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  #1  
Old 08-18-2002, 01:33 AM
440-4x4 440-4x4 is offline
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Default Rocker shaft upside down, cam wiped out, new cam wiped out...

I won't put all the details here, as they are in previous post (overheating / low oil pressure), but the basics are:

Bought a RR with stroker engine. Passenger side rocker shaft had been installed upside down, and rockers were destroyed on # 2, 6, 8, as well as lifters and pushrods. Ordered complete new rocker assembly, and lifters and pushrods for that side of engine (drivers side was fine). Installed, and cam immediately (within 30 minutes) was completely worn on passenger side. Figured MAYBE the new lifters weren't a good match, so ordered a new cam and lifters from Mopar Performance, which is what the previous one was...

Anyway, car ran about 30 minutes with new cam, then got hot and wouldn't restart until cold. Checked compression - it's 150-160 on every cylinder. Had someone crank engine, and observed rockers. You guessed it, # 2,6,8 had little lift. Took engine back apart, and cam is worn again, and lifters are toast.

Cam moves back and forth a bit, and does not appear totally centered on lifters (should it be?), but appears centered on bearings...

Drivers side of engine is fine, as is #4, which was not damaged the very first time.

Engine is being pulled tomorrow and going to machine shop, but I'm looking for ideas on what to have done. Could the whole rocker issue the first time have damaged the lifter bores, as several of them were jammed in, and two of them had pushrods permanently wedged into them? Everything appears to be getting oil, now that's it put together correctly. AND, since #4 and 1,3,5,7 are all ok, that leads me back to original problem.

If only the builder had put shaft in correctly

Any suggestions on what to have machine shop look for / at would be greatly appreciated.

And as long as we're on the topic, has anyone ever heard of turning a 400 into a 497 stroker - which is what builder claimed it was? Muscle Motors only lists 451 and 474 and 496(440 block)as choices...

Want to drive this car at least once this summer without it exploding - what do I need to fix??????
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  #2  
Old 08-18-2002, 10:27 AM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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Since the rocker shaft was upside down, this caused extreme wear. OK, This you know. But I start the reply with that becuse of what happens when you have wear like that.
Metal shavings....now theres a ton of them running around your engine in every nook and cranny.
You change rockers etc... But the shavings were still in there. This will wipe anything out. Including your new cam and new rockers. They will get into ever little spot includiong the liffter bores.

CHECK EVERYTHING!. Good luck.
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Old 08-18-2002, 10:40 AM
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cuda66273 cuda66273 is offline
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There are several reasons for cam failure:
1. Oiling
2. Coil bind
3. spring pressures
4. Dirt
5. Valve geometry
6. Cam bearing failure

...and there's probably a couple I've missed

In your case I would probably say #4 Dirt.

Look at the lobe and you'll probably see deep circles cut in the surface and your lifters will have scratches straight across the face.

The previous damage caused small metal particles to get circulated through the engines oiling system, as soon as you fired it off the particles got between the cam lobe and lifters and once the metal scored the lifter it could no longer rotate and hence the grinding began.

Anytime you eat a cam or any other internal component you have to pull the motor down and boil the block. You'll probably find that you've also damaged the piston skirts and cylinder walls unless you got extremely lucky.

Sorry about your bad luck but I believe that whoever built that engine should be held 100% accountable for the destruction.


Don't feel like the Lone Ranger here, I had a friend bring his 340 over last week, so called "Professionally Built"....same thing.....one shaft on upside down, the rockers were on backwards on one side and the saddle bolts were torked so tight that the bolts were stretched to the naked eye......we sorted it out and it appears that we caught it all time and no damage *fingers crossed*

Mopars are differant, there NOT a small block Chebby and it takes knowledge and expertise to machine them and build them correctly, there is no shortcuts, it must be done right.

Wherever you end up taking it be sure they know what they're doing or you'll end up copying and pasting this same post next week.

I'd really like to follow through with this, let me know what they find on the cubic inches and what there opinions are on the cause of the failure.
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Old 08-18-2002, 12:14 PM
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Hello guys!

Correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't completely buy the metal shavings theory. If the oiling system is full of shavings won't this contamination kill all of the cam lobes as well as the main bearings, rod beardings, etc, some of which, if I remember my fluids class correctly, see more oil pressure than the cam because they are further down in the engine and closer to the pump? Unless, of course 440- 4x4 did not properly clean the lifter bores and the shavings were right there. Just trying to get myself educated here.

