70RoadRunner440

[rumblefish360]

70RoadRunner440;

I was wondering about your reasearch on the 440 MoPar engine.
Have you looked at these sites to help in the 10sec street ride?

http://hughesengines.com/www/hughesengines/
http://www.indyheads.com/
http://www.coperacingtrans.com/chrysler.htm
http://www.cranecams.com/CraneCams.htm
http://www.compcams.com/catalog/

Any RB block questions? Fire away.
Glad your still here.

[70RoadRunner440]

Rumble,
thanks for lending a hand, I'll post the plans as of now:
Stock 440 block, oiling system (windage tray) and crank.
My plans are to use TRW forged pistons flat top
Stock Connecting rods resized, and using ARP bolts
Heads with casting #915 ported by a respected local porter (he ported a friends "truck" heads on his chevelle going a best 10.48, and will be porting the sportsmans going on my small blcok chevy).
I'm a very firm believer in Iron heads and moderate (10.5:1) compression with a cam that fits the RPM range.
Fitted with manley valves and Crower equipment and Comp valve springs.
Comp Pro Magnum shaft rockers
Stock valve covers if possible (might need to double gasket)
Comp "Street" roller custom ground on a Cast core.
Crower Sever Duty roller lifters with the HIPPO (high pressure pin oiling) option. My buddy with the chevelle has 1000's of passes and over 20,000 street miles on his Crower Severe duty roller lifters so i trust those lifters, i know a few others using them also.

The cam should be about 238/244 dur and near .650" lift
I want reletively light spring pressures (like Comp #933 springs)

Edelbrock RPM intake topped off with a 950HP holley carb with a 4-hole speacer.

The ignition so far is a MSD pro billet distributor, Moroso wires and an MSD 6AL box.

The exhaust is 3" pipe ran into Dynomax Ultraflo's, right now we have Hooker 2" primary headers on there, but IMO TOO big, so i'll try and talk him into a set of 1-3/4" headers.
Also would like to see Flowmaster scavenger Collectors on them, and an X-pipe crossover.

As far as the drivetrain goes i'm trying to talk John into using a Torqueflite trans (thats why i asked if it was easy to get in there) build by a local racing trans builder, with an ATI 8" Treemaster "tight" converter in there.
Out back we have 4.10 gears a sure grip differential and Moser axles (will be installed, but need to head back to moser Engeering to be trimmed slightly since they made them too long).

The car will remain Stock "Appearing" and will be mostly steel with the exception of the hood which was damaged then replaced.

Stock Wheel well/stock suspension car.

[cuda66273]

My 2 cents worth...for what it's worth..

Your well on your way to a great engine, however I have to question your choice of cams...before you spend all that money on a roller you should call Jim Doyle at Racer Brown and talk to him.

Before you invest in a convertor, call Dynamic, they make the best convertors bar none for a Mopar. They will also give you an extensive education on 727's.

TRW pistons???? Heavy, poor finish and ugly...Why not a set of Arias and get a real piston?

If you want to go real fast I'll set you up with a Demon.

[70RoadRunner440]

Cuda,
We're set on the roller cam, John wants to install one, and i know we can run it on the street. If you know the right guys at Comp Cams they'll build me what we really need.
Wouldnt mind talking to Jim Doyle, whats his e-mail or phone?
ATI makes the best converters that i've seen, and i've seen plenty in action on street/strip rides.
My friend's chevelle has a 1.38 60ft time in a 4000lb car with an ATI 8" treemaster that's been custom built, and he has 20,000 street miles on it, thats enough for me
TRW pistons work fine for quite a few of my friends (two off the top of my head are a small block 3100lb camaro going 10.80's and another is a big red chevelle BBC running a best of 10.48).
I dont care what they look like they go in the engine.
Why spend a ton of extra money when i wont get any better performance out of them, longetivety or any thing else.

Its a personal thing but i dont like Demon carbs i've had a bad experience with not only the carb but the Tech at barry Grant, so it's Holley HP for me nothing else.

[ehostler]

OK, here is where your GM/Chevy knowledge is getting you into trouble. You can't build a MOPAR the same as a GM and expect the same results. If you are going to build a MOPAR, you need to stop thinking GM.

