318,340,360 What to do????

[diego-ted]

My goals with this car are as follows, I want a car that has some pull on the low end, able to smoke the tires and make you take notice. I want to be able to drive 8 hours straight if I want "to go to events" and not have any problems. I know with my 318 I am not going to try and out run the big boys in the 1\4 I just want good all around performance. This is what is in the car now.

Re-manufactured Napa 318 "long block 3K miles"
Re-built 904 slapstick with a shift kit "not sure which one"
8 3\4 with 323 gears
eddi 650 carb with aluminum intake
headman headers
MP performance ignition "orange"
I will run 245-15s on the rear.
(I can not smoke the tires by just jumping on the gas)


Please bare with me, I am new to this MOPAR stuff, but I am excited. One of the mechanics I know says I should just forget about the 318, and put in a re-built 360. Money is tight, but more importantly I do not want to waste it.
************************************************** **
What is written above was my last post. Since than after much checking around, I have 3 choices.
1. Work on my 318, do heads, cam, My cost about $900
2. Put in a rebuilt 340 I found. Work was done on the motor it has about 10-1 compression. cost $2000
3.Build up a 360. cost about $1800

My Mech. says I would be be better off building the 360, I would have more than enough power and I would know what is in the motor. With the 340 I would not know what went into the motor and who did it ect. Ps. I can not find a core to rebuild my own 340. He also says I would never truly be happy with the 318.

My only concern about the 360 is it was not true for the year of car. 71 challenger. Your thoughts please.
diego-ted

[rumblefish360]

Build it the way you like it. Nevermind what is correct. I understand about money being tight. How ever, if you settle once, you'll not be happy when you relize it and want to do it again. Do it right, do it once.

I would do a 360 engine because of the the ease of getting a 360 block/engine to rebuild and longer stroke it has. This provides more torque down low.
Since your looking at a totally new build up, keep compresion no higher than 9.5-1 with iron heads. Otherwise the octane of gas could be a problem. The older 340's with the higher comp. rateings also had higher octane to feed it. This is no longer around so, 9.5-1 should be your limit.
Smoke shows are cool. Lets not waste time on smokin them. The get up and go factor is beter to obtain. Since this is what wins a race. Be it for money or pride or just teachin a brand "X" where it's at.
Question, 625/600 or 750 edel. carb? (Since they dont make a 650)

[gotcha]

DT.....Based on your original post, here are some thoughts:

(318)
Positive: The parts and pieces you have for the 318 will certainly fill the requirements of your driving needs as described, and the 318 is a super dependable cruiser with the possibility of good performance. Cost is low and parts are at hand.
Negative: No, you will probably never be quite happy with it, and the parts and pieces you have will work on the 340/360. A 340 hood on a 71 Challenger makes a statement.

(340)
Positive: A 340 in an E-body does make a statement, was available in 71 as an option, and though it is not original does increase the value of the car. (depending on overall originality)
They are fun, powerful and dependable.
Negative: The 10.0/10.5 compression pushes the limits of driveability as your original statement required. Reduced timing, higher octane fuel requirements, higher initial investment, and the unknown condition of the internals of this used engine. For your 8 hours trips, hardened seats are necessary. Most people who own 340's (myself included) have a hard time keeping the foot out of the carb. Before I bought this engine, I would certainly do some research and soul -searching. More than one person has purchased a money pit, because it was a 340.

(360)
Positive: Will do all you require and provide excellent cruising capabilities with a higher performance level. Good combo engine. The benefit of using your pieces, and doing or seeing the work done. Can build to required compression, etc. With the parts you have....I would think you could do this for about $1200-$1400 after acquiring a core 360, excellent internal pieces, and including valve and head work to install 2.02-1.60's with hardened seats, if not present on the heads. (Most likely will already be there)
Negative: Produced in 71, but not in a performance version. Showed up in the E-bodies in 74. Does not have the heritage or mystique of the 340. Having to acquire a core. You can use your trans and converter, but will have to acquire a B&M flexplate with weight added. (not expensive)

From a pure money standpoint.....keep the 318.

For a head turner with a large budget....340

For the best all around combo, with moderate budget.....360

That should have really confused ya!!

