440 project

[plymsatellite66]

OK guys, I have really appreciated the help you have given me trying to make my 318 keep up with the pack around here. I have however come to the decision that my 66 Satellite needs a 440, you see there is a 67 firebird just rolled into town with a 455(454?) bored or stroked/bored to 470 and is just barely beating my Mopar friends and they are running mid 13's. Can anyone suggest a build up for a 440.

My plans to date:

727
suregrip 8 3/4 (gears?)
maybe between 10.5 to 11.0 : 1 comp. (yes, expesnsive gas)
Undecided on heads, with the price of aftermarket probably ported stock for now.
headers
carb size?

well, that's whats spinning in my head for now as the engine goes, if you guys could give me some advice, or relate your own setups I'd be grateful, oh yeah, winter will be here in Iowa in a couple of months so the car won't see daylight til spring so I have time to work with.

[DartGT66]

I'll try to give some hints. First, I would rethink wether you want to use race gas. The price difference between them is big and the benefit isn't that big. This is actually a pretty difficult question because you didn't give any budget frames, or wether you are willin gto upgrade in the future and how much.

Assuming you should go about 12.5's to beat the torchchicken I think you don't need that much, but I'll give you a reciepe if doing a complete rebuild. Any 440 would be a good starting point, the older steel crank engines may take a little more abuse and are internally balanced which is an advantage. If using a cast crank, get the B&M flex plate for it so that you can use zero balance converters.

In the short block, I would just rebuild it and use pistons that have generous valve reliefs and come close to zero deck height, then I would mill the block to achieve zero deck. This will give you room for adding the CR with a head change later and with the stock open chamber heads leave some room for acjusting the CR with head gasket thickness. This should bring you to about 10:1 with open chamber heads that have not been milled a lot. I would also invest a little in to the pistons to get them lighter than stock pistons. KB's are a little lighter and still decently priced while for example ROSS's cost more but are even lighter and forged.

I would use the stock LY rods, balanced and beams polished and resized with ARP bolts. If going with ROSS's, I would consider bushing the small ends for floating .990" chevy pins. Have the reciprocating assy balanced.

The block should get all the normal prep. I would install a 1/2" pick up and a bigger pan with a hi volume oil pump and enlargen the oil passages from the mains to the lifter galley according the common instructions. Add a MP windage tray with the slots opened some more. If line honing the block, install ARP main studs before that. It isn't a bad idea anyway, but requires the linehoning after installation.

New cam bearings and oil pump shaft bushing should be used. Use a roller timing chain and for the street a cam with about 230-240 degrees at .050" and around .5" lift. I would try one like comp cams 284 extreme energy with the recommended valve springs.

For heads I would use any heads that should come with the core 440 you buy. I would perform a MP template port job, or take the port job out of your hat if you understand porting stuff and have 2.14/1.81 valves installed with a good valve job and new guides if needed. Mopar Muscle had a good article series about big block head porting and I believe it's on their web page. I wouldn't bother polishing the chamber or anything like that.

I would check the lifter preload and adjust it correct with rocker shaft shims if needed. Or use adjustable rockers and pushrods, this way you would be ready for later solid cam upgrade.

For the intake I would use the Performer RPM or if you are concerned with the hood clearance some lower single plane like Torker 2 or Holley Streetdominator; I believe they van be found used for a good price.

MP electronic ignition is a decent piece, I would use that and recurve the distributor if needed. If willing to go with a better system I would use MSD 6 AL eiher with the stock or a MSD distributor. Good quality ignition wires and a Blaster 2 coil would be my choice.

I would pick a 750 - 850 Holley, either vacuum or double pumper. The vacuums are more forgiving as far as the tune up goes and can be made quick with changing the secondary spring to a light one. They are also softer in the launch which will help if you have limited traction.

I would use regular 1 3/4"-1 7/8" headers with 2.5" duals and a X- pipe and some performance mufflers you like.

As far as the converter goes, either a 11" or a tight 10" should do the job. Install a deep trans pan and a good tranny oil cooler and the 727 should live forever. For the gears I would use either 3.55's or 3.91's. This all should give you some room for further upgrades and give enough performance for most in the streets.

All well done you should have a high 11 - low 12 second combo here with sticky tires and slightly prepped stock suspension.

[6 packin]

10.5-or 11.:1 will result to more than High octane pump gas! More like race fuel! Maybe you can run than high octane at the pump but your timing will suffer big time! Maybe if your lucky run 25-28 deg advance total! This is not good for power! Why not go for 9.5:1 and go for 36-38 deg advance! This setup will make more power with less compression, do to more aggresive timing curve.

[powerwagon]

Good luck with the rebuild, where at in Iowa is Charles City? I'm from bout a half hour south of Des moines on I-35. Semper Fi

[dynorad]

If you use zero deck with closed chamber heads you should be able to withstand .5 to 1 point of compression more. Aluminum heads will raise that another point.

Also it would be a very good idea to use some sort of cold air induction. Heated air in the engine compartment can kill up to 10% of your power.

[Doug Wilson]

Sat66 - you are getting great advice. Everything the other guys said is right on the button.

