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  #1  
Old 11-06-2002, 08:31 AM
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Angry Any car can now be "numbers-matching"!

Oh joy!

Check out this site! These guys will custom make tags for your car to make it look "numbers-matching". No more looking around for years to find the right parts. And then, you can turn around and sell your car to some sucker for twice the price you paid!

Will technology ever cease to amaze me?

http://www.trimtags.com/about.html

P.S. I hope everyone has seen the sarcasm in this post.....
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2002, 09:45 AM
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Oh good! Yet another way to get ripped off. Did anyone see what happened to Claude Losier and his buddy with the pilot '71 cuda in Mopar collector's guide a couple months back? Wow, did he get screwed. Maybe it's a good thing I can't afford numbers matching musclecars. I'll just keep building regular production cars into what I want and not misrepresenting them.
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2002, 10:25 AM
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Yep, just one more thing to be concerned about, when buying an old car.

I can't believe that they are getting away with selling forgeries, like this. I would have to wonder if it is actually legal for them to do this.
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2002, 10:40 AM
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Default Legal?

I don't see why not, as long as they don't mess with VIN tags.
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2002, 12:38 PM
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The only reason that I question legal, is bcause they are making a false representation to the vehicle. With this, you can take a white '70 Challeger, paint it plum crazy, change the fender tag and sell it as an original high impact color car.

I know that messing with VIN is a BIG no - no.
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2002, 03:52 PM
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I think these goofs are even mis-representing what numbers-matching traditionally means. I have always been told it means that the vin numbers on the car and the car's parts where the vin is stamped (engine, transmission - sometimes, body parts) all match. It has nothing to do with trim codes and the like.

This does seem fradulent to me....
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  #7  
Old 11-06-2002, 04:10 PM
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You're right about what numbers matching means.

I did a little research and found that it is legal to reproduce fender tags, but not for fraudulent purposes (tough to prove I bet). They don't have a chrysler logo on them so it is not a copyright infringement. Build sheets are illegal though because they have the chrysler corp. logo on them.

What happens is that people take a car, make fraudulent fender tags for options the car never came with and sell it as a highly desirable well optioned car thus generating a healthy profit. Nothing wrong with restoring a car and adding options as you see fit, just don't try to sell it as "one of 10 with power windows, a six pak and red interior". There is a special place in hell for these people.
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2002, 04:40 PM
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Thats flat out Fraud! If you were to buy a car with a false tag, thats misreputation... no if ands or buts, you buy the car for what it is, not what it could have been...... I think a good lawyer would be able to nail someones ass, and probley get the persons responsable in deep chit... if you were to buy one of these false cars... what a scam!!!! I think it like changing the vin #'s in a way.. those fender tags have some or all the vin #'s on them... bummer for those who may never know .....

coolcarz
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  #9  
Old 11-06-2002, 07:48 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Apparently they have some small amount of ethics:

"Note: We don't have a problem changing paint codes, trim codes, convertible/vinyl top color codes, or option codes. We will not change "STYLE" numbers (i.e. convert Tempests into GTO's, Cutlass' into 442's, six cylinder cars into eight cylinder cars)."
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2002, 02:11 PM
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I was looking in this months MCCG and it had a article on how to tell Repro tags from originals one goof that were on the frauds the 1 didn't have the line under it so it looked like a I and they put wrong options that werent available for that year. Its too bad but i guess it's something people are going to have to be more cautious about!
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2002, 03:06 PM
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It's too bad that we have to put up with this kind of business - people restamping tags to make the car look original whether to fool or not. The reason I am so opposed to restamping is that sooner or later, a classic car gets passed on. And from then on the history dilutes such that a person may not know what a car was originally, looks at the tags, and thinks that how it came.

There is a difference however between restamping tags and having reproductions made.... fender tags do get corroded, ripped, torn, missing and the first thing I spot at a show with Mopars is missing tags or bent, worn originals. Mine are pretty rusty and I know it would be hard to make them look decent as originals. In this case keeping the original tags and hving new ones made seems to be the best course and is perfectly legit.

It's just too bad some people will change options on the tags to make a car more desirable... a definite negative to our hobby.

The way I combat it is by buying the worst beaters imaginable... that way it's not worth it for someoen to change the tags and I know it's perfectly legit :-) That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:19 AM
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I sold a '69 HEMI Road Runner in 1992. It was F-8 green with black int. I saw it 1999, red with white int. and a R-4 paint code on the fender tag. This spring it showed up again with a different owner. When asked if he knew the original paint code he said R-4. I told him Galen Govier had a copy of the original F-8 tag. He sold the car soon after. I think he was a little embarressed he was duped in buying a car that had falsely altered. This is a guy that loves Mopars and some low life took advantage of his enthusiasm.

