Flooding Holley

[dodge440]

Hey guys, I'm back. If you remember I put a post on here in November last year regarding my 1050 flooding in warm conditions.
I am back to driving again, have put the primary bowl off my 830 on it, cause the primary was the side that appeared to flood, and took the pressure gauge off the bowl and put it in the dash where I could see it. I also put a new regulator in the system. I run an electric pump only (from memory a carter or mallory 110 GPH ), mounted at the tank, half inch copper line and the regulator is mounted on the fire wall, with separate lines to the carb, no return line to the tank.
I have noticed on normal cool highway driving that there is around 5 psi, but when my flooding starts which is slow city/traffic light idling,the pressure is fluctuating down to 1 - 2 psi, and will sit that low for some time.
Can it be vapour lock? do I need a return line to the tank? if so where and how do I put it into the system? or is it simply a dud pump.. it is relatively new..
Thanks.

[cuda66273]

Several things:

What size line do have feeding the pump?

What type of filter are you using and where in the sytem is it mounted?

Is the pump a continuous duty type?

Is the sock still in the tank?

A 1050 Holley????? What kind of street motor needs that much fuel??? That carb will run about 800 HP or more.

Remember fuel pressure is only a measurement of restriction and is totally different from fuel volume, although 1/2 copper plumbing should be plenty.

Here's some reading for you.....
http://www.4secondsflat.com/fuelpumps.html

Hope this helps

[dodge440]

Thanks for the reply Don, you may or may not remember we discussed the carb selection on here last November, and due to the Aussie dollar, taxes etc, its what I have, so i will persevere (for the time being).
The tank is an alloy tank I had made last year, I had the problem before that with the standard tank. The line from the tank is 3/8", but it is only 6" long, then into a screw on marine type cartridge filter that looks like an oil filter, then 2" of 3/8" hose then into the pump. The pump is the same as that I have had on the car for 15 years, the old one died, so I replaced it with new. The whole system is the same as it has been since Adam was a boy, it's just been flooding with this carb. As I understand, the drop in pressure I am getting is because the needle at the carb is open. I need to know what is opening it. I have run 2 lots off bowls, needle and seats, o rings etc..
If I run a return line, how do I plumb it into the carb end of the system? Will this even help?
I can't put the old 830 back on because I modified the manifold to fit the bolt pattern of the 1050..

help...

waaaa

any wun want a cheep car???

[cuda66273]

Let's start with the basics,

The line from the tank to the filter should be the same size as the line from the filter to the tank, and both should be larger than the line from the pump to the regulator.
So in your case you should have a 5/8ths line from the tank to the filter, then the same to the pump.

I would install a vent on the tank at least the same size as the fuel supply line or 1/2" vent.

The 1/2" line to the carb is fine and I presume your coming off a regulator with 3/8" or -6 to the carb bowls.

Let's see if we can figure out your problem...the only way a Holley will flood or dump raw fuel into the engine is by pressure created in the fuel bowl or an over full condition. Remember a carb is not fuel injection and there is no pressure inside the carb, the fuel is drawn into the engine by a pressure differential created by the venturi between ambiant and vacuum differentials.

The obvious reasons are of course float level being to high and allowing fuel to pour out through the booster feed circuits. Too much fuel pressure forcing the Needle off the Seat and overfilling the bowls.

The unobvious and still very common causes are plugged anti siphoning holes in the metering blocks allowing the fuel to siphon into either the transition slot or through the boosters. Plugged internal air vents that balance the ambient pressure inside the carb could also be plugged and cause this same condition by allowing the pump to actually pressurize the fuel bowls. Back to Physics 101, you can't compress a liquid but you can air, so if the air gets trapped, you compress it with the pump the opposite reaction will be to force fuel out of any oriface that it can find...right into the motor.

So what does all this mean and how do you fix it?

1. Fix the fuel delivery system so the pump doesn't cavitate.

2. Pull down the carb and clean every oriface

3. Bring the system up to spec, fuel pressure at 6-7#'s at the carb after the regulator.

4. Proper tank vent.

5. Verify fuel flow for the engine demands.....13 second car requires 1 gallon in 35 seconds, 12 second car -30 seconds and so on.
This test needs to be done at the fuel line after the regulator.

6. Double check air flow, a restiction can cause the engine to run choked to death causing a rich condition.

7. Power valve correct for manifold vacuum or defective.

8. Bowls vents clear from obstructions.

9. Floats set correctly.

10. Transition slots are not exposed causing fuel to dump through them at idle.

11. Enough initial advance in the distributor to give the engine time to burn the fuel at idle and low RPM.

12. Your not going to like this one..put a smaller carb on it a 1050 on a street 440 is WAAAAAYYY to big. If you brought it to me I wouldn't waste your money or my time trying to chase a ghost that doesn't exist.

