaller diameter stat than a mopar so I ran without one for a while. I didnt like waiting to warm up, especially after installing an Edelbrock Air Gap, so I bought the MP piece in the catalog, and was careful to rtv it and not overtorque it. So far no leaks and I'm back to messing around with diff temp stats to see what works best. Check and make sure the waterneck isnt warped, as well as the mounting surface on the intake.

Bruce
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  #9  
Old 07-16-2002, 02:37 PM
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The hotter the engine the better the efficiency of that engine as the fuel will be more likely to burn more completely as the air/fuel mixture expands with heat.

Ideally you want the coldest (densest) air/fuel mixture entering the engine, and heating it up a high as possible once in the chamber to burn it as completly as possible.

The power/efficiency can be proven with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics of actually figuring out engine powers/efficiencies by plotting a pressure vs. volume Otto cycle diagram- only ideal w/ no losses of the system. Gets a little more complicated for actual cycle - at least I thought so in school!
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2002, 03:28 PM
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I have been very interested in the pros/cons of different thermostat temperature setting as regards fuel economy (BSFC) and Torque.

Here's what I have learned so far:

On the pro side of higher temperatures, there is a obvious benefit on the expansion/power stroke of the piston, and a sutle benefit on oil temperature and friction.

High wall temperature due to hot coolant behind the wall means less heat transfer from the hot combustion gases to the the metal surfaces of the bore and cylinder head. If you are an engineer all this is saying is that there is less delta T, so there is less heat loss. The lower heat loss should mean more fuel efficiency - especially at low rpm. The main benefit is at low rpm because there is enough TIME for heat transfer to occur due to the time of the expansion stroke of the piston is relatively long. Heat transfer has to have both a temperature difference and TIME for it to happen. As rpms climb to high numbers the TIME of the power stroke is less and heat transfer declines as a proportion of the total energy. The stroke happens so fast heat can't slip away. Fancy name for this is that it 'Approaches Adiabatic' where Adiabatic is a Greek word meaning 'no loss of heat.'

The sutle benefit of hot thermostat settings on oil temperatue is kinda tricky.

As the wall temperature of the cylinder bore goes up, the viscosity of the oil clinging to that wall goes down, and low viscosity oil generates less friction as the piston rings rub. This lower friction leaves more horsepower and torque available and improves fuel economy too. This is exactly the same effect as using 5W-20 wt synthetic oil during dyno runs.

Think about this and you will realise that you can 'fine tune' the situation with the oil temperature this way. An engine actually needs two different oils - one to lube the journals and another oil to lube the rings. Thermostat setting can be 'tweaked' to allow cooler oil direct from the oil cooler to lube the journals while higher temperature and lower viscosity oil is used to lube the piston rings with the least friction. {of course the oil has to have a high breakdown temperature and superior film strength for this to be successful}

But all is not good with high coolant temperatures.

If you analyse the 'Carnot Cycle' efficiency, a cold combustion gas takes less work to compress on the compression stroke.

If the air and fuel is heated by hot cylinder walls during the intake stroke then you not only have to expend more 'negative work' to compress it before the sparkplug fires - but as is well known the air/fuel is less dense {due to the higher temperature} and less oxygen is available so less maximum hp and torque can be produced.

Another practical downside is that a hot air/fuel coming in winds up much hotter after compression. This hotter mixture is more prone to detonation/pinging. Because of this greater danger of detonation, the compression ratio has to be held lower than it otherwise could have been - unless higher octane gasoline is available. This lower CR hurts both fuel economy and torque - particularly fuel economy at part throttle.

The above problems of transfering heat to the air/fuel can be made less if the cylinder walls were made out of something that strongly resisted heat transfer - like ceramic. Nikasil cylinder liners used in Mercedes 4.3V8 are for this reason, and because they create less friction agains the rings.

So what is the bottom line?

Most of the auto companies seem to have settled on either 195 or 197 degree thermostats for conventional setups where the thermostat is at the outlet of the coolant from the engine at the intake manifold. For the newer engine designs with the thermostat placed at the coolant entrance to the engine block (Dodge Magnum 4.7V8) the thermostat temp seems to be a lower 180 or thereabouts.

