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  #1  
Old 10-27-2002, 01:26 AM
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Default A sick 440...

I have a question regarding my 440 engine, which is slightly above stock: The engine has about 5,000 miles on a total overhaul and I am not satisfied with the performance. I have to blend 110-octane race gas with 93-octane pump gas (a 50/50 blend) to get the engine to run well. I was hoping to run premium pump gas. As it is now, the engine knocks under duress (even moderate acceleration) unless I mix the fuel — or I have set the timing much lower. But then the engine hesitates slightly from the start and is robbed of power is all r.p.m. ranges. No after-market fuel additive has worked so far. The engine has a 270 Comp Cam (270 duration, a .470 lift and 110 lobe); has an Edelbrock Performer manifold and matching 750cc carb.; is bored .30 over with forged, domed 10.34:1 TRW pistons; has electronic ignition, and 2225 stall in the transmission (if that's relevant). If I hook up the vacuum advance the engine backfires when accelerated in park, and stalls/stammers when accelerating in drive. I have had advice ranging from gas/air mixture adjustments, to replacing the pistons with 9:1 flat-tops, to simply accepting the fact that the engine is so stout it needs high octane fuel. I'm about ready to pull my hair out over the matter. Any thoughts would be appreciated
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2002, 02:29 AM
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Confused

Have you tried playing with the carb jetting? Fatten it up and see if you can quiet it down. Or try advancing the cam 4 degrees. It's a poke and hope situation!! Have you checked your total mech. advance?
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2002, 03:56 AM
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How did you calculate 10.34:1 compression?
How much mechanical advance is in the distribitor (total - initial advance?)
It the intake the standard performer or the performer RPM?
What exhaust system are you running? Manifolds or headers?
What engine tempature does the engine run at?
What heads and head modifications.
Which head gaskets?

Here is what it look like from the information you supplied so far.
The Cam, converter, intake manifold are fairly well matched for an engine that has good low and mid range power from 1,500 RPM to 5,000 RPM, but if the engine truely has 10.34:1 compression and iron heads, then the compression ratio is going to be too high for pump gas (in my opinion.) You may be able to re-curve the distribitor to get more initial advance and limit total advance, but I think you may still have problems. You might be able to run thicker head gaskets to lower the compression, or even run a cooler engine thermostat. Blocking the heat crossover will also reduce intake manifold heat, and running a low restriction exhaust may help a bit too if you have the stock system.

You shouldn't have to go to 9.0:1 as I think the engine will run at 9.5:1 compression with your current cam.
You could also retard the cam timming a few degrees, but your cam is so small I think you would be better off with a larger cam.
If you want to keep the higher compression ratio, I would use a cam with at least 230+ duration @ 0.050" lift.
Another possability is installing aluminum cylinder heads. The aluminum heads run cooler so it is like reducing the compression ratio about 1 point, but this is probbably the most expensive option.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2002, 12:17 PM
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My mechanic says he based the ratio on what he remembers was an 80cc combustion chamber, that combined with the TRW pistons specifications should have totaled about 10.34:1 ratio.
The intake manifold is a Performer only. And I have Heddman headers with 2-1/2" dual exhaust.
The heads are stock iron heads with standard thickness Fel-Pro gaskets. No modifications at all.
The engine usually runs between 195-and 200-degrees during normal weather. If it's hot, it runs a bit warmer, but that's just typical.
As for the suggestion of going to a bigger cam, that sounds like the only other option, other than new pistons. I see where Comp Cam lists the next size as having a 230 duration (mine has 224 @ .050), which is probably what I'll go with — if I go that route.
I will check the total mechanical advance today and get back to this thread with specifics. I would hate to be guessing...
I feel that I simply chose too much compression for this engine and didn't understand the need for higher octane fuel when I made the decision, and now I'm having to "pay the piper."
I'll get back to this thread this evening with some more info
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2002, 01:01 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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I think the bigger cam will bleed off some cylinder pressure allowing the chamber to run cooler. Reducing engine operating tempature and air/fuel tempature will also help. If you do not drive in really cold weather, I would use the intake manifold gasket that blocks off the exhaust crossover in the intake manifold, the aluminum manifolds heat up fairly quick anyway.
If the manifold has EGR, it could also be used to reduce chamber temps.

Then just getting the tuning adjusted for the engine should get to where the engine runs good without having to use thicker head gaskets, but if your woried about it, I think Mopar makes a 0.060" thick head gasket which will also reduce the compression ratio.