Thanks...
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Old 08-18-2002, 12:58 PM
Moparjimbo Moparjimbo is offline
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I have been working with 440-4x4 on this - the unusual points about the whole thing that stand out are:

1) He is only wiping out cam lobes on 2-4-8 on the passenger side...and only since the rocker incident. Even during the rocker incident the cam was fine, it has only been wiping the lobes since fixing the rockers. The rest of the cam is fine. The oil is CLEAN, its been drained, changed, etc. a million times during this process. In the mopar book, it looks like the oil passages go through that side first then oil the other side. If the oil or dirt/debris was a problem, I would think he would wipe OTHER lobes as well, plus bearings, etc. So the problem seems to be isolated to the cylinders that he damaged with the rocker arm incident.

2) Another thing is that the cam lobes that are wiped are worn VERY funny - they are not only flattened out so there is no lift, but they are worn side-side EXTREMELY like almost to a point- like at a 30 degree angle. It is like the lifters were somehow able to tilt side-side on the cam.
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Old 08-18-2002, 01:19 PM
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Do you have a picture of this failure? If your suspicion is right, I'd check the lifter bores and lifter cleareance. They usually see little wear, but who knows. What kind of lifter are you using?
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  #7  
Old 08-18-2002, 01:27 PM
Moparjimbo Moparjimbo is offline
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The cam and lifters were MP, came as a set.

Again - only having a problem with 2,6,8 and oil is spotless so I would think its not debris in the oil. The rocker incident had to cause some type of damage to the 2,6,8 valvetrain, we just have no idea what...

Worst scenario is like Cuda said - we rebuild it again and since we don't know what to tell the machine shop to fix we have the same problem...
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Old 08-18-2002, 01:36 PM
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If you rebuild your engine and the lifter bores are shot you just wasted your money. When I asked for the type or lifter I mean hydraulic, mechanical, roller? My guess with your description ot the wear is that the lifter bore is tapered and allows play. If the valvetrain was bad I would expect to see damage to the top of the lifters also. Again, I'm no expert here.
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  #9  
Old 08-18-2002, 01:56 PM
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dirty dan dirty dan is offline
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Lightbulb oil passage

Jimbo
befor you send the engine to the machine shop.
Put a cam in the block and lifters in on the good side of the engine.
then use an oil system primming rod to turn the pump . with the lifters out only on the bad side you will be able to tell weather or not the oil is being properly supplied.
If you don`t see a lot of oil moveing through the empty lifter holes then the oil passage to that bank must be blocked .
It wouldn`t be the first one to have this problem.
Hope it helps.
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  #10  
Old 08-18-2002, 02:53 PM
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MoparJimbo.....there is alot of good info and Dan is exactly right about the test. You simply have a lack of oil to the right side of the engine (2,4,6,8). The right rocker shaft is oiled by the #4 cam bearing. You probably have a #4 cam bearing that is slighted turned restricting oil flow, or plugged. The lifters on 2, 4, and 8 are the farthest from the point of oil entry to the rocker shaft and probably show the most wear. Once there is an oil shortage, the taper on the face of the lifter wears flat or concave and it will no longer turn in the lifter bore, causing the rocking or side to side scuffing. The left side is also oiled by the number 4 cam bearing but the oil will flow to the side of least resistance. This is not to say that there is not dirt or particles blocking passages, I just believe this is where the trouble started, and it is possible to isolate one side of the oiling system on the big blocks. The valve train geometry on the big blocks is almost perfect and failures of this type are rare. Follow the oil trail and you will find a restriction and it is from the #4 main bearing to the #4 cam bearing to the rocker shaft. Complete dissassembly, brush cleaning, hot soap and water, and passage tests may be required. Good luck and best wishes with the project.
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  #11  
Old 08-18-2002, 03:33 PM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Hi
Ive got a starting up problem earler this year but not as fatal as yours!(usÃ*ng hudralic lifters)
My problem was caused by the Moparperf cam that shows up a minor baselobe than my old original!
This caused a heavy ticking noise and nothing seems to help!
I change lifters twice,,at last I put back my original pushrods and by some reason they took up the missing clearance and now im running well!