My changes to the other recommendations - I'd definitely buy the bare Edelbrock open chamber aluminum heads and hand select the components in them. They are well worth doing some scrimping and saving to get.

I WOULD polish the combustion chambers on either aluminum or iron heads.

I would use the Edelbrock 800 cfm carb.

And... I'd do exactly what the other guys said.

[Luther]

plymsatellite66 - Great advice from everyone.

You may want to take a look at the cams that Hughes Engines has to offer. I am running one of their .560(I), .575(E) lift "Max Vel Solid" cams on my 440 with Stage VI aluminum heads. The engine is absolutely "out of control" on the street, yet I do not have any significant problems occasionally driving my Cuda back and forth to work through traffic. Certainly better than the Mopar solid "Purple Shaft" that I used to run.

Anyway, wish you the best with your rebuild.

[ehostler]

I think that I would go with the EB 6091 (84cc) closed chamber head and the matched Performer RPM intake. For the exhaust, I'd go with the TTI 1 7/8" primary with 3" collector backed by their 3" exhaust system. For the rear, I'd say a 4.10 gear. Talk to to hughes about the best cam for your setup. Once you have the cam, talk to the guys at Dynamic Converters, to get the best torque converter for your application.

If you haven't done so already, upgrade those front brakes to a disc setup. Your going to need that kind of stopping power.

[plymsatellite66]

All of your guy's help is great, I think I am ready to start my build up. I have a chance to purchase a 75` 440 block. the guy says it's a motorhome casting so the water jackets are keyhole shaped instead of the standard ronud ones, I've never heard of that, but then again I'm new to BB's. I know a guy who'll give me a steel crank and I work in a parts store so I can get some kb pistons pretty cheap. One more thing about the block, the tranny mounting ear near the starter is busted off, the guy was going to weld a valvspring retainer on it or something else similar, what do you guys think, worth $125 for a bare block never been bored over? THanks again for all your help. You guys are terrific.

[Doug Wilson]

I'd be inclined to pass on it and look for a complete engine. That will save a bunch, in the long run.

I don't like the busted block, either.

[Luther]

Agree. I'd hold off on the block deal. Welding stuff to a cast iron engine block is just not a good idea.

Be patient and keep looking. Their are still plenty of 440 engines, short blocks, and blocks out there.

[Doug Wilson]

Another intuitive, intelligent, great looking person with a fabulous personality is heard from!!

[DartGT66]

I think too, that the best starting point would be a fully complete engine. You would save alot over a bare block start. There is nothing special in a motorhome block; they went in to the figure 8 shaped water holes in all later blocks. In a moderate street pump gasser you can pick up any year 440 as a starting point. You should think wether to put money in to theold iron heads or pay slightly more for the Edelbrocks. This way, if you go with zero deck height and the closed chamber heads, you should be very safe with pump gas and make great power. The Edelbrocks cost a little more (or less, depending of the case) than prepping the iron heads, but work better out of the box than fully prepped iron heads, and are brand new. Another thing worth considering is aftermarket rods; prepping and balancing the stock rods will cost at least half of the price of new aftermarket CAT or EAGLE or Manley steel rods, and even after that they are just old stock rods. Although they are a little lighter than the aftermarket stuff. BTW, Last winter we built an engine pretty much like described above. A zero deck short block with LY rods and TRW forged pistons (2266's) and block milled .090". We used a mildish 230/236 degree @ .050" hydraulic roller cam ground be Scott Brown; he visits this Forum too and is the top guy I know in understading and grinding custom cams for BB mopars. Heads are out of the box Edelbrocks with a performer RPM and a 3310 750 cfm vacuum Holley. These parts are in a stock bodied '73 Coronet with all the bells and whistles weighing 4300 lbs race ready, 11" converter and 3.55 gears. It run 12.727/112.5 mph last saturday with less than ideal traction.

[gsmopar]

plymsatellite66,

If you're interested I have a great set of 915's that I'll sell you. Depending on how fast you want to go I also have a Tunnel Ram (port matched with the heads), couple of holleys, and NOS Cheater plates to top off the combo. You'll definately beat the Pontiac if you bolt this stuff up to a forged piston engine with a good cam!!!

Later,

Greg

[plymsatellite66]

Hey thanks alot, I'm probably going with the edelbrock heads because I can buy them pretty cheap through work as well as a set of kb pistons and I'll check out our rod selections.

gsmopar, thanks any way, but I am tight for clearance and I'm not into the whole nitrous business.

powerwagon, I'm in charles city, north central part of iowa. are you big into power wagons? if so a buddy of mine is looking for some 70-71 parts email me if you can plymsatellite66@hotmail.com

[Doug Wilson]

I've got a '73 Power Wagon that is a rust bucket - no engine or trans, but it's a 3/4 ton so maybe some parts you could use.

[plymsatellite66]

hey, thanks doug, I'll let him know, all I know for sure is that he's looking to add p/s to his 360 he's got in there, don't know if a 73 would even work.

[Doug Wilson]

Me either. It was a 440 LoadFlyte - with P/S.

