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  #1  
Old 04-20-2003, 03:49 PM
RickyRick RickyRick is offline
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Default gapless rings??

Are gapless rings worth the extra money? Also, who is better? Childs and Alberts or Total Seal? Any opinion on if it's better to get the top ring or the 2nd ring gapless? Thanks.

Rick
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  #2  
Old 04-20-2003, 05:20 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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I think on a street engine probably not. Pretty pricey for a small gain. ON an all out race engine on Alky yes I do feel they are worth the money.
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  #3  
Old 04-20-2003, 08:07 PM
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Less blow by...yes. More power....probably not much, the gain in power is offset by more friction and drag. If I had a money tree, sure why not.
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  #4  
Old 04-21-2003, 01:31 AM
Dart_Swinger Dart_Swinger is offline
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i believe it was car craft that gain 12 hp by changing to total seal rings....just an fyi

Adrian
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  #5  
Old 04-21-2003, 11:22 AM
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I've heard of the top ring fluttering around at higher RPMs and thus letting combustion gas get by. Any truth to that? These rings would be going in a 10.5:1 aluminum headed 451 stroker hopefully making power well into the 500's. It'd see 6,500 RPM or so and I just want to make sure that it wouldn't suffer from any major ring flutter.
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:17 PM
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There maybe a few ponies to be had by small width low tension oil rings. They make great rings both total seal and Childs & Alberts. On a street engine probably not much differance in power.
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  #7  
Old 04-22-2003, 10:27 AM
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I use the total seal rings on my race engine. They have been in service since 1994 and I do race as much as I can up here. About 200 to 225 runs per season. I still only leak down 1% after all that time. Does it give more power? I don't think so but for a bracket racer... consistancy. That wins rounds. For a street engine I am not really sure it would be all that noticable. Quality is good though and I will use them in my new engine.
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:29 AM
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Oh by the way... ring flutter is more of a problem with motorcycle engines. We don't turn enough rpms to make that much difference. 1/16 inch ring does just fine at the speed range that we deal with.
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:35 PM
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i have total seal gapless rings in my 340. hope you have a filer...if not, summit and jegs sells them, pretty good quality really. i have my rings gapped for 150+HP of NOS... here are the specs

Top: .008"
2nd: .0055"
Oil Rails (all) at least .008" (can't really remember)

with this, i believe the 2nd ring will be gapless because the ring itself is a little thinner with an edge or whatever on it for an oil rail (to make it gapless). kinda hard to explain really, but if you go with em, detailed instructions come with them that tell you how much to gap for whatever your gonna run.

when it was runnin (bearing problems), i did notice the oil smelled a lot cleaner when i changed it -- MUCH less blow by, and a noticeable amount of more compression than with chrome moly rings. cold compression, whithout rings seated completely actually, was about 150psi all the way across the board. course, i could adjust my valves to get different numbers, depending on how tight or loose i adjusted the rocker arms.

i'm happy with total seal, and if budget allows, i WILL go with them again (when they're worn). my only problem was the $200 they costed (340 punched 40 over = 4.080" bore)
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  #10  
Old 04-22-2003, 09:19 PM
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Just rebuilt the 318 for my duster. Used childs and alberts on the advice of my engine builder. He claimed that sometimes the total seal rings will rotate so that the gaps align.

For my street engine he didn't feel that there would be a significant gain from gapless rings, but he didn't have a reason not to use them either.
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:33 PM
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just opinion from a mopar newbie, i know in the aircooled volkswagen community where blowby is of major concern, Total Seal is the name of choice in that realm. The guru of VW performance swears by them and wouldnt recommend anything else. just what i have heard along the grape vine, dont take it as the gospel truth. just trying to throw my two cents in there.

caesar
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2003, 10:40 PM
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Default Total Seal !

Sounds like the name says it all ! Longer engine life and consistency ? Why not use them, if done right its one less thing to worry about.
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  #13  
Old 04-23-2003, 12:08 AM
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Here's a question, Could you weld the gap on chrome moly rings after they have been installed on the piston, but before you install the piston in the engine, so they would act like a total seal ring?
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Old 04-23-2003, 09:11 AM
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Interesting concept but not very practical. As the cylinders wear the rings need to move. As for rings lining up... I have always felt that normal rings will line up the gaps after time. I have tore down hundreds of engines and it is amazing how often the gaps are lined up. Rings do rotate in their lands and once the gaps line up I belive the blow by holds them in alignment. I have never seen the total seal rings line up. I got into the total seals from my work with VW engines. They definatly made a big difference there! Like I said before I believe for bracket racing they add consistancy.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2003, 09:50 AM
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i don't know about the rings rotating, unfortunately my engine ran a week before the pickup tube got clogged from sludge in the pan and let the bearings go... the rings were however, in the same place when they went in (detailed instructions are included that show where to position the gaps)

for that one week, i changed my oil every other night (like i do normally on a fresh engine), and it was actually clean, where the LAST time when i was using chrome moly rings the oil smelled like gas...

most problems i seem to have is bearings...for some reason... i'm taking some actions to take care of it though this time... i'm gonna clean out my rocker arm shaft, and run bore brushes through everything on the block and in the head before i even begin to rebuild. i'll clean the crank journals out too (as soon as i have the money to get it)
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  #16  
Old 04-23-2003, 09:59 AM
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Rings seem to rotate in the lands over a long period of time. Again I just have noticed on conventional rings that the gaps seem to be lined up when I pull the engines down. Nothing more to it than a theory.
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2003, 09:59 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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We have used Total Seal in our race engines for several years- We like them very much!

You can get them with a gapless top ring. That's OK for a lower HP engine, lower compression (400HP/ 10 to 1 or less). In theory that should be the best HP/less blowby setup.