There should be a lot of opinions on this one. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[BrianU]

You didn’t state the performance goal, only you want reliability and be able to smoke the tires with 3.23 (SureGrip?) and 245/60-15’s. I’d go with the 360 for the following reasons:

1) Torque is what you’re looking for on the street. A mild reliable 360 will deliver in spades.
2) Cost, you can find good 360 cores cheap, about $150 - $200!
3) Rebuild cost, about the same as a 318!
4) You can reuse the following parts to save $$$
a. Re-built 904 slapstick with a shift kit "not sure which one"
b. eddi 650 carb with aluminum intake
c. headman headers
d. MP performance ignition "orange”

You also stated that the budget is tight, so here is what I would do:

Look for any complete non-roller camshaft 360 (Pre-Magnum, 1989?), the earlier the better, but to save some cash, a 1974 – 1978 would be best as you would be getting hardened exhaust valve seats for unleaded fuel. Look at the casting date on the block and the motor assembly date on the driver side front head (In 10,000 day code). You can look for an earlier block, (1971 – 1973), but you’ll have to replace the exhaust valve seats for unleaded fuel.

Don’t forget you’ll need an externally balanced torque converter. Keep the stall low for your setup (no more than 2500Rpm or so) with the tall tires (246/60-15 = 26.57”) and 3.23 gear (2800Rpm @ 65Mph with 5.25%Torque Converter Slip).

Purchase a complete rebuild kit from Summit ($300) Summit cheap cam & lifters (.218/.228 @ $75) with new Mopar springs # DC-4120249 ($100), Summit timing chain ($42), a Mildon lifter valley pan ($27.50), Mopar windage tray, a Carter Street mechanical Street fuel pump ($56) & machine work to the short block (bore, hone, deck, clean, freeze plus, cam bearing @ $350) and a head rebuild with some very mild pocket port work ($300).

This is also a good time for a new standard volume water pump (Mopar, Milodon $60) and a Viscous Fan package from Mopar. Don’t forget a transmission cooler running in tandem with the standard radiator transmission cooler. Since you’re in San Diego, I’d block the heat cross over on the intake manifold.

You’re looking for no more than a TRUE 9.5 CR. KEEP the 1.88” intake valves if they are reusable. As above, you MUST have the head pocket ported! This is MUCH more important than upgrading to 2.02” intake valves. With the tall tires and 3.23 gears, you need intake velocity, not volume. You can upgrade to a better manifold and it will be a good move. I’d be looking for a used Performer RPM.

This combination should put a 3700Lbs race weight car with 3.23’s and 245/60-15’s real close to the high 13’s @ 100Mph in the quarter, cruise forever at your highway speeds and run on crappy 91 octane. I would think the shift points would be @ 5400Rpm with this camshaft. You can always up grade the carburetor to a 750, but it isn’t needed up front.

More gear (3.91) or less weight (3400Lbs RW A-Body) will allow more camshaft like the COMP XE268 (.224/.230 @ .050), but be careful not to over cam your street car unless you are more interested in the sound of a lumpy camshaft than putting down the numbers above.

One more thing, you can look for a stock type Mopar aircleaner and put a 340 Pie Tin o

[Doug Wilson]

360. Don't use the cheap Summit timing chain set. Get the Cloyes True Roller at about $100. This is good insurance.

[lenweiler]

Rumblefish: Build it the way you like it. Never mind what is correct. It's so good to hear someone have the gonads to say that. After almost 20 years of restoring Chryslers and being pissed off when the first person to comment on it, is some self-appointed expert telling me that my alt. has the wrong date code!Well, That's why I'm talkin' to you guy's.
I agree. Go with the 360. Whew!

[Doug Wilson]

Doncha just LOVE this forum????

[littlecampbell]

I agree ! Do what makes you happy...BUT ....Is the Challenger an original 340 car?....I would do all I could to track down who rebuilt it etc, etc....before I did anything.....I finally tracked down the rebuilder of my 340 and was pleasantly surprised ...Theres the mystic and beauty of the Challenger and Barracudas....with the 340!......Like Doug says "Doncha just LUV this forum"

[Doug Wilson]

That would be: "mystique", but I know what you mean - it's true.

[littlecampbell]

I was just seein if you were on your toes Doug!....(SP)...your RT must be around .430.........right?.....Hey Doug , Im using only 94 Chevron octane.....Should I try some kind of octane booster??..No big deal, seems to run fine now but always lookin for a little extra

[72Challenger]

94 octane? Sheesh. Ours got lowered earlier this year to 91! And it's $1.89/gal., which is what, about $12.00/liter Canadian?

