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  #1  
Old 04-04-2003, 01:43 PM
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wow 400HP from a 318? Yikes!!!!!!

I just picked the latest issue of HotRod and read the article where they got 400 crank HP from a bone yard 318! It's a good read.

But then I thought wait a minute! Mopar Muscle put a Mopar crate 360/380 on a dyno and got 400HP and were very impressed with the results, and so was I.

Hmmmm....lets see, $3500 for a mopar crate @ 400HP or $1500 for a bone yard 318 @400HP.

Am I missing something here?
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2003, 02:28 PM
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I don't know, but it seems to me that if you have the crate motor, you're missing some padding in your wallet, hehe
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  #3  
Old 04-04-2003, 03:04 PM
Dartcustom Dartcustom is offline
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Dont forget alot of porting went into those 318 heads.
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  #4  
Old 04-04-2003, 03:37 PM
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Porting? Sure there was a lot, but HOTROD did a pretty good job explaining what was done. But I'm still troubled by the results.

It seems the bottom line is, there's not much difference between a 318 and a 360.

Maybe the 318 is a great motor and the 360 isn't any greater. New or used.....
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  #5  
Old 04-04-2003, 03:40 PM
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it surprised me too. it was a great article from hot rod. if you paid for the head work it would have cost alot more. if you put that much work into a 360 crate motor, what would the results be?
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  #6  
Old 04-04-2003, 04:04 PM
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I suppose the whole point here is, the low dollars spent and the level of performance that was achieved.

I supposed you could purchase heads that would deliver the kind of flow they acheived, but then the story wouldn't have been nearly as interesting.

All's I can say is I'm reconsidering my thoughts on buying a crate.

I'll do a little homework , take my 318 and work it over in a way they did and I'm there!
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  #7  
Old 04-04-2003, 10:57 PM
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I think the 318 is one of the best small block Mopars. I think it has many improvments over the 360. Like internal balance, you know bearing life will be better. Floating wrist pins. If Ford can get big numbers from the 5.0L/302 then whats wrong with the 318. Yea..Yea a Ford, I know some people who runs some pretty resprectiable numebrs with the little Buzz box.
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  #8  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:35 AM
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OK, ya think it's an even playing feild, lets try some of the same porting on top of a 360. When the numbers jump, and it wont be inproprtion ethier, you'll understand a little better.
The main thing a 360 has over everyone else is its stroke.
Longer stroke = torque.
This makes leaving the line easier, or passing a snot nose kid more fun.
vanderkwv, you should not be troubled. It's just showing the MoPar might. Apply same technics to larger engines for more power.
I was surprised it cranked out 400 hp myself.
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  #9  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:54 AM
sixpackgut sixpackgut is offline
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ya know we are all acting suprised about that little 318 but the guy we get some of the best advise from(cuda-don) is runnin a 318 with 273 heads. oh ya, if you havnt read that post of his, its with1.84 valves.
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2003, 09:36 AM
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Been following the thread.
On the 318, the cam used was the extreme series. I forget to look at the .050 specs. The cam is large there.
Don runs 1.94 valves, not MoPars 1.84.
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  #11  
Old 04-05-2003, 10:50 AM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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Be careful getting to excited about matching everythign they said and receiving the same results. Most if not all car magazines will stretch things alittle, and or leave some details out. Following everything about porting is another thing, go a 1/16 of an inch different and receive very different results. I think its awesome that much power outta the 318 but am a little skeptical. If its true I would suggest all you guys to buy up every 318 you can find cuz its going to be a run on them. I havent read the article since I dont get into the magazines much, to much stuff I am not interested in, inside them anymore.

to answer your question are you missing something...I am guessing alot. 1500.00 bucks is real inexpensive for 400hp so the old saying goes ....if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Lets ask Don, how much hp he has?
How much money he has into it, time, and testing to receive similar results. Also the porting his time and money he would charge others to do similar jobs?

I am guessing he is just a tad over 1500 bucks.
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2003, 12:21 PM
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I read the article...laughed my ass off and chunked it in the big grey can........

I know what it takes to get 400+ HP out of a 318.....and make it live more than 1 pull on a "hot" dyno.

The 1st thing I said when I heard about this article "They're a little low on the HP" .....when I read it, I just chunked it in the trash can......you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool Cuda on a 318....$1500.00 sure, right and the Iraqi's are winning the war.....

Someone look at the dyno sheet and tell me where the HP and Tork curves cross......I forgot to look and the trash man came on weds.