For higher HP/Compression applications use a standard moly top ring and the gapless second ring.

You can encounter ring flutter at higher RPMs(above 8000); that can be corrected by using gas ported pistons.

You do need to watch out for excess engine water/oil temp! If you get over 250 degrees the gapless ring will tend to loose tension.

We have only used them is race engines; I don't think I would use them on the street(Don't know why-just a "gut" feel I guess).
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  #18  
Old 04-23-2003, 10:13 AM
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Have you had any problems with gas ported pistons pluging the ports from carbon build up? I suppose normal maitanence would allow you to clean them. I don't like to spin a bracket engine over 7000 so I like big blocks better for that purpose.
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2003, 12:15 PM
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What I was talking about was not welding the ring to the piston, but just welding that gap top and bottom of the rings, and taking a dremel and grinding the welds flat, so the rings can still rotate.
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Old 04-23-2003, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by runinapentastar
What I was talking about was not welding the ring to the piston, but just welding that gap top and bottom of the rings, and taking a dremel and grinding the welds flat, so the rings can still rotate.
no, i don't think that'd be a good idea. when the engine starts, and things start to warm up, the rings have to expand because thats what metal does when it gets hot. if the rings have no place to go, or the gaps are too small, they will break, then you'll have giant scars in your cylinder. not only that, but welding changes the characteristics of the metal. the strength and heat disipation will also be changed. that could probably lead to unwanted effects...such as broken rings and screwed up cylinders...

you COULD try though...but i really don't think it'd be a good idea.
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  #21  
Old 04-23-2003, 03:30 PM
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It was just a thought, just a what if deal I completely space that enginge's expand. brain fart, and now its starting to stink lol
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  #22  
Old 04-23-2003, 11:02 PM
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Default Sanborn

In your opinion, would running gapless rings on a street motor ; 400hp , cause excessive water and oil temp that can lead to the rings loosing tension ? Also, what happens when they do loose tension ? Anything permanent, or just let the motor cool off ?
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  #23  
Old 04-23-2003, 11:40 PM
Challenger Challenger is offline
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It funny how on this board that there are people that like them but on another Mopar board there is some that are having oil problems with them. They are having blue smoke coming out there tailpipes after installing the Total Seal Gapless Rings and it will not go away until changing out the rings. The topic is only about 3 days old so you should be able to find it.
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  #24  
Old 04-24-2003, 12:09 AM
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Let me say this about that!

I use Total Seal rings and have for 9 years, No blue smoke, no bearing problems, no blow by and about 2% leakage at worst.

All rings rotate,Total Seal included. Depending on the rings installed they, all take a different honing pattern for proper break in.

When rings get to hot they become anealed due to excessive heat, if this happens they are done, you can actually take a ring and twist it into an S, Try it next time you tear down an engine.

1972Roadrunner, about your bearing problems, are you running NOS?

jn
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  #25  
Old 04-24-2003, 12:25 AM
moparman318 moparman318 is offline
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Default Just a thought about welding

The machinist at my work was bending bars straight with nothing more that 3 or 4 seconds of the oxy torch on one spot. as the heat hit the metal it expanded at the point of application, which pushed the two sides apart. Course that was with 1"-1 1/4" solid stock. He had to get it with in ten thousands I belive. So weling on a piston would sure bend the hell out of it and you would end up with some totally screwed pistons. Wish I could complement on rings but I have no experience there.
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Old 04-24-2003, 10:30 PM
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i do HAVE nos hooked up, minus the ign wires for the jacobs NOS mastermind, and the fuel cell... never used it yet though, motor hasn't had a chance to break in so i CAN use it...unfortunately.

as for the smoking with total seal rings, the tech guy told me over the phone for a street motor, you DON'T want the low tention oil rings, they only have 5 or 6 lbs of tension. so i got the gapless with regular 3 piece oil rings, and i haven't had a problem with smoke when the motor was runnin.

to give y'all an idea, i still have a cross hatch on the block, and the machinest only hot tanked it! it only ran a week, but i was happy with the performance of the rings...oil pressure is another issue . i had great compression, and very little blow-by, as well as no smoke...

if i had another engine, total seal rings would be in it
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Old 04-25-2003, 11:57 PM
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As far as sprayed street engines go, if you aren't spraying more than 150 horsepower or so, a plasma moly ring will hold up. The trick to using them is to have the machinist use a very fine hone--you do not really want to be able to see a definate crosshatch, just a very slick bore with some very fine small hone tracks in it. Make sure the engine is torque plate honed, and that the bore is not much more than .0005" tapered or out of round with the head installed and torqued to spec (or torque plate). If you use forged pistons, gap @ .003" per every inch of bore your engine has for maximum seal, .0035" per every inch to play it a little safer. If all of that is done, and done properly, plasma moly rings will seat instantly. Also remember when fitting any ring to deburr anything you can see, especially the filed ends of the rings. Also, cleanliness is next to godliness.

Sorry I can't comment on the gapless deals, I have no experience. I have heard others say that they have flutter issues when using non gas-ported pistons and spin high, but everyone here seems to like them pretty well.
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Old 04-26-2003, 12:13 AM
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hchris, we have not had any problems with carbon on our race pistons. But, we are roundy-round people. Have one engine with about 2600 laps on them-no problems! Our gas porting is done above the top ring land- not in the piston top.
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  #29  
Old 04-26-2003, 12:34 AM
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Hum... That is different. Sounds like a pretty neat approach. Do you do that yourself or do you buy them like that? Any pics? I know those things on the fairgrounds are a different breed, but I have never heard of that. What class do you race? I went once, and I may have seen you there.
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