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  #1  
Old 10-04-2002, 07:27 PM
dacuda dacuda is offline
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Default Help! I Have No Pressure!

I HAVE A BRAND NEW 440 THAT I FINALLY KICKED OVER TONIGHT AND I HAVE NO OIL PRESSURE.THIS MOTOR HAS BEEN ALREADY BROKEN IN AND DYNOED BEFORE IT LEFT HUGHES.I RAN IT TWICE FOR ABOUT 10 SECONDS EACH AND NO PRESSURE.I REMOVED THE FILTER AND NO OIL IN IT.IM CONFUSED .IT HAS 6 QUARTS IN THE PAN.IS MY PUMP SHOT OR DOES IT TAKE LONGER FOR THE OIL TO CIRCULATE AND REACH THE FILTER AND MY PRESSURE GAUGE.I ALSO HAVE AN EXTERNAL OIL COOLER SETUP,COULD THIS NOT BE HELPING?THIS MOTOR HAS BEEN BUILT AND SITTING AND AWITING INSTALL FOR 8 MONTHS.DID THE PUMP FREEZE?I CRANKED THE MOTOR FOR A FEW SECS TO BUILD UP A LITTLE PRESSURE BEFORE I ADDED FUEL BUT HUGHES SAID THAT SINCE ITS BROKE IN I DIDNT NEED TO DO ALL THE USUAL STUFF FOR A NEW MOTOR.IT SHOULD BE JUST LIKE TAKIN IT OUT OF STORAGE AFTER A LONG WINTER.I DONT WANT TO CAUSE ANY HARM TO MY NEW MOTOR .DOES ANYONE HAVE AN ANSWER.?I DONT WANT TO WAIT TILL MONDAY TO CALL HUGHES.THANKS
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2002, 07:43 PM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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Caps is yelling, stop yelling, my ears hurt.

Did you see an oil pump and pick up? A quick check of all things should be done prier to installing the engine.
The external oil cooler should not present a problem.
And it should only take like less than 3 seconds for the oil to reach the mech. oil gage.
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2002, 07:56 PM
dacuda dacuda is offline
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THE MOTOR WAS COMPLETE WHEN I RECIEVED IT.SO I ASSUME THAT ALL WAS GOOD DURING THE BREAK IN AND DYNO TUNE.BUT I THINK THAT THAT IS A NO BRAINER AND NOT A CONSIDERATION.IF THERE IS NO PRESSURE ON START UP IS IT SAFE TO SAY THAT THE PUMP IS SHOT.

P.S. I LIKE THE CAPS AND I THINK I DESERVE TO YELL IF I PAID $10K FOR A MOTOR WITH A BAD PUMP
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2002, 08:06 PM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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Quote:
P.S. I LIKE THE CAPS AND I THINK I DESERVE TO YELL IF I PAID $10K FOR A MOTOR WITH A BAD PUMP
Sure, I'd be pissed as well. But why yell at me? You like caps because.....I'm not taking it personal anyway. No harm done.

Seriously, the problem word is assume. It should be perfect when recieved by the people/company doing the work. But there human. So, things will happen that should NEVER happen.
A grand check is what shouyld be next for this power plant.

Pump shot? Maybe. What about not getting a pick up? How about and obstuction thats stronger than the pump can suck up?
Block oil passage?

I'll leave this thread alone seeing how I'm not a big block guy. The problem is for the forum to help you with.
Later.
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2002, 08:43 PM
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Buddy Branon Buddy Branon is offline
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Mark,

I have seen the oil pump drive shaft break right at the pump on big blocks. One thing you can do to check it is to remove your distributor cap, mark the rotor position, and remove the dist. Note the position and or mark the cam drive gear on the oil pump drive shaft. Then take a long screw driver, insert in into the dist drive gear slot and reverse rotate the gear/shaft and it will pop up about and inch. You can then sometimes with a good magnet or a thin strong piece of wire, pull the gear/shaft up and out of the engine.
Now you can inspect the bottom end of the shaft, It should have an octagon shaped drive end on it. If not, you have found part of the problem. You will probably have to remove the oil pump to get the broken piece out. You can at that time check out the pump.
If the shaft is not broken. I would then insert a priming shaft in the dist hole and spin the pump with a power drill. ( Remember the 440 turns counter clockwise). BTW, you can make a cheap primer shaft by grinding or machining the drive teeth off an old gear/ shaft.
If turning with the drill does not work you will have to dig further.
Others may have better ideas. This is one place to start. Anyway, hope this will hep you some.


Good Luck, Buddy
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2002, 08:45 PM
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I would try to prime the engine before starting it again! This will tell you that every thing is workin good. You could make one out of a old intermedate shaft or buy one think there like under $10 FOR SURE! You should be able to see the pressure come up on the gauge while priming it!

