440 Perfomance questions...

[Eternalfootman]

Okay, being a newbie and all, I have some questions that you may or may not be able to answer.

(I love learning new things, but going from turboed 4 cylinder engines to classic V8's is like walking into a new world!!!)

And before I ask, I'll just preface this by saying that I have ordered several book, including Herd's Resto Guide, but they are not here yet, and I would like some info soon, if possible.

I have seen several 440 blocks for sale (ebay, etc.), some short-blocks, some long.

I was wondering a couple of things:

A) Since my '70 'Cuda is an original 318, and I am planning on replacing the engine, would a correct year (1970) 440 be more valuable than a 440 from say, '71 or '76?

B) If I were to purchase an already started project engine from someone, what aftermarket pistons/rods does everyone like? JE seem to be very popular, and I am familiar with them, since I am also from the import crowd originally. Is their reputation as good among domestics?

c) Does anyone have the original geometry for a 440 engine? Stroke and rod length is what I am most interested in. Bore size is easy to find on the 'net.

D) Lastly, What are your favorite cams? And this is where I get weak in my knowledge.

In fact let's just add all of this up and say this, too - I would like to build a 440 that may not have the total horsepower that some have, but can pull all the way up through higher rpms (6000 -7000). What would you all suggest I need?

Thanks!!!

Dave

[ajmopar]

since your car is not an original 440 car, I wouldn't worry about number matching, it won't make it any more valuable.
The stock 440 rods are good for most performance applications, and depending on you wants and needs, Kieth Black pistons for mild apps, arias, ross etc. for forged pistons for higher output engines.
You really want to rev an engine that big, that high? Usually with a street big block you keep the revs low and use the torque. You can build a 440 to rev like that, but you're into high dollar heads, and to what end? As for the cam, you need to figure out the rest of your combination, right down to converter and gearing and then call Racer Brown and let the experience of a lot of years of ginding cams for mopars work for you. You need to decide if it is a daily driver, street strip car, more strip than street car or full race car and build accordingly.
A stock 440 is 4.32" bore x 3.75 stroke rod length 6.765"

[ehostler]

4.32" bore X 3.75" stroke 6.768" rod length

Your best cam will be a Racer Brown cam. You tell him what you've got and what you are trying to do, and he will get you the correct cam.

Arias, Ross and KB are all good for pistons.

I must say taht I don't understand why you would want a 440 to rev up into the 6000 - 7000 RPM range. Why not tell us what you plan on doing with the car (street, street/strip, or strip - approx 1/4 times) and then we can point you to the best setup without reving the engine into the O-zone.

[Dart]

A few answers for you:

1. I wouldn't necessarily worry about getting the same year 440 as your Cuda. The thing you need to worry about is how much power you are planning on building up and if you want a cast crank 440 or a forged crank. The 440 went from forged to cast around late '72 early '73. You can tell the difference by the size of the balancer. The '73 on up has lower compression (8 to 1) vs. 10 to 1, but that may all be moot depending on the pistons you will used or what was used in the rebuild.

2. I am not sure you need aftermarket rods and thins, again depends on how much power you want to make. The stok rods are good for 450+ hp.

4. Someone els will answer this as I don't have my book handy...

5. Cam is dependent on a lot of things. First of all you need to know your actual compression. To do that you need to know your heads chamber CC volume, your piston relief CC and the gasket thickness to get an accurate calculation. I personally like the Mopar Performace cams, but a lot of people do not. Some of this is personal preference and for me it has a lot to do with price. I cam get an MP cam for $129... I like the 509/292 and the 484/284.

[Eternalfootman]

Well, I want to rev the engine high because its more my style, and I want a longer, more "usable" (for daily driving) power band.

I just love the feel and sound of any engine above 5500, basically.

Now, I am very new to this big block stuff, and maybe my way of thinking is wrong. Maybe a 6000 rpm redline is too much for the engine. Or, more likely, it isn't going to change anything as far as the drivability of the car.

And that goal (600 rpm big block) is very negotiable for me too. Its not like it was a power goal, more just a goal of how I want the engine to feel and drive.

Anyway, I noticed that no one mentioned JE pistons. So they are not that good, then? The reason why I ask is that there is an engine that I saw on ebay that has JE's in it, and I'm curious as to how good those are considered to be.

Thanks for all of the other information, though...


Dave

[lenweiler]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eternalfootman
[B]Well, I want to rev the engine high because its more my style, and I want a longer, more "usable" (for daily driving) power band.

I just love the feel and sound of any engine above 5500, basically.

Now, I am very new to this big block stuff, and maybe my way of thinking is wrong. Maybe a 6000 rpm redline is too much for the engine. Or, more likely, it isn't going to change anything as far as the drivability of the car.