Cecil
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2002, 08:06 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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OK, there's another side to the debate. what about guys (like me) who have authentic optioned cars but the fender tag is missing and so is the build sheet?
Eventually I intend to take advantage of the tag service with no intent to defraud. Should the service be banned because some might request fraudulant tags?
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  #14  
Old 11-09-2002, 04:11 AM
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Its not just this company but there is one other one too. I cant remember the name but they also will make what you want. The only reputable place I know that makes tags only with proof of what the car issupposed to be is AG Backeast. I have never heard anything bad about them yet.
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  #15  
Old 11-10-2002, 11:44 AM
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I had a tag made to replace the original on my charger. I did the right thing and had Galen make me a tag.

That's the only way to go. Not only does he make a tag for you, but now there is a permanent record of your car on file with him.

I keep my raggy original in a filing cabinet in a plastic bag, so when I die, and my wife sells the car, the new owner will know the truth.

Oh, and if you think these trimtags scumbags are not making vin tags too, you are kidding yourself. If they are admitting openly that they are forging fender tags, you can only imagine what goes on behind closed doors.

Just take a look at the first page on the site....before they started making the forgeries themselves, the admit they were going to junkyards and yanking tags off one car and putting it with another. guess they were not making enough money doing it that way, so now they produce them.

The sad thing is, even if they get caught, they will not get punished. just open up under some other name somewhere else.
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  #16  
Old 11-10-2002, 02:11 PM
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As far as I know he sends it out to have someone else do it. plus your paying him his fee for being the middle guy. AG Backeast is cheaper and is as reputable as anyone else around. Why pay a middle mans fee when you can go directly to the source.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2002, 04:51 AM
George G. Leverette George G. Leverette is offline
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Just wondering how many people look at the tag to see if the codes are correct? If a person changes the color of the car then the tag is wrong, should they be charged with forgery for changing the color. Just equipped the 72 Duster with MSD ignition and changed to later model K-member is it a forgery? The owner of the car should be able to equip the car any way they please, if a buyer is trying to make a fast buck and get caught with a mis representation who is at fault? Most people buy cars because they like that particular style, modle or color and the options on the car, the factory changed the fender tag to indicate the options on the car. why is it illegal for the owner to do the same thing? Have you detected that I am not a purist the only matching numbers that matter are the ones on the part you buy.
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2002, 10:39 AM
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Change anything you want. Just don't mess with the fender tag, in an attempt to make the car look factory original.

A Plum Crazy, Hemi Orange, Go Mango car is worth more than a white car (if it is original). If you want to respray your white car to a high impact color, that is great. Just don't modify the fender tag, to fool a buyer into believing that is the CORRECT color for that car.

I (and many others) have no problems with a restified car. It's when you restify the car and then fake the fender tag, to make it look original, that I have a problem.
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  #19  
Old 11-11-2002, 01:08 PM
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Agreed.
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  #20  
Old 11-11-2002, 02:10 PM
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I am no purist either, but you have to realize that people who are checking codes are often paying big money for the car based on certian color/option combinations that were present from the factory. That is why it is illegal for the owner to change them.

Changing options, etc... is not a forgery, it becomes a forgerywhen you slap a fake tag on it and misrepresent the car to a prospective buyer.

if someone runs off a bunch of $20 bills on their color copier, no one cares. But , when they try to use it as real money, that's when people get pissed & it is a crime.

Bottom line, it is wrong and illegal to purposely deceive a potential buyer by re-stamping tags. most people would not have a problem if someone wanted a fake tag just to have it. But who is doing that?
the reality is that anyone buying or making these things is probably a thief trying to get over on the rest of us.
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  #21  
Old 11-11-2002, 10:00 PM
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You dont have to be a purist to understand anytime you alter any tag or part of your car and pass it off as something its not you are stepping into a legal wrangle. Like ehostler said. Change the color of your car but dont change the whole tag. Let someone know incase you would ever sell the car. Maybe they would change it back to the right color.
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  #22  
Old 11-12-2002, 12:26 AM
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Angry Just to "stir the pot"

I would like to add that I personally don't have any problem with a restamped fender tag. If you are spending big $$ on a car I would hope that you would look at more than the fender tag to proof everything (like the broadcast sheet). In the event that that isn't available you need to factor that into the negoitations. My point here is that back in the day no one gave a crap about Mopars, now all of a sudden they are collectable and everyone is concerned with value, originality, proof etc. Buy the car car from what it is worth as you see it. If you are buying it based on possible value or resale possibilty you are hurting the entire hobby. Biggest problem now is that anyone who doesn't have the mountian of paperwork, letter from one of the "experts" etc. your car isn't as good as one that does which is what has brought this on in the first place.
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2002, 09:39 AM
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khunfi,

You have a point, I think that this hobby has become too much of a money making venture for some.. taking a lot of enjoyment out of it. That is why I am having a hard time finding good original metal to work with. It's out there but the guys want more than the reproduction stuff (is it worth it? maybe. Can I afford it? Nope) because it's rare. It is more money to them than restoring an old car that will otherwise probably be junked or parted (nothing wrong with making money but I know they have already made more than they paid for the whole car but ANYWAYS).

