69 RR B1 stroker mishap

[440-4x4]

I purchased a 69 Road Runner with a Muscle Motors built stroker motor - B1 BS heads. This car was completely redone by previous owner, and he allegedly put only 500 miles on engine before he scorched a rocker. He replaced it and then didn't really drive it, as he claimed to be "paranoid about breaking it". Now the fun begins.

While driving it home, it made some terrible grinding noise, and then lost most of its power - but still had oil pressure and low temperature... We took it apart, and discovered the passenger side rockers were all pulverized, scorched, etc., and #8 dropped the exhaust valve. He had the shaft in upside down, so it was not oiling...

Had the valve replaced, and the remainder of them checked - it's all good. Put the car back together (with the shaft set up correctly) and set timing, etc. Drove about five minutes, and it pulled hard and sounded great. Then, suddenly it started pinging as if timing was too far advanced. I retarded it slightly and still had same problem, even at very little throttle. It made it to a friend's house about five miles away, and then it would not restart. After cooling, it started fine. Coolant level is good, oil is a little dark, but pressure of oil is now only about 30 when hot (was 50). Engine sounds as if it has 6 cylinders, and is knocking under any load.

I pulled valve covers back off, and valve train on both sides is fine. Ignition as far as timing, plugs, and wires also appear to be good. It just has no power. I'm going to check compression tomorrow.

Does anyone have any ideas about this? My fear is a bad bearing / rod... Hope not, but running out of other possibilities. I should mention that the knocking is all the time, whether car is hot or cold. Also, when I drained the oil after the first problem, it did not look bad, or contain any chunks of metal / aluminum.

[opnwhlracer]

I would not start this engine again! Pull it, take it apart, and find out what went wrong. Sounds like some clearance problems with the bearings and pistons maybe? Gas not enough octane for compression #? Maybe it detonated itself to death? Major damage I fear. The fact that the guy had the rocker shafts in upsidedown makes me wonder about how the rest of this thing was put together. Good luck!

[1972roadrunner]

and #8 dropped the exhaust valve

was there any damage to the piston or cylinder wall?? personally, i would tow it, the tear it completely apart and rebuild it...but thats just me...

one thing you can do, take the pan off, then pull the main caps off and check the bearings... also, when you looked for metal in the oil, did you take the filter off, cut the casing and look inside the filter? check the inside of the pan also... but take the main caps off (i would do it one at a time, and be sure to have a book and torque wrench to re-torque them) and look at the bearings... with the pan off, you can also get a look at the piston skirts, and the bottom of the cylinders, as well as the rods etc...

[cuda66273]

Sorry man, I feel for ya.....

No point in saying much I think you already know the answer......

Be sure and have it tore down by a reputable machine shop and have all problems documented, you may have a legal case here. Possibly fraud or misrepresentation.

[451Mopar]

Sounds almost like a valve not seating when hot?

[beepbeepsrule]

Timing chain slipped or keyway hole cracked and let the gear(s) move or maybe the cam actually broke and only the piece still hooked to the gear is spinning. With oiling problems like that there is no telling what piece(s) got stressed and gave up.

[gsmopar]

A Chevy guy must have put the engine together... Sounds like you have some pretty killer parts so it should make for a fun rebuild. Good luck!

Greg

[440-4x4]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll post results of the inevitable teardown... Last time I'll buy an engine that somebody else built. "Saddler racing" leaves a lot to be desired.

[451Mopar]

Speaking of used engines, A Lawer friend of mine told me about a client that sued a guy he bought a Chevy engine from. Whe the engine wouldn't run right they tore it down to find the engine had a few flat top pistons mixed in with some dome pistons, and that was just the beginning of the problems with the engine. I think the valve train was a bunch of mismatched parts too.

[cuda66273]

Saw one recently where the pistons were installed upside down...not much left...

[atoetly]

Yes people need to be very very careful about JUNK engine builders!!!

[440-4x4]

Did a compression test today, as a last hope before yanking engine...

Number 4 had 30 psi, and 8 wasn't much better. Took intake off and cranked engine over - that's when I noticed cam had rounded on those cylinders. Can only assume that was an after -effect of the whole rocker mishap... Guess I should have thought to check the cam before I put it back together.

Contacted previous owner today, who admitted "I may have put the rocker on wrong". No shit dumbass!

[timty2]

I gotsta know...

Cuda66273 said he saw pistons installed upside down?