Seriously, octane booster won't give you "a little extra" unless you've already got a detonation problem. Well, it will make your wallet a little extra lighter...

[littlecampbell]

Hey 72!...94 octane ranges from 88.5 to 77.5 a litre ...which would be about 3.50 Canadian a gallon ....hope this hasnt opened up a can of worms!

[72Challenger]

If I actually knew what the exchange rate was maybe that would be a little more meaningful. But to get 94 octane I'd have to blend my own.

[cuda66273]

Unless you are a highly trained professional do try the 318 at home, they require the expertise of a rocket scientist to make them run like a modest 360.

You just want a good responsive reliable engine...do the 360 you'll never regret it.

There is no replacement for displacement.

If I had spent as much time and money on a 360 as I've spent on my 318 we'd be running in the 10's, I only chose the 318 because nobody had one...I like to be different....Dodge different...

[lenweiler]

You're way outta whack on the cost of Canadian gallon of juice. It's only 11.75 a gallon.

[biggerhammer]

I say go with a 360, also, for general knowledge, the octane in the fuel you get is iffy regardless,! what they use to raise the octane anymore is prone to evaporation, so when you buy gas, get it when the place just got filled up, find out how often they get filled, if you shop there a lot, they will usually tell you, and a lot of places don't really have three in-ground tanks, but have three grades of gas? easy to figure that, huh! if you catch them doing that, (two tanks, three grades) turn them in! usually to the people who's name is on the sign.

[Doug Wilson]

If you aren't experiencing pre-ignition/detonation now, then you should jack in some more spark lead until you do... then back off a little. Usually this is a roadside excercise - turn it up, drive a ltlle, turn it up more, drive a little - get some ping, back it off a little.

Usually, I test for ping by driving up a gentle grade at part throttle in high gear, and then gradually opening the throttle to listen for ping.

[rumblefish360]

diego-ted; Don't skimp on parts. Pay the piper once!

BrianU; Is that a 600/625 or 750 Edel. carb? Since they do not make a 650 cfm unit.

lenweiler;

I hate...

some self-appointed expert

I don't like those people. Please, take it on the hop elsewhere.
Your quotes, advice and pointers are useless to me.

It's so good to hear someone have the gonads to say that.

Keep tuned, theres plenty more where that came from.

But, that's how I feel. Cars are here to enjoy. If resto is your thing, GREAT! Go for it. I think we need guys like that. BUT! , DON"T preach to me about my car or a can of verbial abuse might insue. I'm a resto guys worst nightmare. NOTHING reamains stock.
NOTHING!
But hey, that's just me. I can't help myself.
To run HARDER
Gettin DEEPER into the next second
Going FASTER.
HARDER, DEEPER, FASTER!
Wait, where have I heard that before?????

[littlecampbell]

"doesnt matter where you are as long as it was deep"...That one ...............The CARS

[Doug Wilson]

There must be SOMETHING I can say to all that...........

[littlecampbell]

Watch it now Doug......the Moderator may get ya!...or me for that matter

[ajmopar]

360, definately. As I am now older and more experienced, I would side with the opinion that you should spend you money wisely now. I would go with a hughes cam now, and get the right stick, right out of the gate. Buy the good timing chain and you won't have to worry about it later. Make sure, and I mean sure right now that you match your torque converter to the cam, heads, compression and gearing. Read the posts from cuda66273 on tuning the engine to it's full potential and do your Mopar bretheren proud. Enjoy stomping chevies when this thing is done.

As for people who feel they need to critique every detail of your ride, I say go buy a corvette and cruise at 20 mph all day. I build cars to run, look good and be dependable. Whether it has the correct heater hose bracket matters not to me, as long as the hoses aren't rubbing through on the alternator. Dig?!

[BrianU]

rumblefish,

I was quoting what Deigo-Ted said he had for parts on hand! I don't know what it is

I also don't think you need big camshafts and gear for a good running street car, not that you said anyting about that!

I would also recomned, since Ted is in San Deigo, that he checkout PAW (818) 678.3000 for machine shop services and parts. I'm assuming it isn't too far from him in S. Ca. They did lots of work for Mopar Muscle's Steve Dulcich hot 360 build up a few years back.