354 & pro stock hemi article in Hot Rod Mag

[rat roaster]

My chevy neighbor couldnt wait to show me the 354 hemi article in his Hot Rod mag . This chevy orientated mag said that the chrysler engineers were so in love with the new LS1 chevy that they are modeling the 354 after it.Also the pro stock hemi article slams the old and new hemi,and they did mention Chrysler did not invent the hemi and that their beloved corvett builder (duntov) may have built the first hemi head and put it on a flat head Ford.The valves on a flat head ford are in the block like a briggs and stratten,just doesnt seem to resemble the hemi head to me ,maybe in shape but not on the flow through valve lay out design. With chevy propaganda like this no wonder the GM boys are so screwed up. They did say though that the 354 would be installed in a rear wheel drive ,Intrepid and some LH models ,plus a Charger and would be offered in the 2002 trucks.

[moeflo]

I saw the stories. A joke. Lets see Chrysler copied(implied) the ls-1. inboard/outboard valves vs. inline. Thick iron block vs. non boreable almn. block. Lets see what else do they have in common? NOTHING. If your friend actually believes that crap, Get new friends.

[DartGT66]

The ARDUN heads by Duntov were real hemi heads and converted the flat head to OHV. I'm just no too sure how much older they are than the Chrysler Hemi heads. And for some reason the Corvette did not have Hemi heads despite of mr. duntovs influence. Hemi heads had been used before Duntov in numerous applications in Europe, but Chrysler was the first one to make it a 'brand'. And there was a time when all the Chrysler engines were Hemis. Today the Hemi is only a brand used by Chrysler and it actually have nothing in common with where the name came from.

[moeflo]

BTW, first hemi layout was 1904. Could be off a couple of years, but is close. Sourced from Sir henry Ricardo bio. Mention that to your neighbor, but don't bother enlightening Hot Rod, They hate those sort of FACTS.

[moeflo]

OK, OK,Just one more, and I'm done.
Breakthroughs on LS-1
Y-block
crossbolted mains
valley pan to isolate intake from oil
cam location retained,at front, by specific plate bolted to block, nstead of t-chain cover.
BTW, combustion is dead ringer of W-5

I know, this wil change nothing, but it makes me feel better

[JCNathan]

Gang,

Just a little more info about those "great" GM cylinder heads. The BB Chevy head, commonly called a "splayed valve" head actually originated from the old Chrysler "poly sphere" heads on the old LA engines of the 50s and 60s. Remember that "big" old 1963 318ci yur uncle had. Remember those funny valve covers. Well, Chevy guys, guess what, it was a splayed valve motor!!! So there, I, like Moe, feel much better.

BTW, GM never invented anything new, they, like the Japanese do not have a creative bone in their corporate bodies. Example: Back in the 1930s when Chrysler announced they were developing an all-steel bodied car the engineers at GM's Fisher Body said there is NO WAY you can make a car frame rigid enough without the use of wood!! Who was the first auto company to use 4 wheel hydraulic brakes? Chrysler. Who was the first to mount an engine on rubber to reduce vibration? Chrysler. Who was the first to install disk brakes on a U.S. production car? Chrysler -- well you all get the picture. Who was the first to develop a power antenna? GM. Oh yeah, there good at that kinda stuff. .

Enuf already.

JC

[rat roaster]

I have an article somewhere in my massive pile of chrysler mags that shows the chrysler plant building hemi or as they called them FLOW THROUGH airplane engines for world war 2. What year did the flat head ford v8 come out? What did GM build for our armys in WW 2? Chrysler as I have read seems to have supplied the army with the majority of their stuff for WW2.I agree when you look back Chrysler was the technological leader ,from suspension to engines.But if all you read is Hot Rod mag you will never know better.

[Maxwedge]

Rat roaster you were right. It was a dual v-8(the engines faced each other with a tranny connecting them)
There is an older artical on car-truck.com about the motor. CHrysler is putting it on display in Detroit.
I am writing a letter to Hot Rod blasting them for there lack of professionalism
I would encourage the rest of You to do the same. What follows is the letter I am to send(or most of it, still got to do a little editing)
Dear Yellow Journalists
1st Chrysler Designed a dual V-8 motor HEMI that was to go into a P47 airplane towards the end of World War II. Its soon to be on display in the Walter P. Chrysler Museum. That's one of those places where these people who know things call HISTORIANS work. Clearly people who know things aren't people you deal with often.
2nd Austin was the first manufacturer of a Hemi headed motor. It was a Dual Over Headed cam motor. It was THIS motor that the Mopar engineers looked at and studied not the duntov
3d Designed the FIRST Hemi around 1904 by a Brit named Sir Henry Ricardo. It was this design that Austin used

