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  #1  
Old 05-12-2003, 12:05 AM
strange246 strange246 is offline
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Question '69 440 in a '72 Demon?

I have a 72 demon /6 and i'm thinking about putting a '69 440 in it, I'm also thinking a 4-speed, not sure which one to look for? How much work will it be to make this work? serious fab work or fairly bolt-on?
the 440 is running but in need of a basic rebuild, they want $800 for the whole motor carb-oil pan, does that sound about right price wise? i was thinking about using a crate 380hp, 360 but this seemed a better option! any ideas or opinions welcome!
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  #2  
Old 05-12-2003, 12:51 AM
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Schumaker makes a mount for this.

I'd stay away from the 4 speed idea. I've done it, and it's a lot of work. A well prepped auto, will break less parts in the driveline, and perform very well.

The floor modifications are a lot of welding and cutting. The pedal stuff is a bolt in. Best plan would be a parts car, if it is the way you want to go.(again, I wouldn't go that way if it were me)

800 usd seems a little steep. I just sold a 69 440 maganum for 650 usd. Complete from carb to oil pan.

If your's isn't a tnt/comando/magnum, then 800 is too much.

If you're doing a rebuild anyway, go with a 451. 400 blocks are almost worthless, grab a forged 440 crank at a swap meet.

If you get the right year of 400 it wil have the 452 casting heads, which are arguably the most desirable big block head.

You'll have all your core parts for about 500. And when it's done, it's a little easier to fit in there than a 440.

Not much, but a little
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Old 05-12-2003, 02:19 AM
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I'm with Dave on the price, too much money. A rebuildable 440, pre '74, goes for $250 or so from salvage yards around here. He is also right about the 451 being the easier installation. Air cleaner height and brake booster/valve cover clearance mostly. Pistons are a little higher priced and there is some work to the crank that wouldn't be done on a 440. The 451 will cost a few bucks more but will be a little quicker due to the lighter pistons and will sit in there virtually hassle free.
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Old 05-12-2003, 01:58 PM
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I would just go with the 69 440 go through it, buy the shumacher headers and mounts, build a 727 with a good converter. The 440 bolts inj just a easy as the 400 with the shumacher stuff. I have a 440 Duster so I know. The 451 will do better at the track, maybe. All in all its the same motor. Unless your drag racing go with the 440 69 engine.
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  #5  
Old 05-12-2003, 02:28 PM
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Dave 571: what years and or models have the 452 castings?
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Old 05-12-2003, 02:49 PM
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'76 - '78 had the 452's

Any '71 - '76 BB had the 346's which are basically the same as the much loved 452's.

It was always a mystery why people love the 452's and hate the 346's.

I would take a 346 or 452 over a 906 or 915 any day. Much better flow potential, easier to port, and cheaper.

my 2 cents
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Old 05-12-2003, 02:54 PM
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SO I guess I have the 346, wich are basically the same as a 452?
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Old 05-12-2003, 02:56 PM
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76 to 78 sounds right to me

There are some flow charts for head castings in the article"cylinderheads part I"


It can be found at www.moparmusclemagazine.com


The added benefit of the newer castings(452) over the older(906) is that they are already prepped for unleaded fuel. Installation of hardened seats is not required, unles the old seats are damaged
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  #9  
Old 05-12-2003, 06:06 PM
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you would probably enjoy the car more with a hot small block in it. you will be on the road that much quicker. you could almost get a small block in there by accident, then any other mods (tranny/rear, etc...) you could make slowly and drive it in the meantime...my 2cents
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  #10  
Old 05-12-2003, 07:19 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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People...its not that hard. If you had all the parts you could do it in a weekend easy. So you have to put a different tranney in it, big deal. I am almost certain the tranney cross member stays the same....its not that hard.

You are going to pay several thousand dollars for a crate motor 360 but dont want to spend a weekend with the 440 and spend half of that and make more power? I will trade you some of my time for some of you money....lol
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  #11  
Old 05-12-2003, 07:29 PM
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The swap itself isn't hard...it's the $$ to upgrade the rest of your ride to make it live w/ the extra torque of the 440. Would have to be done w/ a 360 anyway.

I agree that the extra time to go to the 440 (which because he had a /6 originally would probably not end up being much different) he should go w/ the 440.

I also agree that the B in lieu of the RB would be the way to go as it would fit SO much nicer and be easier to work on. Believe me, my buddy has a '69 Cuda w/ a 440. Want to change plugs...pull the motor. Not sure if the B would make it any easier, but it must help some.
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  #12  
Old 05-12-2003, 08:15 PM
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I agree that you will make more power with the big block, but not for half the money. I would never suggest any crate motor to anyone, I was thinking more along the lines of him starting from scratch. but even if he went with the crate, what does it cost? 3 grand? try building a 440 the right way for that.

