oil through pushrods?

[dkn1997]

Here's the thing: I am changing to roller rockers on my 440 and the instructions say to use pushrods that oil through the holes. I understood that shaft mounted rockers like ours oil through the shaft and that "oil through" pushrods are not necessary. I already bought new pushrods for this swap with a "cup" on one end to accomodate the adjuster on the roller rockers. I thought, no big deal, just order the ones that oil through, but summit tells me that you cannot get that type and still have the cup on one end. They also say that oil through is not necessary because of the aforementioned shaft oiling. I put it to you all, what is the truth? do I need the oil through type? if so, where could I get them? thanks,kevin

[caveman]

Somebody is making a mistake here,maybe the instruction sheet.You would need different lifters also,to oil the pushrods.I have never heard this before,The pushrod cups are oiled by a spirt hole on the rocker arm with mopars.Make sure they are there,and put them on.

[dkn1997]

yeah, I checked rollers, and they do have a hole for cup oiling, sounds like a plan......

[dave571]

Probably just a generic form.

I seem to remember getting instructions in the oil pump for my B engine, specifying that the pickup tube be tightened into the pump properly, prior to installation.

A tough thing to do, since the pump is on the outside of the engine, and the pickup tube inside the oilpan.

[blackcuda]

Comp makes a lifter and adjuster that you can use if you want to oil through the pushrod. I use them in my 440. I still have oil comming from the rocker too. I do have less oil press. at idle than before, around 20 psi. I changed over after I kept breaking pushrods at the cup. It worked in my case, but I don't know if or at what level of spring press and or RPM that it is needed.

[dkn1997]

I had a question regarding the polylock adjusters on the rockers. do you adjust with the allenhead center and then simply tighten the nut, or should I use some type of thread locker as insurance against loosening up? I am asking as much as I can now before I "F" something up.

[cuda66273]

No Thread Locker!

You just set the clearence with the allen wrench and hold it tight as you snug the lock nut down to about 30-35
#'s of tork. Double check the clearence...it'll take some getting used to but with a little practice you'll be a Pro.

Be sure and check that you don't have more than 3 threads showing on the bottom of the rocker arm. If your showing more threads you have some geometry problems and you can break the ball off the adjuster.....ouch!

Here's something for you all to think about.....look at the location of the oiling holes in the shaft....now look how the rocker arms are drilled...do they line up...probably not.....this is a major engineering defect for a performance application...OK for stock as they will get some oiling...when I get more time I'll write a tech tip on this problem, how we fix it and post it on our web site in the tech section.

For you guy's that are starting to build some big HP you should look at the Milodon rocker shaft oiling system. It pulls oil from the main oiling gally and pumps it right into the rocker shaft.

...and stay away from the needle bearing type rockers....they'll eat the shafts if your running any respectable spring pressures.

[dkn1997]

aplogizing in advance for my ignorance, but jumping a bit ahead, if I run into a geomotry problem, how is this fixed? is it a matter of changing pushrod length? also, I would be very interested in hearing your solution for the oiling problem (holes not lining up)

[caveman]

As far as geometry,shorter or longer pushrods are the answer,your probably OK there,but 3 threads max is where it should be.Not sure about what Cuda was talking about,but the guy knows his stuff.We'll have to wait for his reply on that

[dirty dan]

Originally posted by dkn1997@aol.com
aplogizing in advance for my ignorance, but jumping a bit ahead, if I run into a geomotry problem, how is this fixed? is it a matter of changing pushrod length? also, I would be very interested in hearing your solution for the oiling problem (holes not lining up)

Often valve train geomotry is trown out of wack by Decking the
block and shaveing the heads.
This in effect makes the factory push rod length to long.
This can be esaly corrected .
By shiming the rocker arm shaft.
This works well and is much cheaper then another set of push rods.

[dkn1997]

yeah, I got this motor as a complete original high mileage unit, still had factory pistons/head gaskets, etc... I had the blocked decked and the original heads milled as little as possible just to true them up. at the time, my machine shop told me that stock length pushrods were making things just a bit tight. he said I could get away with it, but I decided I wanted it exactly right, so I purchased new pushrods. Curious, these same pushrods I took out of the motor yesterday had 9.250 stamped on them. I thought this was the factory "stock" length. might have gotten screwed on that one. the ones I ordered for the new roller rockers are "stock" length (crane, listed in the summit catalog as 9.250"), so I hope with adj rockers, I will be ok. I will keep you all posted. everything is disassembled, just waiting for a valve spring compressor (changing springs too)

[dkn1997]

oh yeah, almost forgot, I am going to change the springs with heads on engine and I will pressurize the cylinder with air to keep the valves from dropping in. How much psi will this take? anyone out there ever done it this way? I have read that you can do it by snaking a length of rubber tubing into the sparkplug hole with piston on the up stroke, then turn crank just a bit to hold tubing against bottoms of valves. I do not like that suggestion at all, would rather use air.

