OK, I've decided - W-2s it is

[66 Dartman]

Anyone running the Econo heads? How do you like them?

[451Mopar]

Try the racing section, I think you might have better responses there.

[rumblefish360]

The econo heads are neamed for the easy no expensive use of stock 340 T/A valve train. Thats it. It has the same performance potential as the race version which lacks pedestals for the rocker saft.
300+ cfm's can be had without getting waco on welding and such crazy mods. Big tube headers work well here. I have seen at the track 2 1/8 tubes on these heads.
Wanting to go fast?

W-2 it!

[66 Dartman]

Yeah, that's definately how I'm going. I priced out the shafts and rockers...It's funny because they are the most expensive part of the head. The rockers and shafts cost as much as one of the heads...

Anyway. Koller Dodge has them listed for $334 a head. That's not bad at all. Intake choices are somewhat limited compared to stock configuration, but between MP, Edelbrock and the older Holleys, every RPM range you could need is covered.

[rumblefish360]

Weiand has a daul plane for the W-2. Holley has a race single, MoPar has both. Edel. has a Victor for it I believe. That's it.
Unless you want a tunnel ram......
MoPar has'em and Holley used to make them, still might.

[DartGT66]

Don't know if you have ever looked at the flow numbers, but it seems to me that there is not much benefit of the W2 Econos over production based heads. All W2's I have seen do not shine at lower lifts, a well done production heads can stick with ported W2's almost up to 0.5" lift. After that it's a different story. Since the W2's use stock length valves etc, they are hard on vavlesprings if you intend to add the lift. So, I would take the intended valve lift also in to consideration before choosing the head.

[rumblefish360]

Being a drag race bread head, the W-2 shines in that arena. They can out flow a stock head everyday including Sunday. The W-2 comes in a few flavors. Stock spring height and long valve versions. So stock springs can be skiped for the longer units for that increased sky high lift.
The flow numbers in the catolog are for factory ported heads. The W-2's can get into the 300+ cfm range easy. The stock heads need MAJOR work for that range.
I have seen no problems running W-2's on the street.

[DartGT66]

I know they can get to 300+ flow, but at regular street lifts they are not superior to modified original castings. So, if you only got a 0.5" lift cam, what benefit does it offer that your heads are capable of flowing 300 cfm at 0.7" lift? I have nothing against W2's and they surely won't harm anything, just wanted to bring this point up too. Even the Edelbrocks may be better at the "street" lifts? Hope somebody who has played more with these will give additional info.

[66 Dartman]

Are the flow numbers for .4, .5 posted anywhere for the w2s? I know they flow 260 CFM@.600" according to MP specs.

Edelbrocks numbers are posted on their website.

[rumblefish360]

DartGT66;

Sorry about that then. Your point has been made. And quite right about it to. I know that I have seen the flow specs (W-2) on a site somewhere.

[66 Dartman]

I found some interesting Flow Data here.

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4451/sbhead.html

[66 Dartman]

Found some here too...



http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../360cylhd.html

[rumblefish360]

The second page I have seen before. Thats the one I was thinking about.

[66 Dartman]

The fact that it shows the Edelbrocks flowing more at lower lifts could very well be due to the bowls being blended in at the time of production, whereas W2s are not. With a little bit of bowl work with the templates that MP has I bet they could easily better the flow of the Edelbrocks across the board...

DARTGT66,

As far as stock ported castings go, Why spend 100-200 on a set of heads, spend $500 more for Valves, machine work, springs, etc. THEN spend another $500 -$1000 + to have them max-ported to SLIGHTLY better the flow of W2s, and then have no where to go with them in the future if you decide to build a hotter engine or drag full-time with a .600"+ lift cam. I don't understand how that can be considered economical.

I just priced out everything on Mancini's Website(minus machine work) to put a set of W2 heads together. This includes Econo Heads, Aluminum Roller Rockers and Shafts, Stainless Valves, springs, Keepers, retainers - $1,335

[451Mopar]

Thanks for pluging my web page 66Dartman
I think the Edelbrocks flow well at lower lifts because they have smaller port volumes than the W2's. Actually I think the Edelbrock heads flow pretty darn good when you consider they are using a smaller port size than the W2's and B1 BAs.