Not knowing what you've done to the motor and just a wild guess but a 750 Speed or Mighty Demon would probably be plenty of carb for that engine and probably cut .5 to 1.0 seconds off your ET. not to mention that fact that all your problems would dissappear.

The holes in that carb ar so big that your losing all manifold velocity under acceleration and the fuel that gets dumped by that toilet is puddling in the intake, the ports, all over the back of the valves and on the piston. Raw fuel unmixed with air is very difficult to ignite not mention the fact that it burns so slow that 1/2 your fuel is probably running out the tail pipe.

You say you can't afford the cost of a new carb...can you afford the cost of all the wasted fuel?

Hope this helps with your problem.

Don

[6 packin]

Yes Great info
I have good luck out of just lowering the needle and seat down a bit. Most Holleys I have used and adjusted like all the manuals say is were the fuel barley trickles out the sight hole on the passenger side bowls when you bounce the car. I have found that they still tend to load up. NOT all the time too, seems to have its own mind. Tighten it down another full turn see what happens before you go dump X amount of money in a fuel system. It wont cost you anything. Also I suggest and strongly agree that TO USE ONLY HOLLEY stuff. Like the needle and seats, instead of the the cheapees in the Autozone rebuild kits.

[JVMopar]

Just out of curiosity why is your filter mounted before the pump? All of the fuel injected cars have the filter mounted after the pump leaving only the sock in the tank to filter for the pump. Electric pumps like to push not suck.

I agree with 'cuda too big of a carb. I know you don't have the cash to replace the carb. but I don't think your going to find another way of solving your problem.

Just my .02

[dodge440]

Thanks for the input guys.
The reason I went for such a big carb is because the motor is 500ci, stage 6 heads etc,and it pulls harder with this carb than it did with the 830 holley. I have also read that though it is rated at 1050, it probably flows in the high 900's cfm, so maybe it isn't so much bigger after all. How much do the 6 pack carbs flow when WOT?.
Don, having read your suggestion about the vent line size, I realise that the guy who made the tank only put a 5/16" vent line from it.. and maybe with the heat build up off the road, is this causing vapour in the tank,(remembering this flooding only happens in slow/stop start warm weather driving) ???. I use a K&N filter, no obstructions anywhere, and CO meter showed 5% levels at 2500 rpm, if thats any good ???
I have the connection to run a temp probe in my headers, is this an accurate way of tuning the carb, and if so, what is the ideal exhaust temp to run?

6packin, I shall try your suggestion of dropping the float level, see what that does too.

JVMopar, I'm a novice at all this, I figured the filter would clean the fuel from the tank before the pump, hence I placed it up stream.. maybe not a good move??
Thanks for the input, I shall try whatever it takes to fix this.. I wonder if my mitsubishi V6 would turn the wheels..

[cuda66273]

Fill out this standard form for me

Just copy and paste it into the reply box and fill in the blanks.

BTW What initial timing are you running?

Complete as much of this form as possible the more info I have the better I can dial your carb and/or distributor.

Car make
Car year
Engine size
Tranny type
Rear end ratio
Tire diameter
Manifold type
Head type and valve size
Cam duration at 50
Cam lift
Cam brand
Compression ratio
Fuel Octane level
Best ET
Best ¼ MPH
RPM at stripe on above run
Convertor stall
Convertor type
General elevation in your area
Shift RPM
Launch RPM
Transbrake?



Thanks
Do

[coolcarz]

sticky needle and seat, or float sticking.. new or not it happens/.. I've gotten bad n&s out of a brand new kit, same thing it would stick here and there, flood like a mo fo... got another new n&s replaced it ,, good to go. played with new old seat,, sure as hell it would stick open every once in a while, like it had a mind of its own.. hehe

[gsmopar]

Dodge440,

I remember the previous thread and glad to see that you didn't give up. I realize that the conventional thinking is that the 4500's are junk on the street, but you're the 3rd person with a stroked rb that has told me otherwise. Keep us posted on your progress!

Later,

Greg

[dodge440]

Don, hopefully you can find enuff info in these answers I have supplied. Initial timing is set at 12 deg.

Car make Challenger
Car year 1970 weight 3400 lb
Engine size 507cu in
Tranny type 727 auto
Rear end ratio 3.89:1
Tire diameter 29"
Manifold type M1 single plane
Head type and valve size Stage 6 ported, 2.19" in, 1.81" ex
Cam duration at 50 241deg
Cam lift .528"
Cam brand MP #P4120659
Compression ratio 10.5:1
Fuel Octane level 96
Best ET n/a
Best ¼ MPH n/a
RPM at stripe on above run
Convertor stall 3,000 rpm
Convertor type Aussie made, Dominator
General elevation in your area Sea level
Shift RPM 6,000 rpm
Launch RPM n/a
Transbrake? no

You could have a point, coolcarz, I have tried a new n/s, and one out of the old carb.. maybe both were u/s. Shall try another new one.