Bob
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2002, 09:04 PM
dacuda dacuda is offline
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THANKS FOR THE REPLIES.I HAVE A PRIMEING SHAFT BUT DIDNT WANT TO HAVE TO TAKE THE DISTRIBUTOR OUT AGAIN AFTER SETTING IT.AND WAS TOLD IT WASNT NEEDED.I WOULD THINK THAT IF THE MOTOR HAS ALREADY BEEN RUN AND BROKE IN,HOW COULD THE OIL PUMP SHAFT BE BROKEN?COULD IT HAVE BROKEN DURING THE DYNO PULLS? WOULDNT THAT HAVE BEEN NOTICED CUZ THE LOW OIL PRESSURE WOULD HAVE SHUT IT DOWN. I KNOW THEY CAN BREAK BUT ISNT THAT HIGHLY UNLIKELY?THIS MOTOR ONLY MAKES 600HP.WHAT ABOUT THE LACK OF OIL IN MY FILTER ? ISNT THAT WEIRD? BUT IF THE PUMP ISNT PUMPING THEN THAT EXPLAINS IT.SO IF ITS NOT A BROKEN SHAFT WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?.IM SURE THERE IS A PICK UP IN THERE AND IT COULDNT BE OBSTRUCTED.I KNOW THINGS CAN HAPPEN BUT THESE THINGS WOULD HAVE SURFACED DURING THE INITIAL START UP AND DYNO TEST.IM REALLY PISSED CUZ IVE BEEN DOIN THIS JUST RIGHT AND EVERYTHING IS PERFECT AND READY TO DRIVE AND THE THOUGHT OF HAVING INTERNAL PROBLEMS MAKES ME WANNA PUKE!
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2002, 09:35 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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Use the priming shaft, you need to run the drill in reverse.
When you remove the oil pump drive, make sure the hex end is not broken, AND the gear is not spinning on the shaft. You did not mention if you have a roller cam and the bronze gear drive?

If all that checks out, and you still do not have oil pressure, or oil to the filter, then I would think the pickup may be cracked and sucking air! I think it would take a major problem with the pump not to pump oil to the filter. I think even if the pumps by-pass is stuck open, you should still get some oil to the filter.

The only other possability is the oil pan got smashed a bit and is right up on the pickup, and the pump is just sucking the pickup to the bottom of the pan?
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2002, 09:59 PM
dacuda dacuda is offline
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451 MOPAR,

HOW MUCH CLEARANCE DOES A PICKUP HAVE OFF THE BOTTOM OF THE PAN?ARE WE TALKIN AN 1/8" OR A 1/2". MY PAN ISNT DENTED CUZ ITS NEW BUT IF THE MOTOR WAS SET DOWN ON THE PAN WOULD THE WEIGHT OF THE MOTOR CAUSE ENUFF DEFLECTION ON THE PAN TO PUSH IT AGAINST THE PICKUP.WHEN SETTING A MOTOR ON THE MOUNTS SOMETIMES I SET A BLOCK OF WOOD UNDER THE PAN TO JACK THE MOTOR A HAIR TO EITHER SIDE.IVE HAD PLENTY OF MOTORS WITH DENTED PANS THAT NEVER CAUSED ANY PROBS BUT I DONT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE CLEARANCE MAY BE FOR THE PICKUP.
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  #10  
Old 10-04-2002, 10:47 PM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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Exclamation Please don't shout!

If you use all cap's, you have less expression. If you need CAP'S for one high-light for expression, then you have them.
If you have a problem with an engine that you bought from ANYONE, you should first call them about ANY problem. Don't cuss the doctor if you don't keep him informed of your problems. If you pull the coil wire and can't get oil through the engine, I would first talk to the person who built it.
If you have to pull the distributer, mark the dist. position on the dist. and intake, then you can replace it in the correct position. If you can't get oil pressure, don't keep running the engine. You should be able to get pressure from cranking. If you can't get pressure, call the builder and get first hand information and go from there. You paid a lot of money for the engine and if you don't approach it correctly, your builder can just turn up his nose.

Just thinking out loud.
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  #11  
Old 10-04-2002, 11:07 PM
delbert delbert is offline
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You may have just lost the prime on your pump after sitting so long. I know it's not a Mopar, but I recently changed the oil in my 430 Buick, which has an external, forward-mounted pump like the BB Mopar, and when I fired it back up there was zero oil pressure. I pulled the filter off and it was bone dry inside. Like you, I had 6 quarts of new oil in the pan but it wasn't going anywhere. What I did was remove the oil pump cover, pack the rotors FULL of Vaseline, and button it back up. It built pressure within about 1 second after I fired it up, and was fine ever since.

Hughes (or you) probably changed the oil and filter immediately after the dyno runs without firing it up immediately to circulate oil through the filter. After sitting so long with a dry filter, the pump could've went dry too.

If you've verified your dist shaft is in one piece, I'd try to regain prime on the pump before you go tearing into anything else.

Good luck.
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  #12  
Old 10-05-2002, 12:49 AM
Mopar_Maniac Mopar_Maniac is offline
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dacuda...

I set my oil pump pickup tube between 1/4"-3/8" off the bottom of the pan.

DO NOT START YOUR ENGINE UNTIL YOU HAVE OIL PRESSURE!