The ATI converter is great for a GM, however Dynamic Converters is the way to go for a MOPAR. Nobody can make a better converter or tranny (for a MOPAR) than Frank Lupo. Again, this is NOT a Chevelle or a Camaro.

As far as your Demon experience goes, look at the carb that you used and the application that you used it on. A Road Demon was never intended for a Corvette. The Corvette needs a Speed Demon or maybe a Race Demon. Even though you can get all 3 in the same CFM rating, they are dynamicaly different.

You will find that the TRW pistons will work in a MOPAR, however the Arias pistons a far superior and will outlast the TRW pistons in a MOPAR application.

As far as the heads go, at least open them up to 2.14/1.81 valves.

One final thing, why bother asking for our input, if you are dead set in what you are going to do, regardless of what we say?? If you want MOPAR knowledge and experience, you've come to the right place. If you want to ignore our recommendations and build this MOPAR like a Chevy, then you've come to the wrong place.

[cuda66273]

"We're set on the roller cam"
..no reasoning just gotta have a roller because, it will make you go faster? or, because they make more power?..the answer to both these questions is No....


"run it on the street"
..are you building a race car or a street car you can't have the best of both, you'll end with a un-drivable street car or a dam poor race car.

"build me what we really need"
..I've been on Comps racer program for 20 years, they're still grinding most Mopar cams on the Chebby base circle.

"ATI makes the best converters that i've seen"
...do you know the mathematical formula to calculate convertor efficiency or are you doing this by a visual evaluation?

"TRW pistons work fine"
...so do Badgers, stock cast and Speed Pro, see item #2

"i wont get any better performance out of them, longetivety"
..now there's a statement...I guess I'll email all the custom forged piston manufacturers and tell them to close up shop because TRW makes a $20 piston that works as good as theirs.

Its a personal thing but i dont like Demon carbs i've had a bad experience with not only the carb but the Tech at barry Grant

...you mean you selected the wrong carb for your application and they couldn't make it work for you...remember when you point a finger there's three pointing back.

I think you've made up your mind on what you gonna build a.. "Mochebby", you've been brainwashed by the General and there's no point in continuing this conversation...I've made my point, you don't need me or anyone else here, you obviously know more than anyone here about Mopars so I'll just unsubscribe and go help someone that will listen, learn and appreciate my very limited experience.

I do hope that I meet you at line someday in the first round so you can take the rest of the day off and try and figure out why your 440 won't keep up to a 318...but of course you'll be able to point a finger at Ma Mopar for not being able to build a decent engine.....watch out for the 3 pointing back....

LC…I understand, case dismisse

[cuda66273]

Hummm 2 instantanious posts saying the same thing....Ed, you're nicer than me.

[Lee Pritchard]

It all sounds good but for the 915 heads.....your going to need after market heads to go 10s unless the car weighs 3000 pounds.... My roadrunner weighs 3800..... Just me thinking outloud here ...looks like a 11.20 combo to me . But i maybe wrong ,one never knows......Lee...

[gsmopar]

I could be wrong, but this sounds like a stock engine with a big cam??? I ran a similar set up with more compression, .625 solid roller, 915 heads, etc... and didn't hit a 10??? The roller cam ran like crap too! I wish you posted this about a month ago. I could have sold you all of my old parts and you'd have your engine done

I'm building a similar project. Make the car as fast as possible, but still be able to drive to the local cruise spot. I've since dropped my compression, added EB heads, will probably swap my converter and rear gear, and will turn up the little blue bottle in the trunk until it runs where I want it to

Good luck!

Greg

Oh ya... .650 roller and a Performer RPM??? Kind of a mis match don't you think?

[ajmopar]

You made a good point about header primary tube diameter, but to run tens, you may actually be making enough power to use a 2" tube, but more likely a 1 7/8". But what about primary tube length, collector diameter, making sure they are equal length so you don't go crazy trying to tune it? I agree with everyone else when they say, why come and ask questions if you refuse to use the experience of REAL MOPAR RACERS. Good luck man, you're going to need it.