How can you even install a piston upside down? Was it upside in the bore without the connecting rods attached during rebuild? I'm having trouble visualizing this.

Man Jeff, I feel bad. I hope you get your cash back on that deal or it was a great deal to begin with. That bites.

[440-4x4]

I was also curious about the upside down pistons - how could you even get the thing together that way, much less start it?

The RR was a good deal, and dumbass sent me some money today after our discussion. More than the cash, it's just annoying that I was buying a 'turn-key' operation and it's a constant pain in the ass. Rebuild won't be all that much, but wanted a car for this summer...

Anyway, thanks again to those who offered advice.

[pishta]

piston upside down most likely means the "eyebrows" or valve cutouts were on the bottom of the piston instead of the top. Of course you know what that'll do to valves. First motor I ever rebuilt, a 318 (Mopar from the git go!) was assembled missing a main bearing half. I wondered why I had like 7 PSI at 3000 rpm. A quick fix after only about 10 seconds of running, it was the cap half. Live and learn

[cuda66273]

Pistons upside down.....LOLOLOLOLOL...thats funny I should have proof read that post a little more carefully....

I meant 180 degrees out....sorry if I gave some of you a headache trying to figure that one out.

The guy who did it has tons of money and he just wrote a check and ordered a new motor ....pre-assembled this time...

[1972roadrunner]

boy...wish he'd share the wealth w/others in need of motors....

BTW: i understood what you meant....just used whats left between my ears....got blowed out from the noise of my brothers 440 w/uncapped headers

[cuda66273]

Hope it's not permanent damage...I'm down to about 20% hearing in my left ear from years of timing Sprint Car engines with open headers.....Doc says I listen to my music too loud....if he only new how sweet that music really was.....

Can you hear me NOW?

[1972roadrunner]

verison wireless...."good"

naw, its not permanent, just 2 nights of headaches. the music is very sweet... my dad is the same way, he's losing his hearing from driving AND tuning sprintcars... can't forget the late-models though.... wonder how many times he lost his eyebrows....

heres a pic of a car he used to have. it had a Chevy 400cid stroker (350 crank) / 400 turbo with torque converter cut in half and a couple of disks taken out of first / quick change rear...not sure where its from.


he won "best looking car" in a parade with this car... right after he won the award, he went racing and a jealous guy rammed him and took most of the right side off... dad ripped the rest off, then drove like a mad man winning 1st 3 laps ahead everyone else....

[cuda66273]

Here's a shot of my last fleet..

The modified is a Mopar 360 Dirt Modified...we finished 1st in points for the year.

The number 3 car is a 360 Sprint, and we finished 1st in points for the year.....

The number 9 car is a Sportsman Sprint..and we finished 1 st in points for the year....

Hummmm...is there a pattern forming here???

Anyhow after a season that ended with 55 checkered flags and 3 Track Championship trophies I retired from the dirt took a couple years off.
Now we're back trying to get this Drag Racing thing figured out....

[Lee Pritchard]

One thing you need to check when you have this motor apart is to see if number #3 cam bearing has a FULL grove cut in it!!! This is must when running B1 bs heads or the rockers will NOT get the right amount of oil.... Lee...

[1972roadrunner]

those are some nice cars cuda... my dads pretty much just like you... he was racing dirt track for many years, and his towing truck for his late-models etc (not a big covered trailer, just a flat trailer with tire rack) was his drag truck. it had a 396 R/T motor, don't know bore but he had a true 13.4:1 compression and he ran aviation fuel... i'm not sure of all the details of it but he said it was a very fast truck, and w/the 4.10's in the rear it towed well.

[71383bee]

Sorry to hear about you motor Jeff. Did you buy the runner from around here? I notice that you are in Waukesha. I keep my bee at my Dad's house in New Berlin. If your interested there is a good show coming up on the 28th at Great Lakes Dragway.

[440-4x4]

Lee,

Thanks for the info about #3. Being new to B1 heads, I was not aware of that - and maybe it's part of the problem with this thing. Appreciate the help

[440-4x4]

71383bee,

Bought the car in Indiana... We'll be at Mopar days on the 28th. I doubt the RR will be there, but I'll have my 440 powered Big Red truck - you won't miss it. We'll also have a 70 orange Charger, and possibly a white 69 RR (not mine). Stop by if you see us.

Jeff

[71383bee]

Yeah I don't know if my car will be there, but we may be in my buddy's yellow 72 New Yorker. I'll keep an eye out for you.