With the Engine Analyser 3.0 software from Performance Trends.com, the maximum fuel economy of a 360 V8 with Magnum specs seems to be in the 195 range, but does not change much if you vary from 180 to 210. At higher thermostat temps the predicted fuel distribution to all 8 cylinders improves and this shows up as better fuel economy and torque particularly at low 1200-1800 rpm.

I have run MPG and pinging tests with 205, 195 and 180 thermostats in my 1995 5.9 Magnum V8 Ram pickup and found NO measureable difference in either MPG or pinging.

I also ran awhile with a broken factory issue 195 thermostat that failed in the open mode and let the coolant temperature stay around 140. At 140 degrees the MPG was down but the engine did not ping as bad.

Continental Motors {the aircraft engine maker} did research on cylinder wear rates and thermostat temperatures. Continental found that below 180 cylinder wear goes up rapidly, and at 140 it is three times worse. The graph of this is in the book "How to Rebuild Your Small Block Mopar".

Page 75 of the 1969 edition of "Auto Mechanics Fundamentals" by Martin W. Stockel, published by Goodheart-Wilcox shows the same Continental research and also shows fuel economy to be worse below 180. At 180 degrees the test engine burned 2.8 gallons per hour at 29.5 hp, but at 140 degrees it worsened to 3.2 gallons per hour at 28.5 hp.

I am presently running the Evans Cooling 'waterless' NPG coolant in my 1995 5.9 Magnum V8 and intend to try some high temperature coolant runs. I have had a Stant 205 thermostat and have a HP Robertshaw/Siebe 180 in there now. The Evans NPG coolant is not supposed to boil until 360 degrees F so it gives you room to play. To get the coolant up to the 250 degree range I will have to tape off part of the radiator or perhaps install a cable operated valve in the radiator hose before the radiator inlet.

At the Evans Cooling website they have a testimonial from a Ford engineer who claims his personal vehicles have run better at 220-260 degrees with the NPG coolant.

You might want to read this press release to see what Chrysler engineers recently did to get better MPG using coolant and air temperature tricks on the 4.7V8:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L20613741

note the bit that says:
"* Improved cooling technologies, including electronic thermostat,
electric water pump, transmission temperature management and multi-mode temperature strategy (5 percent) "
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:55 PM
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Nice write-up Hankl.
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Old 07-16-2002, 04:39 PM
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Thanks what I'm taking about!!!

I knew this board could muster some science if forced to,...

Thanks to all - this is exactly the "why" I was looking for...

I hope we all feel more informed - Good topic - who started this string anyway... hahaha...
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  #13  
Old 07-16-2002, 09:08 PM
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Science, ya, but I drive a lot for pleasure, and it's no fun having a 5 degree bumper between normal running temp and a boilover.
I'm especially at risk now because I've installed A/C.

Now we need to chat about coolant types, mixes, pounds of pressure in the system......
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Old 07-16-2002, 09:09 PM
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BTW, I've solved the water neck leak with black goo, a sealant that comes in an orange spray foam can. It works great, sets immediately. Got to clean it up quick, before the excess mars the chrome, tho..
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Old 07-17-2002, 11:34 AM
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mtrv8n - couple things:

1) Water alone can take more heat away from the engine then a water/glycol mix (although the mix boils at a higher temp). If you run no glycol, try to add a bottle of corrosion inhibitor to it to prevent rust. Things like "Water Wetter" add water's tendency to "grap and hold" onto the block and rad better by adding surface tension.

2) Higher the pressure, the higher the temp water will boiler at. Although small changes in pressure have little affect. By increasing the pressure 5 pounds (say 15 to 20#), you would gain 14 deg until that distilled water boiled.

3) Some people go for the A/C factory water pump impeller or a Flow Kooler unit - sometimes this hurts as it circulates the water too fast not giving it enough time to take heat away from the engine / letting the rad cool it off. But in most cases it helps.