Do the calcs on my set-up for this year 11.95 (or better) in a 3220# car...you'll see that it takes more than 460 HP at the crank...and actually I've spent just a little more than $1500, in fact, price out a set of Titanium valves and retainers

Don't believe everything you read in magazines, they're designed to sell advertising and more magazines...both of which they accomplished with that article.
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2003, 01:10 PM
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They don't have a chart, just a list of hp and torque. as follows high torque was at 408 at 4700; hi hp was at 406 at 5900 rpm. this was in the 3rd test. After putting a 1" spacer under the proform carb on a rpm airgap intake. with out the spacer the results were;;torque=403.1 at 4600 rpm and394 hp at 6100 rpm

stock iron intake and thermoquad; torque=379.3 at 4100;;hp=375 at 6000 rpm
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  #14  
Old 04-06-2003, 01:23 PM
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Funny that Dyno didn't melt....LOL
Where did they cross..anyone?
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  #15  
Old 04-06-2003, 03:23 PM
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how come the article is hard to believe? do we not have faith in our mopower 318?
has anyone with a magnum 360 ever had their asses handed to them by a magnum 318? in a smaller vehicle (dakota), the 318s ability to rev makes it faster than a 360 from the same year..hmmm...maybe hot rod was on to something.
im about to go 12's this year in high altitude with a 360 with about 1000 dollars into it, why can't you do it with a 318?
the 318 is basically a 340 with a smaller bore, and 340s are powerhouses to say the least.

the only magazines that i have seen fudge performance numbers are import magazines. its so funny, they don't even have dyno sheets, they draw graphs and than fill in the power curve with a crayon.

i think all you guys that aren't pushing 400hp and have spent more than that should take lessons instead of just assuming the article is garbage.

by the way that proform carb body is 150 bucks canadian and has the same milled airhorn and smoothed venturis as a 1000 dollar demon.
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  #16  
Old 04-07-2003, 07:27 AM
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The article was written by Steven Dulcich; he has written a lot of engine dyno articles in the past and has even dynoed that very same short block before with edelbrock heads. The numbers (torque/power) do match, the dyno facility was westech's; it was the very same dyno that the enginemaster challenge finalists were dynoed, and considered one of the best. It seems, that it puts out somewhat higher numbers than some other dynos; the stock rebuilds Dulcich has done have produced about the hp numbers factory advertised there. Neverhteless, that's one good article, and great results even though they may be slightly inflated. Which, by the way Dulcich denied. He has run othere combos with the same short block before, and even with aluminum heads etc. has not been near those numbers the current combo produced. Anyway, he always makes good stories and gives us real numbers, which is a very good thing. However, I truly hope he one day installs some of his bullets in to his A-body, and also gets an official 1/4 time so we all can better relate in to what his numbers mean in reality. He just told, that he doesn't have a purpse built car for that (and I don't even want to see them installed in to a built to the hilt 1/4 mile chassis; at least I can't even relate in to a decent NHRA Stock class chassis level) purpose. Maybe Don should contact Dulcich and offer his chassis for the test, and show all the world what these numbers really mean?
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2003, 02:30 AM
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I just don't have much faith in Dyno tests, I prefer the little white slip of paper they give you at the "truth window".

But....they sell lots of magazines....

What we're really trying to accomplish here is:
1. Consistency
2. Longevity
3. Reliability

Don't we really want a car that can run the number and we can predict the dial in easily?

A motor that will make good power and last 300-400-500-1,000 runs without any appreciable drop in power?

A package that will start when hot, idle when cold so we can concentrate on driving rather than worrying about strange noises?

The simple fact is we don't race Dyno's, they’re a tuning tool and the HP numbers they produce are great as a conversation piece but not to be regarded as actual performance under racing conditions.

They're just a tool, no more so than a timing light and the end result is what you do with the information that the tool provides you.

Think about it....max tork at 6500 RPM...you launch at 4200, so what tork does it produce at 4200? That's what get's you out of the hole and gives you the consistant 60' times.

Big Power and big numbers are great, but where are they after the first round, and where are they when the temp gets to 100*+ and the track temp is 160*...that's how you get to the pay window
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  #18  
Old 04-08-2003, 04:16 AM
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I agree, but when building an engine a dyno is the best way to really show what you've got. Although on track performance numbers would be even better WITH the dyno numbers, the engine is still only one part of that combo. I still think the article was a great one, although I don't have a lot of faith in the actual numbers either. But even if they were hundred horsepower off, it should still be a great performing 318, and can be basically duplicated pretty easy. Of course a total rebuild and some extra reliability add ons would increase the price considerably. And those numbers should be comparable with other engines run in that dyno.
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  #19  
Old 04-08-2003, 11:24 AM
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Quote
"Of course a total rebuild and some extra reliability add ons would increase the price considerably"

Exactly............
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  #20  
Old 04-10-2003, 09:12 AM
FASTDARTCHESTER FASTDARTCHESTER is offline
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Guys,

I did almost the same buildup on my 318 end of last summer. Only differences: I used 1.88" intakes, an MP .474 lift cam (has more duration @ 0.050" than theirs), an M1 dual plane, Holley 600.

