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  #1  
Old 09-17-2002, 10:33 AM
wedgehead wedgehead is offline
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Question O-ringing heads

Hello guys:
I'm a drag racer but I need some professional help with small blocks. I want to O-ring my heads instead of my block. Is this feasible for a stroked small block? How about the seal, is it as effective as o-ringing the block? Thanks in advance Wedgehead
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2002, 05:41 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Yes, you can O-ring the heads. But, it is more difficult than the block.

1. The cylinder head deck is thinner than the block. Therefore, you want to use the minimum O-ring depth possible. .035" welding wireworks well for O-ring material. You will need to cut the depth for the O-ring .018"-.019" deep. I always installed the wire in the groove with a small brass hammer and used SuperGlue to hold it in.

2. The location of the O-ring groove is critical. I suggest placing the heads on a bare block and scribing the cylinder bore on the heads to get the exact lacation. You want the O-ring groove location just behind the compression ring part of the head gasket. If you get part of the metal O-ring on the compression ring, you will not get a good seal.

3. Good luck, be very careful getting the location correct.
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  #3  
Old 09-18-2002, 08:10 AM
RonsDirt RonsDirt is offline
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Default Safety Wire

Not to say that Charles is wrong, Just this is the way we do it on block. Using .032 Safety wire we cut groove .025 deep x .032 wide on Boreing machine.(.007 wire above deck) just at the rear edge of sealing ring on gasket, by biting into the metal it makes a TIGHT fit around Cly. and seal. Gasket will give enough to bite the wire good. This method has held up to 13 to 1 compression ratio and a .060 mill on head. Mopar says to stay away from sealing Ring and put wire behind it or it will leak water. Never had that to happen with our way, and grooves do not overlap each other with bigger bore.

Ain't life grand, ask a simple question and get 2 complex aswers.
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2002, 09:15 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Ron, no one is right or wrong(that's the reason they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream), everyone has an opinion.

You don't show as much of the O-ring as I do. That may be the reason you can get on the gasket compression ring without problems.

Wedgehead, the deeper depth of the O-ring cut may be the answer for you. That will give you a little extra margin for safety when cutting into the heads.

As a backyard machinist, it is not always easy to hit a head perfect when cutting O-ring or gasket receiver grooves.

Ron, did you get my e-mail of yesterday?
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  #5  
Old 09-18-2002, 12:47 PM
AVENGER29 AVENGER29 is offline
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Stupid question, maybe, i've been told that i must o-ring or loose head gaskets. We run better than 12.4 compression, turn engine 6,400 at end of every straight away and have been doing so for at least 4 years. We have never lost a head gasket....Never!!!
Are we lucky or is it really necessary??

Avenger
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  #6  
Old 09-18-2002, 07:11 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I think(remember this is an opinion only) that there is no magic reason for blowing head gaskets.

Very few 2 barrel engines blow head gaskets regardless of compression(up to 14 to 1).

Very few engines blow head gaskets that turn only low RPMs(under 7000).

Very few engines blow head gaskets that race on slick tracks.

Very few W2 headed engines with race blocks blow head gaskets.

So I think it is a combination of several factors that cause the head gaskets to blow. And, I think block flex plays a big part in head gasket blowing. The thinner the deck on either the head or block allows more twist of the block which seems to lead to gasket failure.

So I think the majority of the problem is with High Compression (14 to 1 or more), High torque, High RPM engines racing on tracks that provide a lot of traction that give the major problem. So I think it is a function of how true the block deck stays-compression only makes it easier to fail.

Don't know- but that is my warped logic!
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  #7  
Old 09-18-2002, 07:26 PM
AVENGER29 AVENGER29 is offline
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We run a restricted engine, 4412 2 barrel, methanol, and i can proudly vouched that we have the best dry slicked drivers in the world locally!!!
Average temps here, from april to october will range into high 90's to low 100 every day. Add a fair amount of breeze coming off the Gulf of Mexico and you have a busy concension stand selling plenty of safety goggles....
We host a large imca modified race in early december, and for last few weeks we have had some drivers making the trekk from up north seeking some seat time in a little dust bowl, few sat nites back they back flagged several, unable to make clean laps, after 2nd caution they flagged you off the track, especially if your spinning out by yourself...I've never really raced on anything but dry slick, not sure i would know what to do on a heavy track.