When I was most desperate I also have the idea of checking the oilflow to the rockershafts!!
Isnt it possible to set the cam in an exactly angle and by that open up the channel to the rockers!?
I remember I could put a long pin all the way down and feel the surface of the 4th bearing!
It must be possible to set the cam right,,,,and then run the oilpump with a hexshaft and drill and by that check the oiling without totaly deassembly the engine!!
Anybody tried that trick!!??
Best regards Olle
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  #12  
Old 08-18-2002, 05:23 PM
Moparjimbo Moparjimbo is offline
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Its a solid cam, no apparent damage to the top of the lifters.
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  #13  
Old 08-18-2002, 07:03 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Those who think this may be an oil restriction problem - any explaination as to why the #4 lifter is okay and the other 3 are damaged?
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  #14  
Old 08-18-2002, 09:52 PM
440-4x4 440-4x4 is offline
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I will try the oiling test tomorrow, and post results...

We cleaned the cam bearings and lifter bores before putting it back together, and there was little, if no shavings anywhere.

Again, it is only on 2, 6, 8, not entire side of engine.

Keep the suggestions coming, and I'll let you know the outcome(s) as determinations are made.

According the Mopar engine book, oil goes through passenger side first, and then to drivers side, unless we read that wrong? If it was plugged, does it still have a way to get to drivers side?
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  #15  
Old 08-18-2002, 10:11 PM
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Hammer 74 Hammer 74 is offline
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When metal to metal contact is made it does not allways make shavings. Sometimes it just galls up the hole or lifter and does not let the lifter spin. I like dirty dan's idea to check the oil flow. I am not sure but if the cam is not completely worn out then it is a lifter/rocker problem. The cam gets oiled from the overflow of the rocker shafts so if only one side is worn then I think the problem is from above the lifters. If you use a MPP cam again I recomend not using their cam lube. Just an idea. Let us know the outcome.
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  #16  
Old 08-18-2002, 10:24 PM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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You right, I missed that description in this thread. Good points being brought up. I'll be following this thread.
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  #17  
Old 08-18-2002, 10:57 PM
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Did you pull the head and make sure the valves are ok? A sticky valve can put alot of extra pressure on the lifters and cam. It happend to my buddys chev.... had all the same problems except it only happend in the #3 cylinder.
Just a thought.... hope it helps

Good luck, Chris
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  #18  
Old 08-18-2002, 11:37 PM
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It is not my style to correct any post, only to give information. The oil flow on a big block is oil delivery from the filter up to the right side main oil gallery, from the right main oil gallery passages thru the block web to each main bearing and from the individual main bearings directly to the corresponding cam bearing above. The #4 cam bearing oils both right and left rocker shafts. The left main oil gallery receives oil across the back of the block via the right main gallery. The cam bearings are oiled directly from each main. The fact that number 4 cylinder does not receive damage is somewhat confusing. Due to the position of the #4 cam bearing, the best chance of getting any oil would be 6 or 8. Please pass along any findings you might come up with. We are all here to learn and pass it along.
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Old 08-18-2002, 11:51 PM
Moparjimbo Moparjimbo is offline
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The number 4 is also the only one that didn't have rockers damaged originally. Number 2,6,8 all had broken mangled burnt rockers during the original incident. Including some of the pushrods DRIVEN into the lifters. The cam was fine until those rockers were replaced, along with all new lifters on that side. The question remains what damage did the original rocker destruction cause to those 3 cylinders that now makes them eat the cam lobes...
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Old 08-19-2002, 12:47 AM
Olle B Olle B is offline
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Hi
This row:
According the Mopar engine book, oil goes through passenger side first, and then to drivers side, unless we read that wrong? If it was plugged, does it still have a way to get to drivers side?

Thats depend on if theres an restriction and where its in that case is located!
IF the restriction is in the long channel pointing to the rockers and after the cam,,then YES ,,,

Is it possible that MP drill the oilsupply channel in the cam 4th bearing in wrong angle or not 100% thru,,both causing to small amount of oil entering the rockershaft?
You cant be to sure,As I mention, they make my new RR cam with 0.015 smaller basecircle than the original!.
When I have my initial starting up problem it was only nr 8 ex and 3 in making noise,Im not sure if the quality check line worked all right the day my cam was shaped.