And that goal (600 rpm big block) is very negotiable for me too. Its not like it was a power goal, more just a goal of how I want the engine to feel and drive.

Anyway, I noticed that no one mentioned JE pistons. So they are not that good, then? The reason why I ask is that there is an engine that I saw on ebay that has JE's in it, and I'm curious as to how good those are considered to be.

Thanks for all of the other information, though...

I hope you're thinking of a knockout oiling mod.

[72Challenger]

I think you'll find that as you build this engine for higher and higher RPMs that the powerband becomes narrower, not wider. Remember also that an 8 cylinder engine will have as many power strokes at 5,000 RPM as one of the 4 cylinders you're used to will have at 10,000 RPM. How often did you wind up your toy motor to 10 grand?

I'm not trying to make fun of you or criticize, please don't misunderstand. It's just that the biggest advantage of a big block V8 is that it makes huge amounts of torque compared to what you're used to. This will translate into more usable HP at the speeds you will driving at on the street, while still staying at a "reasonable" redline. My truck has a 440, and while the rev limiter is set for 6,000 RPM, I'm afraid to take it there! That's okay, I don't need to. At 5,000, it's screaming. And it can take off just as fast from the line as any import I've encountered yet. Not bad for 5,000 pounds!

As for cams, go to the Hughes Engines website. They have charts showing the RPM ranges for the different grinds along with the compression required to run them. They sell cams made for Chrysler engines and you can call them and get help choosing the right one for you.

[dave571]

Toy motor to 10000 rpm. That's funny


The point about the longer usuable range. The problem is that, that's not how it works. To build an Rb engine to pull that high, you loose a LOT off the bottom. It will suck to drive on the street, and you'll be pissed off at the money you spend.

Build it up to 5500 or 6000 at the most, unless you going for a track car.

A B engine(361, 383,400) has a shorter stroke and will take 7000, alittle more readily. Again, it's not really streetable, but it will take a higher rpm band than a 440. Might be a consideration for you though, as they are a little cheaper then 440's as well.

If you do go with the plan to build a 7000 rpm 440, stick with a steel crank model (72 and earlier, some 73's/ split production that year) All 383's are steel crank. By steel I mean forged steel, as opposed to cast iron.

[6 packin]

You have come to the right place! Seening you have been around rice burners a while I will give a good opinion on your thoughts! No need to turn a big Block more than 6000 rpm's! A strret engine does not need to rev like that! The 4 bangers your use too are very small and light! Fact is that the crank and rotating assembly alone is heavyer than about any complete 4 banger. Thats alot of weight spinning around! Alot of people tend to over gear a big block too! 3.55 is all you need! The 440 is the torque monster of all big blocks! Including brand x also! Let it work for you. If your stuck on high revs then small blocks are for you! They will last alot longer spinning tight. And if you havent noticed engines are very $$$$$$$ to build! As for the 440 years pre 73 were the good ones! The later blocks are just fine for a .030 build but have cast cranks witch require spiecal balancing! The all have good heads! Find a late model 440 just drop in a early steel crank and a good intake! Performer RPM is highly recomended!

[cuda66273]

You sound like a typical customer so I'll give you the typical questions I ask..
1. What is the weight of this car.
2. What would you like it to run in the 1/4 mile.. ET?
3. What drive line are you intending to use to get this power to the ground.
4. Are you restricted on tire size.
5. Do you plan on running this car on the street?

From this we derive a plan and price for the proper SAFE buildup of the project and fill you in on the reality.

Example......11.99 and quicker requires a minimum of a 8 point roll bar....9.99 and quicker requuires a full cage.

It takes 650 crank HP to move a 3800 pound car through the 1/4 mile in 11.0 seconds.

[Eternalfootman]

Originally posted by 72Challenger
I think you'll find that as you build this engine for higher and higher RPMs that the powerband becomes narrower, not wider. Remember also that an 8 cylinder engine will have as many power strokes at 5,000 RPM as one of the 4 cylinders you're used to will have at 10,000 RPM. How often did you wind up your toy motor to 10 grand?