[plymsatellite66]

well, I've chosen a few parts for my 440 so I thought I'd run them by you guys

kb pistons, flat tops
edelbrock 84 cc heads
edelbrock performer rpm
flowtech heads

those I have selected and prices on for that much I'm looking at $2k. I'd like to stay under $2k for the rest of the engine, do you think it'll be possible, I figure around $200 for a block to work over and a steel crank I can get for around $50 from a guy I know. I was also thinking about a demon carb.

What's your opinions?

[dynorad]

Make sure those pistons will make 0 deck, or at least require a minimum of machining on the block to get there.

[DartGT66]

Seems good so far. Take care of that zero deck thing. Get a Fel Pro gasket set for the engine so that you get the correct head gaskets for your heads in the set. 2000$ for the rest may be hard pressed if you don't have anything but the crank & block so far, but with careful shopping it could be reachable. I wouldn't invest on a Demon. On my opinion the price difference is too big over a Holley conisdering the possible advantage. I would find a good used proper size unmodified Holley and fix it with a trick kit.

[plymsatellite66]

yes, the kb pistons are advertised as able to acheive zero deck height.

DartGT66, I guess the only reason I went with a Demon is b/c I have heard really good things about them and I strayed from a Holley b/c I've got one on my Satellite now and it refuses to run right.

Just wishful thinking on the price range for the rest of my engine. Thanks again for the help.

[plymsatellite66]

what rods woulf you guys suggest? are Eagle rods good? saw them in a book at work, but I've never heard of them before. If anyone around norther Iowa has a 440 block, let me know, please, I think I'm ready.

[Chuck'64]

plymsatellite66 what year 440 block are you looking for?

[Doug Wilson]

It really doesn't matter, unless he's looking for a correctly dated block. Even so, it still wouldn't be numbers matching.

Any 440 block punched 0.030 or less would work fine.

[Chuck'64]

Well in that case I might know where to get a whole motor pan to carb for around $300(?) its in a dodge van up by Fayette, Ia only thing is it might be a cast crank.
E-mail me for detailssavoy1964@hotmail.com
Chuck

[DartGT66]

I have used Eagles without any problems. Other decent priced rods are Scat and Manley. This might be worth checking: http://www.manleyperformance.com/con...hrysler-h-beam

[cuda66273]

Doug sent me this link so I guess it's time to jump in with my 2 cents worth.

Demon Carb..excellent choice, if you haven't bought it yet hold on until you get all the numbers together and I'll help you choose the correct one, then I'll work with you on tuning it correctly for your application (see my post "4 Corner tuning)

Heads...read my post on "Detonation", if your on a budget I'd rather you used a set of 906/915 heads and invest your $$$ in a Dynamic convertor. Toomuch2 has 3 sets of cores sitting in his shop.
Call GS Mopar and get his details on those 915's
If you use my formula for head porting and combustion chamber conditioning along with the 11/32 valve combo they'll make awesome power.


Rods....SCAT, Manley, Cat and Eagle are all made in China and in my opinion are no better or probably worse than the good Ole Mopar 440 rods you can pick up at a core yard for usually $125 or less.

Cam.....once you get your short block together and all the numbers calculated call Racer Brown and talk to them, in my opinion for what that's worth, they are THE Premier MOPAR cam grinders in the nation.

Pistons....Find a Probe Piston dealer, made by Ross and order a set of of their forged slugs....you'll be glad you did. Just few bucks more than the KB's


Valves...before you order any valves talk to Racer Brown and let them help you balance your valve train to the cam, ask for Jim and tell him I sent you.

Fuel delivery...this is critical and after you get the numbers together and we select the correct carb for your application I'll help you put it together.

Convertor...listen to Ed.

Traction...you better save some money for some hides and wheels, 3.91 or 4.10 gears will be fine.

A properly prepped 440 will anialate that Fire Chicken, but remember no matter what you build someone with a bigger check book will always whoop you in a heads up race.

Every part needs to be balanced and matched to the others, cam, pistons, valves, head ports, fuel etc. all need to be matched for optimum performance.

There's some great info here, read it all, then read it again, listen to the experts...they've been there.

Those 915's would be a great set of heads, get all the info from GSMOPAR and figure out what you need to do on the rest of the motor to make them work....sorry GS, I don't think the tunnel ram and Nitrous is the right combo here.

Look around for deals on a MSD or HI-6 box, you'll need the distributor reworked and curved and get ready to dump some weight.

Go here and read about Mopar 440 logic:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/big-d/polytek.htm

$$$$ or science...your choice...read line 1 in signature.

[Domestic]

This has really got me fired up to build a 440 with a 150 horse shot of nos, for some <10.99's.
66Plymouth

[gsmopar]

If you want the heads let me know asap!!!! They'll be on EBAY either this weekend or next (have to borrow a camera from a friend). If you save me the Ebay hastle, I'll sell them for what I have into the port work $400. They have P2806077 Springs on them so you're set if you run a big solid cam I'll provide the receipt and name of the shop that did the port work if you have any questions.

Later,

Greg

aultlt1@cox.net

ps: Domestic, I've got the killer intake/nitrous combo too!!! You can run any were from 125 to 250 on the plates or from 75 to 400+ on the intake.