Just finished building the trans this week. I am putting it back in in the next week and I should hit the track within the month.

By the way, I did use the '302 heads and ported the snot out of them. I really think it is a good head as I've used them on past buildups with great results.

All this is going the an A body. We'll see how she goes.

GOAL: to give Don a run for his money (LOL).

TD

Don't forget, the 1500 didn't include the rebuild of the bottom end (I don't believe). So there was no machine work involved.
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  #21  
Old 04-10-2003, 10:38 AM
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FASTDARTCHESTER is right. The build up did not include the price of the engine being built before hand. That cost eludes me, but I'd say another $1500. Give or take a few bucks.
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  #22  
Old 04-10-2003, 11:27 AM
FASTDARTCHESTER FASTDARTCHESTER is offline
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Yep,

It depends on how you build it but what they achieved can be done with cast Federal Mogul pistons and stock components, including machining, for prolly 2000 bux. The engine will be relatively reliable too. Tuning is essential. Everything is relative (shop charges, where you buy the parts, on and on and on).

Just depends how crafty you are. Porting is easy but you really have to study what works and what doesn't. Just removing steel won't cut it. I did a lot of research to understand what I was doing before I dove in.

Again, that cost is estimated to take a stock 2 bbl to a performance 4 bbl engine.

My 2 cents
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  #23  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:06 PM
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Fastdartchester.....I'm lurking in the bushes waiting to sneek a peek at your time slip....LOL
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:28 PM
FASTDARTCHESTER FASTDARTCHESTER is offline
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haha!

just a little down home competition! gotta love it!

as soon as I get out I will let you know Don.

How's business been? I got some more stuff coming down the pipes i may need machining on. I'll keep you posted.

FDC
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  #25  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:40 PM
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The artical said that all they did to the motor after buying it from the junk yard was to take it apart and hone it, using the same pistons and reringing it. It wasn't a rebuild engine. I'd have to reread the artical. The only real work they did was the heads as I remember.
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2003, 03:18 PM
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I'm REALLY tempted to buy a scrap yard 318,or the 318 that's in my Duster now and rebuilding it myself (first time).

Following Hotrod's lead see if I can end up with a stout 350-400 HP small block and for maybe < $2000.00.

Prior to this article and the posts here, I was just going to shell out the $$'s for the crate.

Maybe there's a another way

"The truth is out there"
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2003, 03:24 PM
FASTDARTCHESTER FASTDARTCHESTER is offline
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yes my son, there is another way...build it, and it will run for you
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2003, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cuda66273
I just don't have much faith in Dyno tests, I prefer the little white slip of paper they give you at the "truth window".

But....they sell lots of magazines....

What we're really trying to accomplish here is:
1. Consistency
2. Longevity
3. Reliability

Don't we really want a car that can run the number and we can predict the dial in easily?

A motor that will make good power and last 300-400-500-1,000 runs without any appreciable drop in power?

A package that will start when hot, idle when cold so we can concentrate on driving rather than worrying about strange noises?

The simple fact is we don't race Dyno's, they’re a tuning tool and the HP numbers they produce are great as a conversation piece but not to be regarded as actual performance under racing conditions.

They're just a tool, no more so than a timing light and the end result is what you do with the information that the tool provides you.

Think about it....max tork at 6500 RPM...you launch at 4200, so what tork does it produce at 4200? That's what get's you out of the hole and gives you the consistant 60' times.

Big Power and big numbers are great, but where are they after the first round, and where are they when the temp gets to 100*+ and the track temp is 160*...that's how you get to the pay window.
Exactly. The only engine I have ever dynoed was a 353 inch Chevrolet that I built at school. It made max power with 40* total timing, valve lash @ .010"/.015" and running so lean that you could see J&E on the spark plug porcelain. The horsepower was 502 @ 6500ish rpm, and I forget where the torque peaked, but it was high, and was about 460 lbs. worth. I would say that this engine had in the neighborhood of $4500 invested, and it was a SBC! Also, I doubt that it would pull a greasy string out of a cat's a$$ at the track in the tune that I had it in. Usually, what works best on the dyno doesn't work at the track
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2003, 09:21 PM
barry cox barry cox is offline
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Hi Guys, just signed up and am interested in that 400 hp! I've got a rebuilt 318 that would make a nice project. I'd be putting it in my 56 panel. What they did't say is which cam gear they used ie roller cam ! roller lifters! Also what years and models are the 302 casting heads from?
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2003, 09:34 PM
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They used the Comp Xtreme Energy 268 w/224/230 degrees of dur. at .05 lift. 110 degree lobe seperation and .477/.480 lift. they put the old used chain and gearset back in.
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