[70RoadRunner440]

You guys got me wrong here.

i'm not building it into a MoChevy, I'm being taught by a group of bracket racers that've been doing this for 20 or so years and they know what they're doing, and yeah there is a mopar guy in the group.
But what they dont know about is very specific things like the trans question i asked.
What you dont understand is i hang around a group that have proved to me that you dont need shinny parts to go fast, and they ARE going fast.
Unlike most of the people who thing bigger is better, shinnier is faster and what they read in mags is true.

I will be using a roller cam. If you honestly KNow that Jim doyle builds better cams for mopars then fine, i'll see what he suggests as far as a Roller goes.

Have you guys ever dealt with ATI to know that there Mopar converters arent as good as dynamic or as streetable?

I'm Not topping off this engine with a demon, period. It'll be a Holley HP. My friend john has had bad luck with demons as well as myself.
And that corvette has a very stock motor in it that should have worked better with a road demon and it didnt. WHat pissed me off more so is barry grants tech guys didnt help worth a sh*t with there product. Barry Grant wont recieve a dollar more of my hard earned money.

Why do i have to spend a fortune on these arias pistons??? I want to know, you guys really seem like your set on these pistons, go ahead tell me why they are better. Why will they outlast in a MOPAR application? I see TRW pistons last a long damn time, in the chevy's i know, why would they not work in a mopar? Is it not still a normally aspirated torque motor that wont be spun over 6500rpms?

I plan to open them up to 2.14/1.88 valves.
IF YOU GUYS KNOW OF A SET OF HEADS THAT WILL WORK BETTER I'M OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS ON THE HEADS.
I dont have experience with the 915's, but they seem like they're what i'm looking for.

Cuda the point of my post wasnt to insult you, your doing fantastic with what your running, my point was that I'm not easy sold on expensive things like the pistons. I appreciate the advice on the cam maker though. I dont know where you got this: "you don't need me or anyone else here, you obviously know more than anyone here about Mopars so I'll just unsubscribe and go help someone that will listen, learn and appreciate my very limited experience" Did i say that you dont know what your talking about in my post? ANywhere? You need to understand that i'm a hard to sell things to type of person, i've witnessed what stock "crappy" parts can do i'm quite impressed.

GSmopar, I know for a fact what an RPM intake is capable of, nothing will sell me on big intakes that work from 4,500 rpms up, when i'm working in the 3,000-6500 rpms range.
Brute torque is what i'm looking for, a big intake doesnt do much for that.

If you'll notice, I want to use a cam with 238/244 dur, in a BBP it's a short cam, so not much of a mismatch when you consider that, instead of the lift, eh?

AJ, I know what 1-3/4" Headers are capable of, and yeah most likey 1-7/8" will fit the bill, but IMO i dont need them on there i like getting to the plugs.

i didnt even start this post, and i didnt start it to get rideculed, if you have serious suggestions i'm open to them otherwise i'm not.

IF YOU READ IT IN A MAGAZINE, SEEN IT ON THE DYNO, OR HEARD ABOUT IT FROM YOUR NEIGHBORS BROTHER, I DONT WANT TO HEAR IT.
AN ENGINE IS NOT A FLOW BENCH AND A DRAG STRIP IS NOT A DYNO.

I'm interested in what people like Cuda66273, Ehoslter and rumberfish have to say, they're the experienced group so far. So Guys, send the suggestions instead of attacking me, and realise that we're trying to get a 4000lb car moving quick, not a 3000lb car.

[gsmopar]

Sorry man!

Anyway, I've run 1 dual plane (don't remember what it was), a Torquer II, Wiend Hi-Ram, and now MP M-1. Just my .02: The Dual Plane's suck. I had more pull out of the hole switching to the Torquer II. I realize that you hate magazines, but Mopar Perf just did a dyno intake comparison on a crap load of old and new intakes. If you want torque, the EB Torquer was the best. The M1 and EB Victor were the best in HP and Torque, followed close by the Holley Street Dominator. I ran that Torquer II for a lot of years and loved it. Recently I've had really good luck with Mopar Perf Parts so I decided to give the M1 a shot.