Heheheh. Well, my toy motor winds up to a redline of 8,000 all the time, stock. And boy, is that fun in an (approx) 1800 lb. car. And I know I can take the engine there on a regular basis and it won't break. Besides, you gotta give Honda their due credit for producing the very first production engine to output over 100 hp per liter. (The now-classic b16a2 engine. 1.6L = 170 hp)

And don't think I'm giving up my ricer. I'm still in love with and keeping my '91 Honda. I'm just broadening my horizons. (I have a passion for cars - all types of them - from american Muscle to European speed machines. Mopar, Cosworth, Nissan, etc., you name it.) They may only be 4-bangers, but damn, they drive nice. (At least, the early 90's Hondas do. I hate the new ones. There all plush and... well, bubbly.) But I'm not a typical ricer. I don't have a car that is slammed all the way down to the ground. I don't have a 5 foot tall spoiler on the back of my car. I don't have 40 lb. 19" chrome rims. I don't have ground effects that make my car look like something from Star Trek. Not my style, not at all.

But anyway, that's all beside the point... you made a good point about the power strokes, though. I never even thought about that at all!!! I knew there were many mathematical reason why I wanted V8 power!

And to answer Cuda66273,

1) The cuda weighs about 3100 lbs, stock, if I remember right. With a 440 in it, I'm sure that'll go up.

2) I'm not sure what I want it to run in the 1/4. I want as fun a car for a nice sunday afternoon as I can get without having to do a roll cage, etc. So lets say a 12-sec car would be great!

3) As far as drive systems go, I'm not sure. I was figuring I would stay stock with a 727, or else go to an aftermarket manufacturer. I like the idea of having a 5-speed...

4) No real restriction on tire size, but something not too extreme...

5) Yes, this car is going to be primarily a street car.

Basically, I want to conform the engine to find the correct cams, compression, etc. to make the car as powerful a street machine without sacrificing too much drivability. I can handle a rough idle, but not too rough. I know that isn't very specific, but its the best I can give you all as of now... I also want to go for a suspension set up that will make the car handle as good as it possiobly can....

I want to find this place in the middle, where the car handles well around curves, but still makes a decent amount of power. And I realize that will effect everything from the torsion bars to the cams.

Which is why I am here, asking, I guess...

Thanks!!

Dave

[ajmopar]

Wow, my duster weighed 3,200 lbs stock (especially after I dug all the bondo out of the 1/4's) and historically the wider E body was heavier, especially with a big block. I'd say more like 3,600 lbs for the weight on that unit.
Just sayin...
If you want it to handle like a Honda, you may want to consider small block power for better weight balance. Then you could build a 340 and rev it to the moon, just for the sound.

[cuda66273]

1. Put it on the scale ...my stripped out bare bones little Early A body wieghs 3220 with me in it and about 2970 without my big butt...I'd guess in full trim AJ's probably closer...but I'd guess 3600 with a BB at least.... but that's niether here nor there.
2. 12 second street car with a 440 is a piece of cake.
3. Stay with the 727 you'll spend Boo Cooze of $$$ on a 5 speed to hold the tork of a 12 second big block...unless you have more money than the Catholic Church and it that case go get a Lenco.
4. The restriction on tire size will come from the configuration of your rear wheel tubs.
5. Street car on pump gas....no problem here's what you do.

Heads: 906's or 452's and gasket match, bull hog, good 4 angle valve job, REV stainless valves, Comp steel adjustable rocker arms and chrome hardened shafts.

Pistons: I prefer the Arias, they make a nice street piston pretty inexpensive and if you want to put it on drugs later you'll be good to go. Set the compression at 9.5 or 9.8 to 1.

Rods: stock 440 rods are good to 5800-6000 easy with GOOD ARP bolts

Cam: Let Racer Brown grind you a nice solid lifter bump stick.

Induction: Performer dual plane with a 750 Speed Demon BG HR220 Pump and BG 5000 filter -08 from the pump to the filter and -06 to the carb.

Ignition: MSD or HI-6 Crane, curve the distributor and phase it.

Power to ground: Dynamic convertor, Denny's driveline, 8.75 rear end with 3.91 or 4.10 gear and a sure grip.

Suspension: Move the springs in 3", use the SS springs, cut the clamps off the back and clamp the front solid, minimum 10" tire and about 30" tall, 90/10 shocks on the front and some good strong ones on the rear.

You'll soon learn that there is nothing like the sound and feel of a BB Mopar pinning your ass back in seat and trying to pick the front wheels off the ground.

You'll be giving away that Honda....LOL

There's the basics for starters....I'm sure you'll get a couple of thousand suggestions...

[72Challenger]

Well, here I go again, rocking the boat... Cuda, you always have good advise, so I hate to disagree with you. But this time I have too.

Please note what his goals are:

"I also want to go for a suspension set up that will make the car handle as good as it possiobly can"

So why are you recommending a drag racing suspension? I know that's your specialty, but his goals are closer to mine, and I'm using XHD rear springs, the SS springs will jack up the rear a bit too much for good cornering. You're right of course about the offset spring hangers. And 90/10 shocks? Only on the strip! You know that...