As you can see there are more was to reduce engine cylinder pressures and tempatures than increase them. If the engine was too low in compression, your more limited on ways to increase it.
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2002, 07:09 PM
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Well, I did the mechanical advance timing check today with the following results: the engine idles at 800 R.P.M. and the timing was 26-degrees; it was also the 26-degrees at 1,000 R.P.M.; at 1,500 R.P.M. it read 30-degrees; at 2,000 it was 38-degrees; and finally at 2,500 R.P.M. it was 42-degree and remained that up to 4,000. I assume that meant it had peaked out. My mechanic felt that was a good "curve' and I concur.
We also checked the numbers in a service manual and found that the 440 high-performance engine, stock, came from the factory between 1968 and 1971 with compression ratios between 9.5:1 and around 10.75:1, depending on which year it was produced. So we feel there is no reason to think that the 10.34:1 ratio my engine has should have any bearing on my performance problems. Being comfortable with the timing curve and the compression ratio, that leads us to conclude there is a fuel problem, with this being our logic and my experience so far:
1.) If I set the timing to, say, 10-degrees advanced and run premium pump gas, I get the hesitation from a dead stop that I find so annoying. But no spark knock/pinging.
2.) When I advance the timing and get the spark-knock, I have to run higher octane fuel and the car runs strong. But not like I expect it to...
So we think it's time to re-jett the carburetor. I am going to try that next. Any thoughts anyone?
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2002, 07:27 PM
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26 degrees initial is WAY to much - 10 to 12 degress ought to be your starting point. As far as CR when the engine was new vs. CR now.... 102 octane gas was available out of the pump then.

Here are my suggestions:

1) get the distributor re-curved - 42 total is usually too much for a street engine.

2) get the engine compartment as cool as you can - use the crossover blocking intake gasket and a 4 hole phenolic or wood carb spacer keep the intake charge as cool as you can.

3) inside & out header coating like Jet-Hot... most of the others only coat the outside.

4) Fatten up the primary jets only, a couple of sizes.

5) Check water temp. I'd use a 180 thermostat. Make sure you're using a fan shroud, Check your radiator for gunk & clean it if it's dirty.

This is all stuff I'd do, before I started pulling the engine apart. If that stuff doesn't work, then the thick head gasket would be next, with the combustion chambers being polished while the heads are off. I'd leave the cam and/or pistons for last.

What year car/engine is it?

10.34 is way too much CR for pump gas. 9.5 is marginally too high for daily street use.
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2002, 07:33 PM
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Default quick and easy

pull a plug and do a compression check and make sure your carb butterflies are open all the way. if your cylinder pressure is greater than 170 psi than you will start experiencing detonation. this only takes a few minutes and cuts out all of this other guess work on what you may or may not have. the higher the cylinder pressure the higher the octane you will need to slow down the burn or predetonation in the cylinder.
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2002, 08:06 PM
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Default cylinder pressure...

We did the cylinder pressure check today also and it was 125 at full-throttle.
I am using a 195 thermostat and the shroud is new and effective. The radiator is new also...
I have wrapped headers, to deal with engine compartment heat. But I don't think the temp. is excessive. Are you saying excessive engine heat could be causing my problems?
We will try the new fatter primaries as suggested.
The car is a 71 Road Runner, but the engine core/heads are from a '73, so the heads are those specs.
Basically you feel I am going to have to get the compression down to run pump gas effectively, right?
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2002, 08:06 PM
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I have a 440 that's about the same as your's. I'm using a Comp Extreme Energy 274 cam, 230/236 duration and KB pistions. The cyl. pressure is about 170 and the heads are stock 906's. You should have about 88cc volume, not 80cc so I think you comp. ratio is lower than you have. I'm running 12 deg. at idle and 38 deg at full advance with out the vacuum advance. I run 93 pump gas with no knock. Now, this is what happened to me. I'm using a Performer RPM manifold and when I tried to use my air clearner it would hit the hood on my Cuda. So I went with a drop base cleaner. When I took the car out it ran like crap. It sounded like it was missing and had no power. It turned out that the air cleaner lid was so close to the carb air horn that it was really restricting the air flow. Once I took it off it ran great. Something this simple is easy to overlook.
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  #11  
Old 10-27-2002, 08:25 PM
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Default air flow?

I did have problems with my air-filter clearing the factory hood and had to modify the base to get the hood to shut. I have always been uncomfortable with clearance of the linkage and the air-breather base. I will definitely check that.
My cam is a Comp Cam 270 with a 224 duration; a Edelbrock Performer manifold with a matching 750cc carb.
I am going to consult with my mechanic and tell him that the specs. from the manuals are moot with today's gasoline standards.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2002, 08:42 PM
JoeGrapes JoeGrapes is offline
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I don't believe the octane is your problem. I have friends that run over 10 :1 all the time on a street car with no problems. If your running the vacuum advance and have a MP Electonic distributer, disconnect it. I can never get it to run good with it. Even if I follow the directions for the distributer and set the timming the way they say, it still runs far better without it. You may have other problems,but to much compression is not one of them. Your cyl. pressure of 125lbs. is low, but it won't cause those problems.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2002, 10:35 PM
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Default sick 440...