The 915 heads kick butt and are the best stock head in my opinion unless you get into the Max Wedge stuff (major $$$). If you go with the 1.88's you'll have to notch the block (if I'm not mistaken). Also, have the Combustion chamber opened up around the exhaust valve (shrouding) and listen to Cuda's tips on smoothing the combustion chamber (lots of hot spots).

Converters.... Mine is a custom made from a local shop in New Mexico. I've been running it for years, it doesn't break, and it stalls at 4k. Can't help you on this one.

[Billydelrio]

Ehostler, I am wondering why the Arias forged piston will last longer than a TRW or Speed-Pro forged piston. Do they use a stronger aluminum alloy or something? This is some information that I can use as I am going to be building another custom stroke engine soon. How do the Arias stand up when compared to ROSS or JE? This will be a major investment for me, so any information will be helpful.

Rumble, sorry about interrupting your thread with this question.
Thanks

Billy

[ajmopar]

The Arias pistons are much lighter, creating a lower reciprocating mass, faster acceleration and will put less of a pounding on the rods, bearings, crank etc., so yes they will make the engine last longer. They are a much higher quality forging (not to take anything away from TRWs, but that design and production process dates back to the early seventies, technology marches on. The cost being the most important thing, go with the TRWs, they won't blow up or anything. I think the point that is being made here is to spend the money wisely in important areas now and it will improve any further modifications. As for the headers, I wasn't trashing you on that point, I was welcoming your desire to pursue something other than the bigger is better formula. The smaller tubes will certainly help in the low-midrange and if they become a restriction on the top end, go bigger later. Most people run headers way too large anyway, so relax, I wasn't knocking you down on that point.

BTW, I think ray Barton uses Ross pistons exclusively in his motors because he can tighten up the piston to wall clearance for better oil control. I'm sure the same could be said for any of the higher quality forgings.

[rumblefish360]

Ahhhh, no problem there Billydelrio. Good question. Your answer;

A lighter rotating mass is what you want. Just like what ajmopar said. It make sense. The less work the engine has to do is better for horse power. I do believe that he's right in saying Ray Barton use's the Ross only. This guy is breaking records and having the HEMI completely rule the comp.
TRW's are said to be heavy. A little reasearch into pistons will tell you who's fat and not.
Look at it this way. If your working out with dumbells, and your doing as many reps as you can as fast as you can. Lets say, pushing the weights from sholder to the sky, would you go faster and father with 70 lbs. on each bell or 15 lbs. ?
Same idea with pistons.

Jim Doyle of Racer Brown has been grinding cams for a very long time. Another cam company like Engle can also look at what your tryin to do a customize a cam. So can Comp. Where you go is up to you. (Hughes sells engle cams custom gound for Hughes engines.
Racer Brown and Engle are smaller companys that are more one on one with the customer and there specific needs. The only way to do better is give them the engine.

A thing you should know about MoPars. There larger lifter @ .904 can handle extreme rates of lift where as the other engines can not. (The smaller lifter hits the cam at these rates of lift.) A cam made specificaly for a MoPar for racing will darn near if not match most roller cams.

On the converter..Frank Lupo has made a name for himself. At least do me a favor and speak with him directly. If then after speaking with him, you still want to run an ATI. That will be fine.

I support your decsion on small tube headers on this as well as carb of your choice. It makes sense.

Did you check out the Hughes engines web site I listed in the first post? They deal with stock iron heads only when it's a big block MoPar.
Indy would be worth a look. Supieror heads for the MoPar.

[Lee Pritchard]

I sure wasn't trying to put you down , just telling you from 30 years of racing mopars what works ..... for the money your spending on the 915s to have them ported and add big valves i would spend 1200 on a set of edelbrocks..... the roller cam is a great idea ......i have gone 10.50s with ross 12.5.1 , 626 625 crane roller cam, m1 intake 950 hp holley.....turbo aution 69 J convertor , 456 gears and b1 bs heads ... They are real close in flow number to the edelbrocks but way more money.. Without good heads and the fact your compression is 10.1 , plus a 410 gear you are going to need a great flowing head.... your 915 heads will never make 6500 even with a 650 roller, you will make more power shifting at 6000 rpms..... look at it this way i have a 708 roller in my latest motor and it done at 6400.. thats with a 1050 hp holley indy heads with 225 188 valves and full port work flowing 365 at 700 on the intake side.. With a good convertor like a 4200 turbo action the M1 intake will work better than the RPM manifold.... I have tried both in the past.....Lee

[70RoadRunner440]

Guys,
Thank you for taking the time to understand my point of view.