Greg, last June I spent 6 hours on a dyno sorting the distributor, and then the carb. Originally the carb was set up to be either on idle, or WOT, so a local guy here has played with it to get CO levels down. He is one of the best around here, so he hasn't made the thing junk, it just goes harder. He says there is no reason why it shouldnt work with the combo I have, otherwise I would have tossed it away and tried something else. I still have plenty of hair, so I will keep you posted

[cuda66273]

I see 3 red flags...initial timing, single plane manifold and no spacer.

Move the initial to about 16-18 degrees and try it.
Be careful when you move the initial up you'll also move the total up so don't get on it hard as you'll have about 42 degrees advance and that will cause it to detonate.

You'd have much better driveability and less loading or puddling of fuel if you used a dual plane maniflod and a 4 hole spacer.

I believe the condition your describing is:

1. Either being caused by a bad needle and seat

2. A sticking float.

3. Dirt in the carb floating around and plugging off a vent somewhere.

4. A bad regulator sticking open and allowing fuel to free flow.

5. Fuel puddling in the induction system causing it to "load up" which is most likely.

Borrow a smaller carb like a 750 from someone and try it....I've got a feeling that you'll solve your problem.

Yes, that 1050 can be adjusted to behave faily well on the street but because almost every one of these big fuel toilets I've ever worked on have been "Adjusted" for performance or WOT use they usually require a bunch of changes internally. Like smaller air bleeds, channel restrictors, idle circuit restrictors, smaller bleeds etc.

Your chasin your tail here trying to get driveability from a carb that's too big. Even if you get it tuned perfect you'll still go quicker and have better driveability from a correctly sized carb, a dual plane maniflod and a 4 hole spacer your making too many compromises.

Your engine/car combination is screaming for a 850 Speed Demon or for even more performance a 825 Mighty Demon, 4 hole Canto spacer and a dual plane manifold.

Look at my head...do you see any hair?

See all those wrinkles in my face?

See that extra large bottle of Tums over my workbench?

If you remember our AMX project...$3000 in Dyno time.....they told him to take the 850 off and put at least a 950 or bigger on the little 401. I didn't believe it so we went the exact opposite direction and bolted down a 750 Mighty Demon...12.71 to 12.06...bigger is not always better.....I need a Tums....

Recent project...408 stroker, the guy spent about 10K putting it all together, then goes to a swap meet and buy's a $50.00 carb and wants me to make it work...no idea of who modified it what it flows or why it was sold for $50.00...that's why I have no hair left....I need a drink.

The story's go on but the truth is you need to have the correctly sized and type of induction system for the application or you'll just run into trouble and be disappointed in your investment.


Gotta go... trying to make some time to work on the Cuda today.

Don

[b-1ken]

One thing I didn't see mentioned (I don't think) was, is it possible that your fuel line is too close to your exhaust system? I had a problem with a six pack car and I believe (it was 28 years ago) that we cured it by insulating the fuel line near the exhaust. I don't see a problem with running that 1050 with the exception that the gas mileage might really suck because it has no power valve (do you even care about that or is this a "Saturday Night Special" car).
A question always arises as to whether you should place the filter before or after the pump. Before means you keep crap out of the pump and that's good, but it could possibly cause cavitation. I have my filter (Fram) before the pump with my 499 B-1 and it works fine. The distance from the tank to the pump is about 14" with #8 (1/2") line.
As far as the timing goes, you'd better be setting that at an RPM that is at full advance. I don't think you should go over 37 deg. total. That usually means about 12 deg. initial with a stock Chrysler distributor.

[cuda66273]

************************************************** ************

I'm gone

[amxauto-x]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I gotta. Been there-done that. I had a Holly 1050 on my '67 Mustang 390 full race engine 4-spd back in '70. .533 lift, .312 duration at .05 lift. Solids. And a whole lot more compression than you have there. Had 13.5 :1
Didn't like running on the street too much. Kept loading up and fouling plugs. SO, get rid of that carb and get one more compatable for what you have and are doing. 750 even. The 750 did wonders for that Stang. Do what you can to get it. Trade that 1050 straight across for a 750. Much better for your application. Do what cuda66273 says or you will NEVER get it right and will always be sorry. I've been there-done that, and that was when we had real gaseline, not this crap now!
good luck, Tom

[amxauto-x]

Also, as I remember you have a compression retio of 10.2:1 ? No where's near what is required for that much carburation. Even with that cam, which may be too much for that compression ratio. Please do what cuda66273 says. You'll be happy.

[charger_dan]

I'm puzzled:

Why do guys cling so desparately to their Dominators,
trying EVERYTHING to make them behave,
and then complain about its street manners???????