Yes, I am beginning to accept that my compression is not the issue. I am going to re-jett the carb., add a spacer to decrease gas vapor temperatures, and then go with a much lower timing setting — probably about 10-to 12 degrees and then see how it behaves. Thanks for the interest and advice.
Stu Barnhil
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  #14  
Old 10-28-2002, 12:05 AM
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Default a real test/

Everyone,
If all the advice I have received for my current timing/compression issues dosen't resolve my problem, is it worth the time, expense and trouble to take a non-stock 440 to a reputable repair shop to have the engine analyzed?
Considering the cost of parts and guess work I would just like to have someone test the engine and say yes, this is the problem — or is it a waste of time
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  #15  
Old 10-28-2002, 04:31 AM
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Try backing the timing off first. 42* is a hell of a lot of advance, and your curve though probably not ideal sounds pretty fair. I try to keep my temp. down a little lower than that--195* should be about as hot as it gets--ever. Normal operating temp should be around 180* for a street engine while cruising even if ambient temp is in the upper 90s. You get those things taken care of, I would bet a dollar that it will help with your detonation problem tremendously. Just do what Doug Wilson is talking about. These are the two easiest and most inexpensive of his suggested fixes and are some of the most common causes of detonation. If you are still having problems after that, do the rest of what he says, wallet permitting. Most modern garages don't have the experience or knowhow to adress drivability problems like yours on a car that is that old. Performance parts usually add to the confusion. You can do just about anything you need to yourself if you study and keep talking to people on this forum. Tuning an older car can sometimes be difficult if you don't have the know how, but you can get it without having to go to great lengths. Buy some books and inexpensive diagnostic equipment and do it yourself, and I promise you will feel a sense of accomplishment when you get what you're after--that's half of the fun!!! Stick with it-----------------deadhorse
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  #16  
Old 10-28-2002, 11:43 AM
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Default accomplishment?

Deadhorse:
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  #17  
Old 10-28-2002, 11:57 AM
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Default accomplishment?

Deadhorse:
First, I like the screen name —what's the basis for it? LOL
I am taking everyone's advise to heart, and everything here has helped, if nothing but to give me a perspective.
I'm going shopping this a.m. for a metering rod kit for the carb, a new thermostat, and a carb. spacer. I'm hoping the new rods and a cooler car will help a lot — combined especially with a lower timing setting.
I'll let you all know if I have any success. Thanks again.
Stu Barnhi
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2002, 02:43 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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With 16 degrees mechanical advance in the "curve:, set the initial at 20 degrees so you have 36 degrees total advance.
Install a 160 degree thermostat and richen up the carb jetting.
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  #19  
Old 10-28-2002, 06:05 PM
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Lightbulb Plug Wires?

I know this may sound stupid, but I would like to know what kind of spark plug wires you are running?

I dropped a fresh 440 in a 64 Dodge, upgraded to electronic ignition, and installed a set of Mopar (Taylor) solid-core spark plug wires (Along with many other new parts.) Damn thing never ran right. Missing, pinging, even overheating. It felt strong, but just never ran right, especially while cruising on the freeway. Checked valve timing (centerline) ignition timing, carb jets, octane/fuel, etc... Never found a REAL problem, but anything that was slightly suspicious, I traced down. I even suspected the pick-up coil in the electronic distributor at one point, and replaced it more than once.

So make a long story short, we sold the car many years later. About a month after the sale, the guy said all he did was replace the plug wires on the car, and said it was the best running 440 he ever drove.

After asking around, I found that a noisy set of plug wires could interfere with the Mopar electronic ignition amplifier signals from the distributor, causing all kinds of inconsistent spark performance. Like me, you may be thinking the plug wires are above suspicion, because they are new!

Make sure the plug wires are of a suppressive type and are routed away from the module. Verify you have good, solid crimps at the cap, and that the coil wire is as far away from the ECM as possible.

Even though you may not care about AM radio reception, the Mopar Ignition module does! My be worth a look...

Good Luck!
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2002, 06:34 PM
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You are really getting worthwhile advice. The plug wires never even crossed my mind!

