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#1
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aluminum radiator
I seem to have trouble keeping the van cool, no matter what I do. New rad, even with two different engines.
Without going into the extensive details, and reasons, I am considering trying to retro fit an aluminum radiator from a different application. I'm assuming that the superior heat transfer properties will help my cause. Has anyone tried anything similar, on any of thier own projects? I'm more interested in what experiences have been had with the use of an aluminum rad, than the actual retro fit. I know that part will be my own headache to deal with. |
#2
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try red lines "wetter water"
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#3
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Water wetter works-marginally. Contact "Be-Cool" radiators. Nothing comes close, including Griffin rads..................djs
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#4
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My Dad's 72 Duster has had overheating problems since day 1.
It is a 11.5:1 340, with a one piece front end. We went with a griffin stock aluminum replacement and saw virtually no improvements. He then replaced that unit with a cross flow design that was supposed to run cooler and did not. Wetter water and a good electric fan later, this car still runs pretty hot. Wetter water is probably something you have tried, I would guess. It's good for about 10 degrees off what you would normally run. Setting one big puller electric fan should be enough, but you could always add a pusher(s) to the front to help it out, too. That's IF your charging system can keep up! What sort of thermo you running? What sort of temp is it outside? You know, I have tried running a 160 and a 180 degree thermo with my 12.5:1 318 and that it hotter than heck. It wasn't until I installed a 195 degree thermo, that the car was even remotely streetable as far as how cool it ran. It was the words of "Christopher" a greatly contibuting member of MoparChat a few years ago that helped me finally realize this. Your motor will have a minumum temperature that it can run at and stay cool with normal cooling procedures. If this temp is 190, than a 180 thermo will nearly always stay open and the car will run hot. The idea is to use thermo slightly higher than the normal operating temp of the motor. A stock thermostat temp will do no good for even a mildly built motor, so you will have to experiment some. I like the 195 for bracket racing since I have a better chance during spring and summer racing of being at a consistant temperature as I pull into the beams. Even for later "round robin" rounds, I have a good chance of having a recently opened thermo and cooler water running through the block for the next round. Also since it has a high temp, it will close faster and start to cool the water down in the radiator faster too. Every motor is different, though. Now that I think of it, my Dad's car is even running washers instead of a thermo. This works okay for street use, but once the car is hot, it real hot, and it can't cool down as fast as my 195 thermo can. So, as I get to the point, I wouldn't drop the $500 unless you have exhausted all your other options.... Dartman PS Here's that topic: http://www.moparchat.com/forums/show...ghlight=duster |
#5
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Just a follow up on the electric fan thing...
Dont run 2 electric fans unless they are the same brand and type or one will spin slower than the other and the fans will fight each other. Also dont use a pulley fan, or flex fan with an electric fan. My car used to overheat and I couldnt figure out why. Finally took off the electric fan and it ran great. Took off the stock fan and added the electric and it worked just as good and gave me some better top end. Just adding my $ 0.02 |
#6
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That's very interesting. My 68 cuda (440/ autmatic and 4.56, 4 row radiator, two 14 " elec fans) runs too warm too when driving on the street. This is the first time I've heard of using a warmer thermostat. I knew not to run w/o one or not to use the 160. personal experience backs that up too. I was wondering if anybody else was using the warmer thermostat on a hot street car.
I was considering buying a griffin crossflow aluminum radiator becouse several folks swear by them, but from what Ive read here I have my doubts. |
#7
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Here's some of what I've tried.