You want smaller venturis, boys, and more vacuum signal as well.
And for God's sake, get a power valve!
Your cylinder walls (and rings) will thank you.

[amxauto-x]

Some of us have to learn the hard way. I knew that engine could handle that size carb. But, as I learned, not on the street. I was only 21 at the time and it only took a couple weeks to replace that carb and got to the 750. Some people never learn.

[cuda66273]

Thank YOU, AMX and Dan....

Sometimes I feel like I'm just talkin' to hear my own head roar.

Question asked and answered...next witness.

[cuda66273]

Seems the Dodge Boy's from the Pacific Northwest have spoken.....

[amxauto-x]

Hey , if you know for a fact then tell somebody to help them. I know for a fact as I had the exact same carb on a more potent engine. Been there. If someone doesn't care to leason and learn from my mistake that's their problem. And their extra cost. If he keeps it up he will probably blow the motor or wash down the cylinders and screw it up. He's 54 years old, you'd think he'd listen. BUT! Nity Nite now.

[charger_dan]

Cuda,
I've got a carb question for you that I've been wondering about
for a long time now:

When spec'ing a carb for an application, when do you recommend
annular boosters?

I know they're more restrictive than drop-leg boosters, but don't
they also do a much better overall job of fuel atomization and
signal 'boosting'?

Why aren't all carbs offered with them?

[dodge440]

Originally posted by amxauto-x
He's 54 years old, you'd think he'd listen. BUT! Nity Nite now. [/B]

If I knew what I was doing, do you think I would be on here asking questions? Aren't we are all on here to learn? Look for a forum that teaches basic maths, you might learn simple subtraction, then you'll see I'm not 54 !!.. .

Don, I'll email you in the next coupla days.

[amxauto-x]

Your profile said 54. I may have mixed up your profile with someone else's, but still your not listening to those who say to get rid of that carb and get a 750 to 850. THAT is the real point here. Thanks, Tom

[amxauto-x]

Ok, you were born 2 years after me, your 51-52. Not much diff. between 52 and 54. Anyone should be able to understand--"get rid of that carb and get a smaller one"-- expecially if told this by an expert-That person is cuda66273!

I know your pissed about the carb, so replace it !

[gsmopar]

Lighten up guys! It's not like he's putting a SBC in a Cuda. He's just trying to run a 4500 on the street. Like I said earlier he's the 3rd guy I've talked to with a stroked B/RB that has run quicker with the big carb. "J-body" (I think that's his screen name on this board) has a convincing testimonial in his 10 second normally aspirated Mirrada... Yes! I did say "Mirrada" and "10 second" in the same sentence.

Later,

Greg

[dodge440]

Thanks Greg.

Daryl

[b-1ken]

Dodge440: Tell'em that you LIKE your Dominator because it makes MORE POWER! I don't really caterogize your car as a "street car". It's really a Hot Rod isn't it? I mean, you don't really drive this thing back and forth to work do you? I know it's not exactly the same, but I have used Dominators exclusively on my race engines for years. They idle just fine, and I run just ONE set of spark plugs all season. I warm it up, drive around the pits, back it out of the trailer into the shop, all with the same pugs and it never loads up or misses a beat.
Your problem is not the Dominator. You seem to feel that the flooding is heat related and so do I. You stated that you have a 1/2" copper fuel line from the pump to the regulator. Copper conducts heat extremely well (twice as well as Aluminum). Also, a 1/2" line is large enough that the fuel flow through it is rather slow at idle or low load conditions. If it picks up enough heat from being routed close to your exhaust system, it may be heating the fuel enough to cause problems. The hot fuel may boil once it gets past the regulator (lower pressure) or may boil once it gets into the float (even lower pressure AND hotter surroundings). Your 5/16" vent in your tank is PLENTY big enough. Think of pouring fuel out of a gas can with the little vent that they provide and I think you'll see what I mean. As far as building up pressure in the tank is concerned, the fuel pressure regulator would correct that even if it could happen (no way that is happening with a 5/16" vent). Try insulating your fuel line and see what happens.
Ken B.

[cuda66273]

dodge440

Would you please email me direct
bigdaddy@4secondsflat.com

[dodge440]

G'day Ken, I think the main topic of this got lost somewhere, and that is why does this carb flood. Yes I do like running it, it has more power over the 830 annular Holley I had, and I have had Mopar V8's for the last year, running things from 600 vac to 1150's and 660 centre squirters, so I do have a general idea on what is over carburized. I dont have plug fouling problems, and yes, I treat the car as a hot rod, and generally just cruise on a saturday night with other American car owners we have here. I have spent today wrapping the line in insulating fibreglass tape, so will give it a run through the city tomorrow and see what that does for it.
Maybe a Demon is the way to go, I will try a few things first, but will have a chat to Don about what and how.