Avenger
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  #8  
Old 09-18-2002, 10:14 PM
wedgehead wedgehead is offline
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Post Engine setup

The motor is a R1 race block race W2 headed 400 c.i. small block. Eagle rods, Ross pistons. Comp is 12.7 to 1. Hensley did the motor from top to bottom. I only wish I had told them to o-ring it. I think I'll try it with the heads but I'll be extra careful as ro who does the work. I appreciate all the replies from you guys. Wedgehead
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  #9  
Old 09-19-2002, 02:31 AM
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cageman cageman is offline
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So I can build a 360 with either J's or 308's with 13 to1 and not have to oring it with the 4412 two barrel, Thanks for the info. Its a 72 block so I hope its stiff enough.
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  #10  
Old 09-19-2002, 07:57 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Wedgehead, are you having trouble blowing gaskets? Or are you concerned about blowing gaskets?

With a race block and W2 heads and only 12.7 to 1 compression, I think I would run it as is. If you are using nitrous-I don't know anything about the laughing gas!

Why? We race a little limited engine(360, "X" block, W2 heads, 12 to 1 compression, head studs, etc), turn it up around 8200, have not had any problem with head gaskets.

We do use the 8553 FelPro (cheap) rather than the 1008 FelPro (expensive).

We do use the three step method for torquing head gaskets; initial torque during assembly, retorque after initial firing of engine and torque the third time after the first race.

Cageman, the only thing that would concern me is the 13 to 1 compression-LON, jump in on this one, this is in your area. What is your opinion?
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  #11  
Old 09-20-2002, 06:04 PM
340king 340king is offline
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Default 'Sperience

I can't tell you too much except what I have found from my small accumulation of 'sperience, as old DW puts it. I think you can run up to about 12:1 with a stiff deck(s), this includes the heads, with stock bolts, torqued to 105 ftlbs. I use hardened washers under the heads of the bolts to avoid chipping the heads. I also use the Felpro 1008 race gasket. I have had no problems with this setup in the 11.5:1 range. I have run 12.5:1 with ARP studs on two engines, one a drag engine that turns 7,400 rpm at the traps, with no problems. I think that you can get to around the 13:1 range without o-ringing if everything mentioned above is properly set up. Deck finish is also important. A slightly rough deck finish is prefered for composite gaskets. Felpro lists the actual finish and it is in microns of scratch depth if I remember correctly. It is rougher than you might think.

On another note, I was always under the understanding that dead soft copper head gaskets were the way to go with o-rings. I have never run them, but have questioned a few people that have run high compression stuff and that is what they had the best luck with. I just don't know.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2002, 09:25 PM
wedgehead wedgehead is offline
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Post Head Gaskets

Sanborn: I ran NOS for the 1st time last Sunday on this motor. I've run NOS on other motors B4. all small blocks. I thought that maybe this one would hold the pressure with the thick decks and all but now I know better. The gasket blew on the #6 cyl. I think this is the only spot that I saw water spewing out between the head and the block. Timing was on 30 deg. The reason I'm trying to use NOS is that all the Chebbie boys and Fiords are using it. And to say the least, they're flying. We do more grudge racing here than anything. The car is really consistent, works really well in bracket racing. It's not easy to run against big blocks with NOS. Most of the guys will not run without it. I'd outrun some of them on the motor, but NOS makes it a different ball game. Wedgehead
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2002, 07:14 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Wedgehead, Nitrous is something I really don't have any experience with.

Nitrous gives the engine the effect of a supercharger-makes the engine "think" it has many more cubic inches. More torque, more block flex, etc.

How much of a "shot" of nitrous are you giving it?

Did you torque you heads three times?

Are you using studs?

Did you use a sealant around the water passages of the block?

Of course, you know the Fords have the same head bolt system as Mopar. And, I have had problems with high output GMs in the past as well with block flex. Is your "friendly" competition using O-ringed block/heads?

Now, back to your specific problem. Do you know you blew a head gasket? Have you pulled the cylinder head off to inspect? The reason I ask is I have had problems with the 1008 gasket in the past with water seepage but the stainless ring in the gasket was still in place. The stainless ring didn't "crush" enough to maintain good sealing contact of the fiber part of the gasket between the block and heads and the coolant "seeped". If this is happening to you you need to apply a sealant around the water passages on both sides of the gasket.

If you are using nitrous, the 1008 gasket may be the best gasket for you due to the combustion chamber pressure and heat built up. AND machining receiver grooves in the head may be preferrable to O-rings. Why receiver grooves? Because the receiver groove is only .008"to .010" deep, the compression ring goes down into the receiver groove and the compression ring is partially protected from the heat and pressure of the combustion chamber.
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