4) Get the BIGGEST rad you can fit. and when I say big, I mean wide big, not really core big. A 28" 2 core rad would keep a engine cooler then a 22" 4 core rad (even something stupid like 8 cores!) any day. With this, again simple thermodynamics and the delta T factor. As the air passes the 4th core, the air is heated up to the point of nearly what the coolant is, removing little heat (if any). I've got a 28" 3 core unit I got from a '72 Polara Cop car in my '67 Satellite - car cars runs only a needle or two into the operating range of the fatory guage where my 22" 4 core unit would run only 2 to 4 needles from the high end of operating near "H". Am I losing power because my engine isn't hot enough - probably. But it's a Street car (that does run high 11's at the strip), and I could care less about the tenth I would gain with the added drivability I get.
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Old 07-17-2002, 11:58 AM
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Lots of good information here! I would like to make a few points, however.

1. The rating of a thermostat is not the temp it will always run. You need a higher temp to open the thermostat to its max than to just starting to open. On the high flow stats that I use, the difference is from 182.6 at cruise (mostly closed) down the road to about 188 idling (mostly open). This is on a 180 rated thermostat. These temps are taken from the Speedpro EFI temp sensor that is very close to the thermostat.

2. Be careful when comparing water pump impellers and buying either an AC or non-AC pump. The impellers are actually backwards from what logic would say. The AC impeller is SMALLER than the non-AC impeller. You will get more flow from the non-AC pump than the AC pump at a given pump speed. The reason for all of this is that with AC, Chrysler spun the pump faster by using a different (smaller) pulley size on the pump. AC cars spin the pump at about 1.3 times the engine speed, non-AC cars spin the pump at about .95 times the engine speed. The actual water flow at a given engine speed is probably very close to the same, if the correct pulleys are used, but the big advantage for cooling comes at idle, because the fan is spinning 30% faster with the AC setup.

3. I have found that switching to an aluminum radiator is only a big help in cooling if you have lots of airflow. On the TT340 the Griffin radiator did not do much good at idle until I increased the fan speed to move more air (AC pump and pulley). The aluminum radiator actually cooled worse at idle with the electric fans, which move much less air. All you need to do is look at an aluminum radiator and see how huge the air gaps are compared to a copper/brass one.
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Old 07-17-2002, 05:19 PM
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I like Cuda66s method best!
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Old 07-17-2002, 07:51 PM
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Note that Cuda66's method is very similar to the tricks the engineers chose for the 4.7V8 mods.
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:00 AM
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Ahhh...Haaaa...see I really are a enganear

I also used a Jeep CJ radiator (got a deal, $25.00 brand new) and had the inlet and outlet bungs moved to use the shortest hoses possible....I'm not even going to mention where I got the dual electric fan system....nope, forget it, I'm not telling.
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:05 AM
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oh come on!! you can reveal your souces to cheap, good quality parts to us....

we promise we won't bug them too much.......or take them all....
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:16 AM
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It would be way too embarrassing....
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:19 AM
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steal it off a ricer?? ....ehh, he didn't need it anyhow.... i won't forc...no, i won't TRY to force ya...you don't have to tell if you don't want but some of us are young and very curious...
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:24 AM
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Dam, my secrets out....now I'm gonna have to kill ya....









86 Stanza wagon...shhhhhh $10.00 at the wrecking yard.....with harness....
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:58 AM
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cool... hey, i promise i won't tell ANYONE!





hey, whatever works.... why spend $40-$100 on new fans when some used cheapies work just as well?
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Old 07-18-2002, 05:11 PM
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Do any of the cars in the junkyards have 16, 17, or 18 inch diameter electric fan blades?

I would like to try to retro-fit an thin single electric fan in front of the viscous fan/clutch in my 1995 Ram.

If I could do this I would keep the ability to use both fans, but run most of the time with the electric fan and the blades of the mechanical fan removed {but the clutch in place}.

The shroud in front of the existing mechanical fan on the Ram seems to have quite a lot of room, but ideally you need a large diameter fan as the shroud keeps getting bigger as it goes toward the radiator.

I have run a 216 mile test on the highway at a steady 70 mph with the mechanical fan removed, and with the AC on. The temperature stayed rock steady at about 184 degrees as reported by having a ScanTool diagnostic scanner hooked up to the PCM computer. If I turned the AC off the temperature of the coolant would drop to 180. On this test run the MPG was about 0.9 mpg's better than a run I had made on the exact same stretch of highway a day before.
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Old 07-18-2002, 05:49 PM
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auxilliary elecric fan..hmm..cheap fix/insurance....i like it..
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