You told the parts was worn out in 30 minutes!
How did it sound when idle after cambreakin when you realized it was worn out?
Tapping,,,,any other unpleasant noise?
Best regards Olle B
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Old 08-19-2002, 12:11 PM
6pakman 6pakman is offline
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here's the real deal, all those lifter bores get oiling from there respective holes. they also get oil from the drip down from the rocker shafts. what i think has happen is that when mr impatiant installed the shaft the wrong way, it put alot of wear on those lifter bores. those bores are machined to EXACT spects and MUST stay that way!! in my opinion theres to much wear in those bores and oil going into them now does not help at all. also remember that that lifter has to spin as its going thru it's movement. to much wear and it not only will spin incorrectly, but to much side to side play. hence, the wiping out of the cam lobes. metal shavings don't even come into the picture. if there is any. as far as repair, make sure the shop does a measurment on those bores, in fact have them check them all. good luck.
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Old 08-19-2002, 09:01 PM
cdignition cdignition is offline
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I agree with the thought of the lifter bores being out of whack...the lifters must spin....


I do not agree about lifter bore oiling...I entireley block off oiling passages to my lifter bores...pound a freeze plug in the rear of the block to prevent pressure from going down and oiling the lifter bores...there is big time oiling just from the crank, let alone other things...(if its a Hyd, it needs oiling for the lifters to work)...I run my moder to 7500+ with no problems..
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Old 08-19-2002, 09:03 PM
cdignition cdignition is offline
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FYI, I run Indy heads with stock type roller rockers(Hughes) and also have restricted oiling to the heads....060 hole in the oiling lines...
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  #24  
Old 08-20-2002, 03:32 PM
440-4x4 440-4x4 is offline
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Default The mystery grows

Well,

Pre-oiled the engine and took out one lifter at a time. They ALL oil very well (small gusher).

Spoke with the local engine shop - who has built many engines for us - and he had little to offer as far as an answer, which gives me concerns about taking it there.

Also called Muscle Motors. Engine builder is out for a few days, but will call me when he returns.

The lifter bores seem to be about the only thing we haven't checked. I'm not aware of any way to check those myself, so depending on what MM says, it might go there for repair. I guess bushings, with a switch to a roller cam, wouldn't be all bad...
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Old 08-20-2002, 05:06 PM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
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Because the lifters and pushrods are both being destroyed, I would look at valve movement pressures or interference. Interference between the rockers and spring retainers can cause the the valve to hang open a little, in turn increasing lash and allowing the cam lobe to strike the lifter well after the opening ramps.

I can't see this as a lubrication problem to the lifter/cam area because of all the oil being deposited from crankshaft.

If it is a case of bad lifter bores, what caused them to go bad in such a hurry in the first place? I don't know.

This is another one of those situations where we all need to be there to look for ourselves inorder to make a better GUESS!

Good luck with tis one.

Billy
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Old 08-20-2002, 05:15 PM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
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without measuring exact dimensions, you can use a snap gauge to get the size of a lifter bore that is not having problems and compare to the problem bores. You can also use the snap gauges to check for roundness and taper of the lifter bore. These snap gauges can be had in both inexpensive and expensive varieties from most tool guys.

Billy
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Old 08-20-2002, 09:37 PM
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440-4x4

There is a local shop that built my 383. They did a decent job and they were also working on a couple of hemi's at the same time. They are AME racing on 124th st by Butler. You could also try Kilpatrick's in Waukesha too.
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Old 11-14-2002, 04:15 AM
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Well............
I would really like to know the outcome of this one.
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  #29  
Old 11-14-2002, 08:59 AM
440-4x4 440-4x4 is offline
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No outcome to report as of yet. Took engine out, and then bought a house and just completed moving... Car should get some attention again in about a month.

I'll post results then...
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:16 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Why on earth would the lifters need any more oil than what returns from the heads to the pan? All the oil in the engine goes through the drivers side lifter galley, if there would be oil supply problem it should rather be on the drivers side. I have even blocked the drivers side lifter oiling with no harm, and actually my current block does not have oiling to either sides lifters. This situation is really weird. I believe thtat for some reason the lifters are not rotating properly, better start with checking the lifter bores.
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