I also cannot possibly see how this swap can be done in a weekend. I swapped in a 440 for my 318 in my charger (much easier than what we are talking about here in this thread) There is just no way to forsee every thing you will need and have it all there when you turn the first wrench. let's not forget parts gathering either. there were plenty of a body's with sb motors so finding at least some of what you need at the junkyard is possible. Not so for the BB. I wont' say it is not very very doable, because it is, just not easy, and I don't want strange to get the impression that he can just toss it in there and call it a day. same goes for the sb too.

I love the big block motors, and for me, I would do the big block everytime, but it is not for everyone. IMHO, you don't need that much motor to get a duster to move real fast. my point was that the car would be more enjoyable with the sb. better handling, change plugs without an engine hoist.
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  #13  
Old 05-12-2003, 08:29 PM
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Build yourself a hot little 360 for that Duster.
You'll appreciate the way it will corner.

That said, if you're sold on a big block, do what
everyone's saying and go with the low-deck
block. Advantage? You can use $100 Hedman
B-body headers instead of the $400-500
A-body/B-engine specific headers.

Either route, go with the 727 auto and GOOD converter.
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  #14  
Old 05-12-2003, 11:24 PM
strange246 strange246 is offline
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Thanks guys, I havn't made any firm decisions on it yet, the motor work is still a couple months away anyhow, but I think I will keep it an automatic (727) , I still have to weld in a new trunk floor and rear frame rails (ROTTED) after I finish rebuilding the front end....dkn1997@aol.com why would you never suggest a crate motor? the 380hp crate 360 for $3500 seems like a good deal?
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  #15  
Old 05-12-2003, 11:41 PM
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do a search on this site for "crate motor" many members have had problems with the mopar crate motors....even if you had no problems with one, it is a compromise. they have to put together a package for the masses, so how can it possibly be the absolute best for YOUR car?

It may cost more to build it locally (if you are considering a crate, then you probably do not plan on assembling your own at this time) but in the end, you get a motor with what YOU want in it, a cam matched to your car/converter/rear gears, etc.... and most importantly, a face to face relationship with the guy who actually turned the wrenches on your motor. and if you have a problem with the finished product, or just a question, you will get more out of the local guy than whoever is manning the phones at MP at that moment.
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  #16  
Old 05-12-2003, 11:49 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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when I was in High school and on a high school budget I built a 72 dart. It had 440 with 11.5 cr pistons, mopar purple shaft camshaft .590 lift. Torker 2 intake and 850 carb.
fender well headers, 727 with shift kit and 3500 stall convertor, 4.56 gear posi 8 3/4 rear end....

Tied the frame together and roll bar in it. Went 11.2s and found a huge vacuum leak over the winter then sold it for college money. I would guess I had 5k in the car total...well maybe a little more but alot of stuff was swap meet stuff....

I have alot of inexpensive bb parts if your intersted. I have .590 cam, lifters, push rods, and adjustable rockers will make you a good deal on them.

With the fenderwell headers changing plugs is a breeze, who cares about cutting the fenderwells its not a show car anyways, concourse style. I would guess for 2500 you can build a good big block that will run circles around a 3500 dollar 380hp 360. Headers will cost a little more but that is it brotha....get it done and dont think to long..... think long, think wrong
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  #17  
Old 05-13-2003, 12:01 AM
strange246 strange246 is offline
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Thanks, Kevin I think you just convinced my wife!
This same guy is selling 3, 440's, I'm new to the mopar scene, which 440 would be more desirable for power? a stock '69, or he also has I think a 73 & 74 for a little less $$...Also I'm going to use fiberglass fenders and hood, as mine are rusted pretty good, and It'll save a good bit of weight, so i think fenderwell headers won't be a problem!
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  #18  
Old 05-13-2003, 12:52 AM
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Just got through with the swap. Depends on how much homework you do. I put my 440 in in a weekend. I am very pleased with the swap. Some things you have to plan for:
steering
headers
tranny
cooling
mounts
big block dart just about covers it all. Schumacher mounts are overpriced. Get a good welder and fab your own. Took me an afternoon, and $3 worth of steel to do mine. Depends on how handy you are. I can change the plugs in the car no problem.
Don't be intemidated by what people tell you. Because of header choice I will have trouble with the starter, but it wasn't much easier with my 340 headers. Poo on a 383. might as well be a 340. Go for it man, plenty of good help out there. Theres lots of bragging rights with doing it yourself.
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  #19  
Old 05-13-2003, 02:32 AM
George G. Leverette George G. Leverette is offline
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Big blocks in A-bodies are mostly for conversation forget that torque crap, the only 440 worth having is the 69, the thin wall casting motors made about 220 HP not much more than a 318. The guys that suggest a 360 motor are also pipe dreaming or whatever the choice. The thinwall 360s can be bored no more than 20 over then they are heavy paper weights, seen any 74 or earlier 360s around lately? I put my 440 in over night but it took 6 monyhs or more to get it on the road then another year to get it right. A RB will not fit under the hood with our denting the hood brace, almost touches the master cyl, 1\8" clearance on the pasenger side, headers are very expensive and they gotta be big if performance is the game, needed K-member, tranny, drive shaft, torsion bars, cooling system, no room in the engine compartment so it runs hot. kickdown linkage and other small items. Take a look at www.bigblockdart.com for the positive side of the big block in A-body.
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  #20  
Old 05-13-2003, 10:08 AM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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the 74, 440 will be fine. Dont believe all that thin wall bologna you are hearing. there was a really good thread on here about that being a hoax. You may be better off making elephant ear to mount it, but you can buy stock 440 A body motor mounts too. They would be the same as 383s which came in the cars so thats no big deal.