Eternalfootman, looking at your last post, I have to agree with ajmopar about the small block. While I love the 440 in my truck for raw power, it's way too heavy to handle or stop very well. The big block makes that worse, but a small block wouldn't help much in that department anyway for a truck that big, and I wouldn't be happy with the loss of low end torque. But in my Challenger (which by the way is an E body just like your Cuda) I went with the small block. It's over 100 lbs. lighter, directly over the front wheels. That will make a huge difference in handling. It is possible to go 12's with a small block, not as easily as with the big block naturally, but for a well-balanced car the small block is more suitable. My own opinion of course, others will disagree.

[73_RoadRunner]

Originally posted by dave571
Toy motor to 10000 rpm. That's funny


The point about the longer usuable range. The problem is that, that's not how it works. To build an Rb engine to pull that high, you loose a LOT off the bottom. It will suck to drive on the street, and you'll be pissed off at the money you spend.

Build it up to 5500 or 6000 at the most, unless you going for a track car.

A B engine(361, 383,400) has a shorter stroke and will take 7000, alittle more readily. Again, it's not really streetable, but it will take a higher rpm band than a 440. Might be a consideration for you though, as they are a little cheaper then 440's as well.

If you do go with the plan to build a 7000 rpm 440, stick with a steel crank model (72 and earlier, some 73's/ split production that year) All 383's are steel crank. By steel I mean forged steel, as opposed to cast iron.

would my 68 RR 440 be a forged steel crank or cast? what hp is it good to?

[Eric Strong]

It sounds like you are about to be baptized in fire! I have been a big block Mopar man from day one. Unlike some, I have no problem with heavy cars handling really well. Fill them wheel wells with rubber and add a rear sway bar and you will be suprised at how these cars handle. I got a great honda prelude vs. Chrysler Cordoba story for you, if you want to hear it, but lets get to your questions first. A 440 can be made to take the high R.P.M. if you want it to, but it comes at a price. Like many others have already mentioned, 440s are famous for their torque. I own a 68 Chrysler 300 with 440 of course. These engines left the assembly line with 375 H.P. and 480 lb. ft. torque, so you can see it has potential. The problem with reving any engine into the stratosphere is reciprocating weight. Strong, light weight parts rev higher without breaking, but of course they cost a lot more or we all would be using them. You can pay a lot for a 7000 R.P.M. engine that makes over 700 H.P. or about half as much for a 5500 R.P.M. engine that makes 450+ H.P. and 500+ lb. torque. With a mild cam a 440 can put out over 500 lb. ft. of torque at 2000 R.P.M. , and 5000 R.P.M. behind a 440 can put you in the 140+ m.p.h. zone!!!!!!!!

Quick Claims Adjuster!!!

[dave571]

73 roadrunner

Your 68 440 is definately a steel crank(unless someone screwed with it)

Eternalfootman.

Honda's eh? I apprenticed at honda in the early 90's. Honda's are my second choice after mopars. I always wanted about a 90 twin cam prelude. I always liked the early twin cam car's more than the V-tech ones. Better low end feel. Smooth as glass on the accell, and handles like an old mopar can only dream of. I've made mopar's handle, with Sway bar upgrades.ect. , but it's just not the same.

Which I think is the point I'm about to make. A honda handles like a sports car. In fact it is a sports car. Smooth and gracefull in every aspect. Fast, and tight in the corners. Driving art.

A Big block muscle car is more like a Bitch Slap. It stuff's you in your seat, while the frt end lifts up, your ears ring with exhaust rumble, the torque pulls the car from side to side. Although imports can be made to be as fast(or even faster) it's just not the same.

I built a 69 dart(340) to corner, way lighter car than a cuda, and it did corner well. I made similar modifications to my dad's big block cuda, and was still like cornering a snow plow( a fast snowplow though ) Small block cuda's handle much better. and make good power. lots of guy's here run 12's with 360's, or you could even built a small block stroker engine(408 cid I think) with an aftermarket crank.

You need to decide weather you want the Bitch slap of the big block car(like cuda 66273 said 12's no problem), or build some sort of small block handler(much easier to do with the weight distribution of the SB car) which can be as fast, with a lot more work.

Both would be great to drive, but have totally different feels.

[cuda66273]

68 RR crank...forged and good to 700Hp at least

Suspension? I thought 1320 feet straight ahead was a race track?

Wasn't he taking about drag racing....jeeze i thought everyone was a drag racer....I had no idea that he actually wanted to turn a corner once in awhile???

When I skimmed the post I saw.. E body... Big Block and big RPM I guess I ass-umed that it was in a straight line.