Please let us know how it works out.
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  #21  
Old 10-28-2002, 08:31 PM
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My 440 has about the same cyl pressure as yours. My cam bleeds some off due to overlap. I run 20* initial and 36 total all in by 2000 rpm. I used to have a hesitation when I ran 12* initial. It runs alot better now with 20 initial, All I did was crank the dist to get the best idle and no hesitation and made sure I could start it with no pre igntion when cranking. Then add 16* in by 2000 by using light weight springs and limiting it by welding the slots on the shaft and carefully grinding them down with a dremel. No vaccum advance used. Since you have 16* mech already, set initial to 20 max (if thats where it runs best)and unplug the vac advance. Also my 440 loves alot of fuel when romping on it from a dead stop but I have a holley so that was a symple accelerator pump adjustment. I agree that 42* is too much advance. I think that you just have a carb problem that was masked by the fact you timing was too much. Set the timing 36 max and fix the hesitation with the carb.
Have you read any of the stickys in the begining of this forum? They are very helpfull. Even the demon ones, it explanes the igntion in one of them. And there's an edelbrock one too.
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  #22  
Old 10-29-2002, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: Plug Wires?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by timty2
[B]I know this may sound stupid, but I would like to know what kind of spark plug wires you are running?

I dropped a fresh 440 in a 64 Dodge, upgraded to electronic ignition, and installed a set of Mopar (Taylor) solid-core spark plug wires (Along with many other new parts.) Damn thing never ran right. Missing, pinging, even overheating.

This is something that I didn't bother to think of, and it is just as the man says, to put it more technically, the emf (electromagnetic field) from a solid core wire can induce voltage into any electrical system within the field (this is where the whistle that increases with eng. rpm in old am radios comes from). This will absolutely reak havoc on most ignition modules (especially MSD) when the field collapses in the vicinity of the pickup coil or wires leading to it, a small amount of voltage is induced into them, falsely telling the ignition module that the reluctor has just triggered the pickup coil and that it is time to fire the ignition. Oh, as to my screen name, I once waxed a 5.slow mustang on top end speed in my 2.76 geared 4200lb. 1966 Dodge Monaco, thus, deadhorse66.
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  #23  
Old 10-29-2002, 03:21 AM
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Default plug wires...

I'm running 8mm ( I think they are anyway, they may be 7mm) Taylor wires, with chain mail boots to prevent the headers from melting the wires. I will definitely ask the speed shop if they are solid core wires.
I have the 10K Mopar Gold Box for an ignition module.
I'm running a stock distributor with the vacuum advanced plugged up.
I'm definitely going to change the metering rods this week and may even re-jet the carb., which is a 750cc Eddy. Then adjust the timing to say 16 to 34, which is what one Speed Shop owner told me today.
I hope those expensive Taylor's aren't hurting me, and if they are, then what are my options?
Stu
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Old 10-29-2002, 04:56 AM
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MSD supression core is a good wire, but expensive. I run 7mm stock replacement Standard brand wires. They work fine for an ignition that is not really hot, and you can get them for around $40. They aren't really pretty (no braided stainless boots or wild colors), but they are effective.
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  #25  
Old 10-29-2002, 11:33 AM
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I never have been into the "color" thing, I just took the blue Taylor wires because the were recommended and carried by the local speed shop. If they had been black, it would have been all the same to me.
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  #26  
Old 10-29-2002, 11:36 AM
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The color of the wires was secondary and irrelevant to me, I just took the blue Taylor wires because the were recommended and carried by the local speed shop. If they had been black, it would have been all the same to me.
I'm going to try the carb. kit this week and the timing changes and see if it runs any better.
I'll keep everyone updated, because I really want this problem resolved. The rear-end gears have been enough of a pain, I don't want any long-term driveability issues.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2002, 12:25 PM
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Default good results...

Please read the next message...
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2002, 12:27 PM
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Default Some good results...

For everyone that contributed advise to my drivabiltiy problems, here is some good news: after setting the timing curve and the timing itself to what some have suggested ( around 16-degrees advanced), the damn thing actually runs right!? What the hell did I do wrong for that to happen?! LOL.
I also replaced the metering rods and springs in the Edelbrock 750, allowing for more fuel flow and it cured the stammering issue at a dead stop, which is why I had the timing advanced as high as I did originally.
I was unable to add a spacer under the carb. as someone suggested, due to hood/air-breather cleanance, but with the K&N in place, it seems to run strong and well.
I filled it with 93-octane pum gas and it runs fine. I'm going to try this for a while and see if my luck continues. Thanks again to everyone who contributed advice, for it was much appreciated and much fun.
Stu Barnhill,
St. Louis, MO
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2002, 03:38 PM
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Stu - it's really good news that your car is running well. I'm glad that the people on the forum were able to give you some suggestions. Sorry that the spacer won't work. You could always chop a hole in your hood!!


Please vote in the pole on the thread "Taking a stand". Voting on this should be important to all MOPAR lovers
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2002, 11:26 PM
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Default maybe a new hood/

I was hoping to get a new fiberglass hood for Christmas. I have been eyeing one for some time with a Six-Pack scoop molded into it, but the price is a bit steep. Thanks again for all the help, folks.
Stu
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