GSmopar, I appreciate it, but i know quite a few guys doing fantastic with a dual plane RPM intake. I might like to try the Mopar Peformance intake.

I'm taking the heads (Whichever kind i get) to a local head guy that does heads for alot of local bracket racers. I'll have him smooth the bowls, port the heads and smooth the chambers.
Getting good flow out of small port heads is the ticket if it can be achieved.

AJmopar, i'll try the cheap $150 dynomax headers for now, and if i feel they are a restriction i'll give Jere Stahl a phone call. I dont think that Hooker or any other brand name header will give me better out of the box performance then the dynomax.
But if minimum ET on what we have is the goal then i'll be looking at Jere Stahl or Headers by Ed.

Rumble,
I did check out the head prices on that website, the problem i see is that you need to send them a Core, and 2nd i dont know anyone using there heads. If you do, i'd be interested to hear what they're running.
I'll call Jim Doyle when the time gets closer, and i'd like to give Reed cams a call too and see what they suggest.
I like the fact that the bigger lifter can do more, but the roller is the same size and should be able to do more yet (in thery).

I'll see what frank suggests, but one big reason why i'm sticking to my guns on ATI is i see there converters in action all the time, and most of the guys that I know, using there converters have thousands of street miles (too and from the track mostly) on there 8" treemaster converters.

Lee, good to hear. I have a similar goal in mind, but less compression, and 4.10 gears.
looking into that M1 manifold.
One thing i agree with is good flowing heads, but i want to accomplish that out of small ports so that the velocity is there under 3500rpm.

[Marc]

So if this thing works out low buck and eats your Chev, are ya swapping camps?

[gsmopar]

70Runner,

I have to admit I'm a little envious. All of the fast street cars out here are Fords. We have a couple street-able MOPARs, but they still trailor them to the track. I hate trailors! Half of the fun is driving the damn car... Nothing feels better than pulling up next to a lowered honda civic with a 3-story wing and fart tip... I like what you said about the "shiny parts!" There were Mopars in the 10's long before Indy, EB, or MP had aftermarket heads (of course I'm still running my new EB heads ). A friend of mine stroked a small block chevy to 426 cid. He ran cast iron heads, intake, and quad-ra-junk carb. Used to really piss people off when he'd pop his hood after kicking their butt in a street race! Keep us posted on the project! There are a lot of guys on here that will try to convince you to use cast iron manifolds??? Something about porting stockers and they flow better than headers??? It would look really cool on your project if you could use manifolds and still run in the 10s!!!

[70RoadRunner440]

Well the intention was never to whoop my camaro, but i have different intentions for the Camaro, i'm building that up to run 11's and still be a daily driver. I'll be using a flat cam, dual plane, flat tops and Iron heads on that also. We actually already have the engine that'll be modeling mine after in another car (3100lb camaro) that's running 10.80's on a good weather day, and on hot days it's running 10 teens.
Anyways, the RoadRunner is a different story, John already has a daily driver (2001 Small Block Dakota truck), so we can make his a little more radical becuase he doesnt need to drive it everyday.

[Marc]

I predict you are in for a pleasant surprise.
I predict the Roadrunner will flat out whip your last car, and be MORE driveable to boot.
For less money.

[70RoadRunner440]

Actually the small block/trans going in the camaro is less expensive.
I certainly hope the mopar goes faster and is more driveable, i figure mine will be less driveable then the BBM just becuase mines a small block and i have to wind it out more. I would definetly consider both rides when finished will be very driveable.

[skankweirdall]

70RR440, I would predict you friends runner to be a mid to high 11 second ride if it hooks up. I built a very similar car, 73 Charger. Weighed 3800 lbs with me in it. Ran a best of 11.48.