Keep correcting me I get out of line sometimes and need to be slapped just to get my attention....

[Magnum440]

Yah, 68s are all forged,,should be good to 600-700+ hp depending on prep.

On the 6000-7000 reving 440, I understand what you are wanting and I think you can have it. I'm running the Hughes Max Velocity solid HEV5056.Its power range tops out about 6200 rpm. The cam is very streetable with good lope to it but will idle about 900 rpm. My engine gets real fun AFTER 5500 rpm! Yes,this type of motor tends to be a liitle "peaky"as all the power comes in after 5000 rpm--but, hang on dude! On the street it is very mild mannered.I run a 3500 coan conv. JW Reverse man. 727. My pistons are Ross,(10 to 1) But JE are just as good if not better! My Challenger runs low 12s with out being able to hook. With traction it will run mid 11s. I would highly reccomend this cam for your stated goals.It will be alot of fun to run thru the gears with..with some flowmasters, you will LOVE the sound!!

Good luck with your Big Block Cuda!

[Eternalfootman]

3600 lbs, eh? Hmmm... I remember reading that Cudas were about 3100 cars. Maybe I'm mistaken. Well, I bought a Cuda for style points almost as much as I did for speed. So if its not the most agile car out there, thats okay. I LOVE the way they look. But I would like to make it as agile as I can...

Okay, now here a thought or two to mix things up...

What if I were to go with a small block, say a 340 or a 360, with a little lower compression, and then do a single or twin turbo set-up?

If this were a PMFI setup, I would know exactly how: Increase the injector size, aftermarket fuel pump, standalone fuel management system, and a lot of tuning... But how do you do F/I with carbs? Can't detonate this engine...

How well would it work if I allowed the engine to make its torque at the lower end, and then allowed the turbo(s) to spool up towards the higher end and continue making power later on in the RPMs? That could be fun...


On a seperate note:

dave571 -
Yeah, I basically shoved a twin-cam engine into my 91 civic. It's not a prelude engine (they lean the wrong direction for that), but it is very close. And I agree with you... VTEC isn't all it's cracked up to be. I purposefully purchased a non-vtec angine, and boy, it still hauls. And I was going to turbo it, but decided I should stop sinking money into a car that really isn't worth anything, insurance-wise. You know what I mean? Plus, I wanted to learn more, and step into a new world.

And I have also become rather dissapointed with the import scene lately. It used to be older guys (I'm not that old, but I'm getting towards 30) who were being clever and figuring out ways to make these econo-boxes (with good suspension geometry) really fast. I know a guy who is about to break into the 12's with a 1.5L engine and Nitrous. Oh, and with no turbo!!!

Now THAT is impressive engineering.

But these high school kids (and I am a high school teacher, so I see 'em every day) with their spoilers that really belong on a Cessna, and rims that make them slower, not faster, (not to mention the 600 lbs of stereo equipment - cause we all know that the bass wavelengths can actually make the car hover and therefore reduce the friction of the cars underside from scraping along the street... ) have really pissed me off. There's no ingenuity in the scene anymore, with a few exceptions. (Like the guy with the 1.5L drag monster!) All the aftermarket stuff that is out there just makes these cars look crazy stupid, and all they are is loud and not fast.

Which reminds me, I saw a Honda on the highway yesterday with a fake "shaker" hood on it. I almost died laughing! (No, I mean it, I almost died - I was laughing so hard I almost drifted into the lane next to me!!) Wish I had gotten a picture of it to post on ricecop.com...

Anyway, thanks for all of the help, everyone. I really like this forum, you guys haven't blasted me for my simple and sometimes silly questions, and have readily shared your knowledge with me. And being a teacher, I can really appreciate that willingness and graciousness

Thanks for all the info, and keep it coming!!! (Just think of me as a sponge...)

Dave

[Magnum440]

Have you seen a Cuda AAR or Challenger T/A? Maybe you'd lke to do a "clone" of an AAR. Smallblock(340) and handle great. They also look WAY cool! You can get most of the stuff from Year One to turn your Cuda into an AAR.

Theres nothing wrong with a smallblock and they are screamers and a ton of fun! Good luck on your Project Cuda!

[dkn1997]

I am with ajmopar, build a small block for the car. You can rev to the moon and will be better handling.

You can build a 400 hp 360 almost by accident these days and have more torque than two rice burner motors. Also, I have to think that you could build a 360 for much less than a 440. At the very least, you will certianly pay much less for a core motor.

Added bonus is that you might be able to keep your accessory brackets, etc.

[dave571]

AAR clone.

I was gonna suggest that, but only mopar guy's know the difference.

Cool, but no extra style points with most people.