[dirty dan]

Do you have a compresstion tester?
They generaly come with an adapter for different size plug holes.
This adapter can be plumbed with a quick disconnect to fit your air hose.
You may need a few fittings such as 90`s and 45`s to snake the air supply around the manifolds.
When you apply air pressure with the rockers removed the piston will be pushed down and the valves will be held up by the air pressure.
As long as 100psi or better is applyed the valves will stay closed.
However if air presure is allowed to drop so will the valve.
But this is a time proven method that works well.
Hope it helps
Dirty Dan

[dkn1997]

yes, I have a compressor and adaptors for my plug holes, and a quick disconnect. rockers are off and now just have to get a spring compressor and I am good to go. thanks

[charger_dan]

Kevin,
I've used the 'rope in the bore' method on two separate occasions, and it
works just fine. Cheap too. If you try this method, just use some nice
new woven rope, like you might use for a clothesline, instead of that cheap
yellow synthetic crap, which will tend to 'shed' little fibers in your bore.

Besides being cheap and easy, I did spring swaps this way because I have
an overactive imagination, and would worry about the valve breaking seal
in the cylinder and falling through. heheh. With the rope, that is an impossibility.

Good luck.

[dirty dan]

Don`t dispair use the air

[dkn1997]

you would think swapping a set of rockers would be easy, right?

anyway, ran into a slight snag-new rockers require the spring kit for the rocker shafts to position them over the valves. ok, so no big deal, I will order the kit, BUT- for $hits and giggles, I brought the motor to tdc, bolted on shaft with just the two #1 rockers on it-wanted to check geometry and make sure that I had no more than two or three threads showing on the adjuster through the bottom of the rockers.

the good news is that there are not more than two or three threads showing, the bad news is with the adjuster totally out (meaning sitting on bench while rocker is bolted to motor) the pushrod cup rests tight up against the bottom of the threaded hole that holds the adjuster!!! can I solve this with shims on the shafts? seems to me to be way way off. or do I need shims AND shorter pushrods. I would rather just shim the shaft, but I will do what I have to. I need you guys on this one

[kudah440]

I agree with el cheapo rope in the cylinder methor for the spring change...just in my experience, sometimes your need to lightly smack the spring to get the lock loosened to pull out... if you do this with the compressed air method, the valve most likely will break its airtight seal and fall down into the cylinder (hopefully you put that cylinder at the top of the cycle) The cheapo rope method doesnt have this problem to work around.

[blackcuda]

Sound to me like you need shorter pushrods. Think about it, if the cup is that close now what do you think will happen at full lift?

[dkn1997]

ok, I decided to go back and check what I did yesterday and found that I was not at tdc. I rechecked with cyl #1 at tdc and things make much more sense. I was able to get "slack" and turn the adjuster in to make up for it.

I did a search and read @30 posts dealing with adjustment, shims, lash, etc. I still am not 100% clear on some first, I have seen it mentioned here many times about not having more than 2 or 3 threads of the adjuster protruding from the botom of the rocker arm. with my rocker adjusted properly, I barely have one showing. Do I even need to have more showing? seems like if I raised up shafts with shims, the adjuster would have more of a straight shot into the lifter cup (better geometry) what is the best angle to have between the rocker and the pushrod? how would I check this? do I need a tool or is there a way to visually check it? also, how do I determine how many shims? since I want two more threads showing, do just shim the shafts equal to the height or two threads on the adjuster? I know, lots of questions, but I want this to be right- this car is like another child to me so I don't want it to get sick!-

[blackcuda]

I understand my car is like another child to me too! It has been my understanding that when adjusting the rocker you want to have enough adjuster showing that the cup does not contact the rocker. If you use alum. rockers they will expand and flex more...
But you do not want too much adjuster showing where it throws off the rocker's geometry... The rule of thumb that I have seen is to try to get the adjuster at two threads, but you do have a small window. A good close look should tell you if it is close or not, and then it just depends on how fine you want it to be.\

I hope this helps.

[dkn1997]

I have maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of one thread showing through bottom of rocker. If I was closer to the 2 or 3 that everyone says is correct, i would be content. but, I am going to try to shim the rockers .010" and check again. oh, almost forgot. anyone ever run aluminum rockers and find that stock valve covers will not fit. I test fit mine and seems real tight. I was wondering if anyone out there had problems with this, and what covers would definately fit