Thermostats, varying in temperature from 160 to 195. resultnly changed warm up time. A high flow stat(mr gasket?), made no difference, no stat ran hotter(I knew it would). My best combo has been a 160 with a few 1/8" holes drilled in it, so it flows a little more. Tried that out of desperation, and it seems to work the best. The rad has as many cores as will fit in it. No improvement over the 2 core design. I've tried different water pumps. After going through a few boxes at the parts store, I found 3 variations in impeller design. No change with any of them. Fan: There isn't enough room for bolt on fan, with the rad as thick as it is. An electric fan on the inside, has been my best so far. I tried a pusher fan instead, and found that it was o.k. around town, but no good on the highway. I think it restricted air flow at that speed. I haven't tried an additive. I'm hoping to resolve it with a more traditional method. I don't want to lose the coolant someplace, then be screwed because I can't buy the additive. I transfered the built up engine to my adventurer. The adventurer has a beat up 2 core rad and a clutch type fan. It runs cool now. The VAN(with the stock 400 from the adventurer) still runs hot. Even now(early spring/late winter). When summer hits' I'm sure it will be an issue. It would seem that the bigger engine in the confined space of the van, is the issue. No room for air flow I wasn't planning on dropping $500 for an aftermarket rad. I'm hoping to use a radiator from a more modern cube van or something, and make it fit, by modifying the rad support. Increase my coolant capacity, and hopefully the result will be good. Something wider, so I can get two big fans on it. That's the plan anyway. I suppose water wetter, or purple ice, is a lot cheaper, if it helps. |
#8
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I don't know whats wrong with some of the combos here but, I've been running my 340/379 ,14- 1, 640 roller motor on the streets for years never,NEVER does it go over 160, doesn't even touch 160!!!! I have a griffin rad, use wet water ,160 thermostat,and stock water pump with a old ass flex fan and NO fan shroud.
this is with driving for 3 hours at a time stoping at cruise night spots and driving around for a few more hours, and it's not cool here during the summer!! |
#9
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The stock motor in the van is really puzzling, since it should be able to be kept cool by traditional means. What thermo temp is stock for a 400 of this year? Maybe vans have a different thermostat than the adventurer?
I have a '96 conversion van that the hump and doghouse get very hot to the touch, all year round. There is very little air that gets in the engine bay of a van. Have you considered some additional duckwork to cool the bay down? Not exactly a great solution, but an alternative to custom mounts for another radiator. This is also why my Dad's car's one piece front end limits air flow, and still has problems even with an aluminum radiator and wetter water. The opening through is only about 5 inchs by 15 inches, and the bumper goes right back almost to the rad underneath. Here in Iowa we get some of the coldest winters, and some of the hottest summers too. Not to mention gobs of humidity. The only cool running Mopars I know of have less than 9.5:1 compression. It seems that many times high compression engines and traditional cooling methods don't mix. Every motor is different though, this is maybe why 10sec340's car runs so cool with the help of the Griffin radiator and wetter water. Even timing can affect how hot your motor runs, as much as 10 degrees, so maybe you can back your timing off? Interesting topic.... Dartman |
#10
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Kinda makes me wonder about lean, timing, or some sort of restriction. BB's are usually easy to cool. I run an aftermarket 27" 2 row alum in my circle burner. I have an Intrepid plastic nose piece that has no forward openings, the front is closed to about 1" below the bumper. I have a dam made from conveyer belting right below the front edge of the radiator that clears the ground about 2". I'm running a homemade alum shroud and 4 blade fan. I use a 160 stat to speed warm up time, and after 20 laps of 4500 to 6500 R's in 100 deg weather it is usually around 185 deg.
Another thought, I am running a 6" crank pulley and a 5" w/p pulley to keep the pump a little above engine speed due to the high R's. You might try juggling the pulley sizes to speed or slow the water speed through the system. The race car will not cool with std pulleys. (approx 7-1/4 crank & 4 w/p) |
#11
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Dave-
What temp is your van running?? And what are you condidering too hot?? |
#12
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I'm not sure the exact temperature now, but it does get up to about half on the gauge(In the van not the truck)
The performance motor, only gets to the first tick of the normal section(in the adventurer) Half way on the gauge is quite warm, considering how low ambient temperatures have been. Definately makes me concerned for the summer. The Performance motor(when in the van last year) would routinely get very high on the gauge, to the point where it starts to run like it's going to stall. Your normal pre boil over type stuff. I haven't spent any time on the stock motor, to narrow down the obvious stuff. I'm reasonably sure it's not running lean. In fact it probably runs a little rich, since I don't need to kick the choke on to start it, no matter how cold. Doesn't flood though. I haven't checked the timing on the stock motor. I didn't remove the distributor during the swap, and it ran cool in the truck. Perhaps it's as simple as air flow. The Van design is terrible for air flow. There is virtually no engine compartment. Just engine. If air flow is the problem, then that would also explain why the additional cores haven't helped. They have the ability to remove more heat, but need more air to do it. That's my thinking anyway. With that in mind, my solution is probably an extremely high output cooling fan. |
#13
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Well it sounds like your definately running hot. I think that I'd go with an aluminum radiator. Personally I'm going to go the be cool radiator route this summer with my '73 dodge. It gets hot when I'm running the A/C and I hate the heat so A/C is a must.