[DartGT66]

Just wanted to bring this kind of view to the conversation; I'm not the one to tell anyone he should do something or have it not done. I would propably consider the W2's myself, although they do propably not have hardened exhaust seats? At least they have more future potential than the stockers. Despite of what they say on the second chart, I would not pay a lot of attention to flow numbers from the different benches. AS little as I would compare numbers from different dynos, unless they are calibrated together. Or even in the same bench unless you really know you can rely on them. I have seen them manipulated with using different entrances etc. to make one head look better than another. They compare the flow bench to a track ET's. I think the comparation is actually pretty good; compare high altitude track numbers to good air tracks? Compare unprepped airport ET's to NHRA prepped track ET's?

But like I said in the beginning, the W2's aer not a bad choice at all, on the contrary. You just may not see a lot of performance increase over prepped stock castings in milder engines.

As far as the price goes, I have used two sets of MP heads in the past, one BB and one SB. The SB heads needed a complete rebuild out of the box, loose guides, lousy seat work etc. The BB heads were doomed "decent" and were used like that. The guides on those were good, but the valve job was not. It was still acceptable. Didn't check the valve depths, but have heard about big variances in them too.

[66 Dartman]

Yeah, I agree with you. They will definately be gone over before they get put on. I think the new versions of the W2 econos do have the seat inserts in them but It's good you mentioned that. I'll have to check on that too.

I understand what you mean about ported stock heads for the street. I am just thinking from my point of view and what the future may hold for my car. That's why I'm building my bottom end to handle 8000+ RPM. Because ya never know......

[tooomuch2]

I run w2's (not econo) on one of my motors on the street and it dyno'ed over 650 HP on pump gas... I have an extra virgin set I am thinking of selling...

[66 Dartman]

Which (model)heads needed the complete re-work?

[66 Dartman]

650HP? Do you have a recipe for that dish that you could put in print???

[tooomuch2]

Sure!!

It has all the obvious ones and a few secret process / parts just for my customers... (no bottle)

I should post some pictures... I will take some this weekend if the weather holds...

It was the early heads that had exhuast port problems.

Here is a tid bit... Call me toll free and I'll explain all the specs and what we encountered... We have built several of these motors over the past year - WARNING it high dollar and believe me from someone who has owned and built more strokers than I can count - these kits you can get are the least of your expense if done right. Most of these kit engines (indy / hughes) are good for around 400HP - no where near the potential.

For this fire breathing street machine you need the following...

For these kinds of numbers you need a Race block - X blocks or one of the new high nickle extra think 340 blocks.

Solid or Hydraulic roller
Special T&D Rocker shafts 1.7 intake 1.6 exhaust (have to move stands to correct geometry)

2.10 intake valve 1.60 exhaust

Porting (top secret - have to be very careful not to turn these into full race head - will kill street performance).

Forged lower end ( I like Diamond flat top) Chevy pin
Oliver rods (chevy big end & pin)
total seal rings
King bearings - need to cut full grove in them
milodon oiling system
M1 - heavily modified and ported
Race Demon or 4150HP your flavor (both need work)
Mallory ignition
Special race curved distributor (be careful)
VERY Special Cam - from our cam shop (SADE CORE) Specs (TOP SECRET)
KOOLER W/P
Our own special oil pump - reduces drag!!!!
windage tray - specially modified for stroke and oil flow
torco only oil
champion race plugs (shhh that's a secret)
Custom convertor
SFI Plate
Fluiddamper (modified)
Titanium valves / retainers
special springs


LOTS AND LOTS OF CLEARANCING AND CRANK LIGHTENING!!!

Plus hordes of special machine work!!!

That should get your mouth watering...

All this can be yours for 12 -15 K based on part selection and how many parts are needed...

Call me theres more - BTW - you should see the last B1 motor we did - 860+ HP 480 CI



Mike 1-866-866-7845 toll free

[tooomuch2]

oh almost forgot...

Just in case you didn't know... Once you go w2 you are married to the vavle train, intake & headers... (not sure if all know that)

I use 1 7/8 custom made headers for most of the street stuff but we use 2 1/8 for the 650HP engine no cross over or X (that's another tech article) with 3.5 inch collectors out the back in two seperate pipes!!!

[DartGT66]

The SB heads that needed a rebuild were '308' heads, this was propably around 1990.
I believe, that if you go with the W2's, you might consider investing a little more and get the non Econo long valve versions. They can better handle the possible future upgrades.
I have never personally used W2's, and for the past ten years or so have played mainly with BB's.