As far as the 74 not having any power, who cares your probably gonna change cams anyways. Yes it will be down on compression but just get a motor in it get it running and then worry about it next year. For the non believers....... I took my 1974 440 outta my car this year, it has stock cast pistons with about 8:1 compression. I ran .590 mechanical cam, 452 heads, pump gas through 983 cfm BG carb, torker 2 intake, manaul valve body transmission, 4.56 gears.....ran 10.59 in a 2800lb car with no power adders. I even had the bone stock pistons in it.

As for the 383 or 400s fitting that much better, I dont buy it. How much shorter are they? 1/4 inch? They are a tad narrower, I ran my stock located master cylinder, I did put manual steering on it though which will make things much better.

Since your putting fiberglass parts on it, a mild 440 with good convertor and tranney and decent matched gears.....this car will easily see very low 12s more like high 11s on pump gas with open headers and with some traction. And you will have less than 5k in the whole car, not counting the pretty parts of it. There was a set if fenderwell headers on this board in the classified section.

Can a small block make more power than this motor? Sure it can with enough money spent on it. Hell my buddies SBC makes alot more power than my new alky injection 440. He only has 358 cubic inches too. Its all about how much you want to spend.

What ever you do, just make sure you have the combo correct. The only reason I got those type of times outta the car was becuase everything matched, was set up for running in a certain power band and got everything outta it. This goes for which ever motor you choose.

If ya lived closer I would sell ya that pump gas 440 for a good deal.....the one that ran 10.59s in my 2800lb car is just sitting on the garage floor looking for a home.
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  #21  
Old 05-13-2003, 11:35 PM
strange246 strange246 is offline
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Kevin, you said to get stock A-body 383 mounts, but to use stock mounts I'd have to swap K-Member correct? I'd rather use the Shumacher(sp?) mounts, or fab my own...seems easier....and what exactly is an elephant ear? this is my first mopar and I've heard the term before but I never knew what it was.....
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Old 05-13-2003, 11:50 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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I hear good things about that schumachers so that may be the way to go. Elephant ears are plates that go between your waterpump and go down the the frame rails where they are fastened. Someone on here should have a pic of them.

I made my own mounts on my dart wasnt very hard didnt take too long.
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Old 05-14-2003, 11:32 PM
strange246 strange246 is offline
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Hey kevin, drop me an Email at strange246@attbi.com and let me know what you want for those parts!
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  #24  
Old 05-15-2003, 01:28 AM
George G. Leverette George G. Leverette is offline
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Finding a set of "stock" big block A-body mounts is asking for a miracle, any big block mount will fit if the K-member is modified.
The Schumacher spool mounts requires the spool to be drilled below the original position and the supplied bolt used to install the engine. Elephant Ears are for drag racing only, with the engine solidly mounted to the frame something has to give and its the weakest point at any given situation. If this is a drag only car then 590 cam and 456s with ears will be OK. just keep it on the trailer until race time. Small blocks in A-bodies is the perferred way to have a high performance car that will provide street\strip duty and stop and handle.
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  #25  
Old 05-15-2003, 01:30 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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Strange, what exact parts do you need or want. I am leaving for the track in a few minutes so I wont be back until monday. Email me at mywork
garcekr@dhfs.state.wi.us
I will reply monday morning with any questions you ask....have a good weekend.
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