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#14
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Dave -
As you've learned, adding additional cores to your radiator won't help. You need to run more surface area instead. Spend some time researching the OEM and aftermarket offerings, and get the largest aluminum radiator you can find, that will fit. If you go with electric fans, select a good quality brand (SPAL), and use pullers only. Get an accurate gauge on that motor and see what your temps are really coming in at. I went from a 4-row custom "Desert Cooler" copper/brass radiator to a Howe universal 19" x 31" aluminum, with 2 rows of 1" tubes. Dual Spal 13" high perf. puller fans, controlled by a thermo switch. In the summer I run straight distilled water, and some Redline Water Wetter for a little extra insurance. Works great for me. Good luck. DAN |
#15
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Tha is my line of thinking. More area, more flow, more cooling.
The rad support is big on the Van, but the opening it small. Perhaps the BB vans had a wider rad, and that is my problem. |
#16
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I think that your electric fan is the problem. I was having a major time cooling my charger with a pretty mild 10:1 440 with iron heads. Since an engine driven fan is out of the question for you, I would try to get something that pushes like 3000 cfm. Try Spal, supposedly, their fans are the only ones that truly move the cfm they advertise.
I tried everything, many combos of engine driven fans with a pusher electric on front, tried just the electric (2100 cfm) as a puller, no luck. switched to a be cool, still overheated. tried a different clutch fan, still overheated. here is the configuration I found that makes this thing run very cool, never gets above 180 even in summer. 160 t'stat, fixed "flex" fan (i know, but at least I painted it black so it does not look ridiculous), shroud (had to get creative with my dremel to make this out of a stock one) stock daim. pulleys, be cool alum rad, 2100 cfm pusher on front wired to a switch, only use it when it gets real hot. It always ran cool driving, but would boil over when stopped, so my conclusion was that the rad could cool the motor provided it had enough air going through it. I would have gone with the 3000 cfm electric, but I had dropped so much dough at that point that the flex fan was cheaper (I think my clutch fan was not moving enough air) Don't bother with the water wetter, It may help lower temps on a car where it already runs ok without boil over, but will ABSOLUTELY NOT SOLVE A BOIL OVER PROBLEM!!! fyi, I called be cool with my cooling problems and they said that an aluminum rad will not solve a boil over problem either, it just lowers temps in situations where the stock rad is running ok, maybe just a bit hot. just my 2 cents |
#17
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I'm interested in a more modern rad to benefit from the side tank design. Also, because a wider rad will enable me to put more fans on.
I'm trying to find a "wrecker" solution so it cost's me 100 instead of 300. I've noticed crown vics have a really big electric fan on them. |
#18
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rad
I agree with more surface area. But not with electric fans. In a car, okay . . . in a heavy van with airflow management problems, no.
Look to see that ALL air is forced thru radiator opening, not over or around. Plus need a close fitting shroud. A junkyard GM pickup or Camaro or early '80's GM B Body plastic air dam to make sure that air is, again, forced up and thru radiator AND not just looping from rear back to front (its possible). Backflush hell out of that block. A verrry thin mineral build-up can cut heat transfer by 40% according to some. Check to see that water pump is A/C type to keep coolant moving. (Or MILODON). A mechanical fan -- 18" with HAYDEN HD Thermal clutch -- would be my first change. I run an A/C-equipped 4700-lb '71 Newport with a too lean carb (till money starts again), with an undersized 2-core rad (thanks, Pop), 195F thermostat in Dallas with overnight lows of 90F and highs of 105F for several summer months without overheat problems. Compression is low, and motor has one cylinder nearly dead, but it keeps on chugging along when I see "new" cars blown on roadside. Flush hell out of it two, three, four times before you get out the check book. |
#19
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I would really look into a griffin rad. We use them on our race cars. Good pieces and cheaper than bee cool too. Yes grab that crown vic fan and shroud. Even better if it's an old patrol car. You know how hot they get at idle with all the suff they have running all the time. Might consider a fiber front air dam for your van to direct more air throught the grill instead of under the van. One thing no one has mentioned yet is to up the jets a number or two. That will help out some too. Since it's and auto tranny add an extra cooler in line with the rad cooler. Sometimes the tranny can cause it to over heat if it's too hot as well. If that helps next thing I'd do is check your tranny fluid and gasket to see if it's stopped up and causing extra heat in tranny.
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