In any case I have to ask you - why don't you own just standard Challengers and Barracudas? I see from your signature that you own an AAR Cuda and a Challenger R/T. Why didn't you buy standard ones and make them how you wanted? It probably would have been cheaper, especially in the case of the AAR unless you got a screamin deal. Point is, the rarer cars that are more likely to have tags restamped are the ones that people really strive to get - if you really want an AAR Cuda, a slant 6 Barracuda is not going to do. And if you want a certain color, like Panther Pink, triple green is not going to do either. So you pay extra for what you want an lo and behold - you were had. I would be very angry - why would I pay extra for something I could have done myself? Not to mention the whole misrepresentation issue - oftentimes when I am lied to, the lie becomes more important to me than the issue itself.

I think that every buyer needs to protect himself or herself with paperwork and ignorance is not an excuse unless the buyer just doesn't care. I understand what you are saying but if I want a Challenger R/T 440 6 pak in Plum Crazy, no one is going to get away with selling me a 383 standard car in triple green misrepresented as what I want.

Brian
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:23 PM
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I know my last thread was long and rambling, but here is why I have a problem with restamped tags

1. there simply is no reason to want or buy one unless you intend to cheat someone, period!!!!

I agree that if you are paying big bucks for a car, it is up to you to make sure you look into the numbers carefully, or hire someone who can. But that does not absolve the dishonest seller from being responsible for ripping the guy off.

I just cannot understand how anyone could think that restamping a tag is ok- and just because you might be to smart enough not to get ripped off by one of these scumbags, does not make it ok that the next guy got screwed. In a perfect world, we would all be experts who could spot a fake a mile away, but that just is not the world we live in.

the fact that all of us on this thread are debating this sort of depresses me. Really, anyone should be able to go out and buy something based on the sellers word-I know, I know, nice dream....
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  #25  
Old 11-14-2002, 01:45 AM
George G. Leverette George G. Leverette is offline
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Most every piece of metal on a Mopar has an ID number stamped on it. If a fender,hood door, trunk or any other part other than the original is on the car it is no longer an original numbers matching car. But who really cares except the people who want to brag about their trailer queens or talk all day at the cruises when they bring them out four times a year. How many of the posters really drive a 62-76 Mopar daily? How many of the posters really drive foreign iron every day? These things were designed to provide transportation and that is what they should be doing, rather than turning into conversation pieces. Sorry I can't think of a piece of metal as the treasure of my life.
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2002, 11:27 PM
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Default trimtag

Does this mean I should sell all my weird ones before all the fakes pop up ?
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  #27  
Old 11-16-2002, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by George G. Leverette
Most every piece of metal on a Mopar has an ID number stamped on it.
That is not so, on the classics. The classics only had the ID stamped in no more than 4 locations, on the body.

Most newer cars have the identitag on them, to make it harder for chop shops to resell stolen parts.
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2002, 04:46 PM
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Lmao!!! Its bad enough that the car companies screwed up on some of the fender tags before they even left the factory, codes no one knows what they are, or just a wrong code used period..... so they dont really need any help making things worse.. to replace or redo the orginal its ok even if the code is wrong , just as long, as its, the orginal one screwed up by the orignal screwer upper.. LMAO!!!! not some ripper comming up with all the codes that make the car look like a gem..... In a mopar action mag this guy took (two) (three) cars and made a 1970 charger... ok what fender tag did he have?? if one at all??????? not to metion what vin tag???? the one from the ????? I mean thousands of pieces of car from who knows where.. what up....... what tag would this guy have..... ya what up!!!!!

coolcarz
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2002, 08:40 AM
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Laugh Hey Coolcarz, you're right!

I never noticed it before, but I've just checked the VIN and tag #'s on my Challenger, and it turns out that it's actually a plum crazy, Hemi Daytona with power windows! WOW! I'm gonna make a fortune!
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2002, 10:50 PM
George G. Leverette George G. Leverette is offline
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I have a numbers martching 340 Duster and im gonna pull a couple of tags one from a truck and one from a van. Will post on how long before they are detected by all those knowledgeable Mopar folk.
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