Check the oil pump shaft as others have said. Hook up an oil pressure gauge (mechanical) directly to one of the two ports at the top rear area of the block. If you don't have access to a priming tool stop at a hardware store and pick up a piece of 5/16" hex stock...about 2' long. Be sure to wrap some tape on the shaft where it passes the bushing in the block. Chuck the hex stock into a 1/2" drill and set it to spin counter-clock-wise. Turn the drill on and be carefull---when it picks up oil it may try to kick back on you. Watch the gauge for oil pressure. When you get pressure at the gauge you want to rotate the engine (clockwise) slowly (while still turning oil pump) at least 2 complete revolutions to make sure oil gets to all areas of the engine.

Or............wait till Monday and call the engine builder.

Good luck,
Mopar_Maniac
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  #13  
Old 10-05-2002, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dacuda
THANKS FOR THE REPLIES.I HAVE A PRIMEING SHAFT BUT DIDNT WANT TO HAVE TO TAKE THE DISTRIBUTOR OUT AGAIN AFTER SETTING IT.AND WAS TOLD IT WASNT NEEDED.I WOULD THINK THAT IF THE MOTOR HAS ALREADY BEEN RUN AND BROKE IN,HOW COULD THE OIL PUMP SHAFT BE BROKEN?COULD IT HAVE BROKEN DURING THE DYNO PULLS? WOULDNT THAT HAVE BEEN NOTICED CUZ THE LOW OIL PRESSURE WOULD HAVE SHUT IT DOWN. I KNOW THEY CAN BREAK BUT ISNT THAT HIGHLY UNLIKELY?THIS MOTOR ONLY MAKES 600HP.WHAT ABOUT THE LACK OF OIL IN MY FILTER ? ISNT THAT WEIRD? BUT IF THE PUMP ISNT PUMPING THEN THAT EXPLAINS IT.SO IF ITS NOT A BROKEN SHAFT WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?.IM SURE THERE IS A PICK UP IN THERE AND IT COULDNT BE OBSTRUCTED.I KNOW THINGS CAN HAPPEN BUT THESE THINGS WOULD HAVE SURFACED DURING THE INITIAL START UP AND DYNO TEST.IM REALLY PISSED CUZ IVE BEEN DOIN THIS JUST RIGHT AND EVERYTHING IS PERFECT AND READY TO DRIVE AND THE THOUGHT OF HAVING INTERNAL PROBLEMS MAKES ME WANNA PUKE!
I broke one in a new engine with just 7 miles on it. It could have broke during shut down or when you started cranking on it once you installed it. Make sure you use the mopar piece with the hardened tip even if you don't use the hi vol. press. pump. Why even take the chance even on a stoker.
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  #14  
Old 10-05-2002, 12:19 PM
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cuda66273 cuda66273 is offline
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.....well, did it prime?

I'm gonna follow this one
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  #15  
Old 10-05-2002, 12:37 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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On the pickup distance, alot depends on what pickup you have.
The stock pickup has a cover on it that keeps the pickup off the botton of the pan.
My Milodon 1/2" pickup has a small loop of metal (about 3/8" I think) to make sure the pickup has some clearance.

Was this engine converted to 1/2 oil pickup?
My Muscle Motors short block and a friends both had this modification, but the 1/2" NPT tap for the puckup must be small or not taped in very far because we both had problems screwing in the oil pickups more than a thred or two. My friend actually just welded the pickup on (Not my choice.) I went and bought a new 1/2" NPT tap and re-taped the block.
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  #16  
Old 10-05-2002, 01:00 PM
dacuda dacuda is offline
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I GOT PRESSURE!

I TOOK OUT THE DISTRIBUTOR AND USED THE PRIMEING SHAFT AND FINALLY GOT THE GAUGE TO READ SOME PRESSURE.I PUT IT ALL BACK TOGETHER AND IT FIRED RIGHT UP .HURRAY!!!! THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE WITH THE TROUBLESHOOTING.
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  #17  
Old 10-05-2002, 01:41 PM
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So now you can stop yelling
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  #18  
Old 10-05-2002, 03:22 PM
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I so love a happy ending!
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  #19  
Old 10-05-2002, 06:45 PM
dacuda dacuda is offline
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IM HAPPY IT RUNS BUT NOW I HAVE TO FIX ALL THE LEAKS! I NEED A NEW STEERING BOX AND DONT WANT TO SHELL OUT $300 FOR A FIRM FEEL BUT I MIGHT HAVE TO .NO SENSE WORRYING ABOUT MONEY NOW, I PRACTICALLY TOOK A SECOND MORTGAGE ON THIS TIME AROUND.THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE SUPPORT AND HELP
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  #20  
Old 10-05-2002, 08:29 PM
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Buddy Branon Buddy Branon is offline
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Biggrin

Bitch, Bitch, Bitch................. Just teasing.....BB
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  #21  
Old 10-05-2002, 11:42 PM
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...you didn't order the "No Leak Option #r231-d"!!!!!!!!

Oh my Gawd!......better get a 50# bag of kitty litter...
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2002, 12:31 AM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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Now if Id10-T can stop yelling.
Ge whiz, it only took a few days of bitchin
Should have made one call
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