I hear what your saying about your friends and all but remember that not every Mopar racer knows what he is doing either. We have a local guy here with a 440 Dart, gutted and tubbed, B1BS heads and only runs 10.20's. He is or was a tech adviser for a very large performance cam grinder here too. My streetable, street legal Mopar Performance short block W5 headed 360 with a flat tappet cam runs 10.60's. You do the math there.

I think you are in for a big disappointment. Just my experience talking here but you can't get the flow out of those cast iron heads that you would need to make that kind of horsepower. Your cam selection is all wrong also. You don't want that short of duration with that lift. First of all those heads don't work at those lift figures. No matter how much porting you do and you would need EXTENSIVE port reconfiguration and you still won't get there. The 1.88 exhaust valve will kill the exhaust flow and that is the only good part of these heads.


Listen to what the others here with experience are telling you. You're wasting your friends money and he's trusting you to help him. You will come off looking like a fool and/or Mopar will be crap.

Take a look at what Mopar Performance recomends in their bracket tips to get where you want to be and adjust accordingly. It will cost less and perform better with less.

As for the intake you selected. Laughable at best for your intended performance range. The 440 will make a ton of torque, do not try to help it along, it's like the Ragu, "It's in there." You can't hurt its torque manufacturing capacity, unless you plop some Indy -6's or the big B1's. But then you would be able to use that cam lift and a dual plane.

If you must learn this lesson on your own then go ahead by all means. Just remember it wasn't the car or the manufacturer that caused the performance deficiency! It was you.


Peace.

[rumblefish360]

Skip the M-1 dual plane. Stick with the RPM.

[Lee Pritchard]

skankweirdall how is old Joe at Crane doing ?? He still have the dart ???? If you talk to him tell him Lee in st pete said hi .....

[ehostler]

A dual plane intake is good for a mostly street car that will see some 1/4 mile runs. A single plane intake is best for a strip car that will see some street time.

I ran a Torker on a 383. As the 383 already produced alot of low end torque, it really didn't hurt me in bottom end power. It did give a good boost to the top end power.

For your heads, youe either want some really good 906 or 452 heads. They will flow better than the old 915 design. If you are willing to go after market heads, the EB heads are pretty good. The Indy heads would probably be more suited to the application.

[skankweirdall]

Lee, you nailed that one. LOL! Don't get me wrong, I like the guy but his car should be alot quicker than it is. Next time I see him I'll pass that on.

[70RoadRunner440]

I realise that they're are a lot of self proclaimed experts as you claim. Itsa true.
I'll look into the 906's, Ehostler.
The lift was just an estimate, i dont have a specific cam in mind yet, but something about that size (duration wise).

I disagree completely about the 440's torque making capabilities, while it is a torquey motor, everything you do against that (big intake, big ports, big cam, big exhuast) will kill its torque.
Getting out of the hole is the most important part, IMO.

Well at the moment i'm done of debating the engine plans, until after i do some more research, i'd perfer to ask about more specific questions in the future.
I do appreciate the advice, but i have a feeling that you guys dont understand my specific goals. Not meant to be offensive if anyone takes it as that.

[skankweirdall]

No offense intended or taken here. Just that my experience with the 440 tells me you aren't going to hurt it. You can run that 2 inch header on it also. Don't be afraid of the single plane Mopar M1 or the Stage 6 heads either. And by all means a 1050 Dominator is pheasable as well. It will still provide enough torque to fry a set of tires that can be fitted inside a stock wheel well.

Mind you if you are planning on squeezing this concoction then I'll defer to someone else. I don't do the giggle gas. I beleive in making horsepower the old fashioned way. With airflow!


By the way, I don't like hood scoops either.


Peace.

[ehostler]

The blue bottle is for people that have no idea how to get power out of their engines.

As far as hood scoops go... Well, it depends on the type of scoop that you are talking about. I have a dual scoop RamCharger hood for my '69 Coronet 500 Convertible. It is an original hood that came off of a Coronet R/T or a SuperBee. Those look alot better than any flat hood ever dreamed.