Ways that your Obvious chevy Bias shows
the flathead for certainly shared no similar mechanical geometry with ANY MOPAR and neither did the duntov heads. but you guys don't like that messy research thing.
You didn't bother to mention that the chevy heads share NO similar parts to the new 354.a dual plug semi hemi has nothing in common with the ls1
You also didn't mention that the Intake or the rest of the fuel delivery system was different. sure it uses a throttle body…big deal, it also burns gas, are we gonna have to call everything a chevy clone now???
You also didn't mention the fact that the LS-1 has MANY similarities to the Old Mopar motors LIKE the use of a 4 bolt per cylinder to hold down the head.
the Y block configuration(on all Mopars since the mid 50's I believe)
the shaft mounted rocker arms.
I bet the new LS1s have a deck height and rod length more similar to the old 340/360/318 than it is to the old 350.
other areas that your obvious chevy bias
You also took every available chance to demean the Mopar by stating it was in some way an off shoot of some chevy thing…Have you EVER mentioned a similarity of a chevy product to a Mopar in the same way…
NOOOOOOO
For Journalists to have ANY form of Integrity you must have a unbiased view…Clearly U guys have more grease underneath your fingernails than you have integrity.
If the Viper and corvette had switched manufacturers which car would be on the top??? because from what I read the vett only beats the viper in comfort and breaking….those are criteria for judging a Lincoln not a sport car.
But since all U are concerned with is a the fantasy land where g.m. designs and develops EVERY good idea. You wouldn't bother with some research.
But since your obviously writing on par with fairy tails and joke books I will start You off on a couple of jokes
HOW MANY g.m. engineer does it take to design a Nascar??
None, because g.m. doesn't do that, they only design stickers(unlike Mopar engineers)
how many g.m. engineers design Prostock motors
None because they are to busy designing windshield wipers
(Unlike Mopar engineers)
Ignorance is bliss and you are the happiest bunch of guys I know


[This message has been edited by Maxwedge (edited May 19, 20

[Gary]

You point out exactly why I dropped a 20+ year subscription to Hot Rod, Car Craft and Motor Trend. Petersen Publications is not only biased, but the current crop of tech writers and editors are incompetent and intellectually dishonest. I've even been tempted to drop HPM since they took it over.

[moeflo]

Maxwedge, The first hemi is documented in the Ricardo book. It wasn't by him. I'll get you the specifics in AM.(My computer is in shop, book in house). Don't send off that stinger till we get all this dead nuts. Wouldn't want anything to be less than accurate. If it is, they might offer you a job.
While we're venting, there is one more thing I've got to add, about these magazines.
First the disclaimer: I admire Bill Jenkins, it's not about him.
The 66 chevy II A/S of Grumpy's has been referred to, in these rags, as"world-beater"
Occasionally, this damn car still shows up in ads, or history related articles. This car is near worshiped around Peterson publishing. QUIZ How many nat. events did it win? ANSWER none. His ticket was punched by Jere Sthal's Belvedere AT EVERY DAMN RACE!! See if you can find any acknowledgement of that Plymouth in any of those books. Gee, I feel better.

[moeflo]

I can spell Stahl, sometimes.

[Maxwedge]

Guys I think Im gonna eat some crow on this one.
I dont see in the artical where they mention the mopar Hemi being related to a duntov design...I bought said magazine a few weeks ago and hadnt looked at it since. I read your responces at work(without said magazine in hand)and well I obviously let passion rule more than my brain so I think You could see yours truely in a magazine with my big mouth...oh well it happens I guess
anyway
at least the stuff about the corvett vs the viper were true statements..
M-wedge

[This message has been edited by Maxwedge (edited May 20, 2000).]

[moeflo]

It's OK, cause we can still put sugar in all thier gas tanks,,,,I mean, that's Ok,,,right?

[moeflo]

Maxwedge, First hemi engine seems to be
the "Belgian Pipe engine" 1905. Had seperate intake and exh cams. Steep valve angles, sort of like the shovel head Harleys.
The book I was trying to recall, is
"The Ricardo Story" Gent's name was Sir Harry Ricardo. Avaliable through SAE.

[Maxwedge]

I had a book that was on the hemi and its development and in it they had said that Chrysler studied a british design from austin healy or austin martin(cant remember which of them). And the 1904 date seemed corrrect.
but I guess i still made a goob of myself..
Just seems Mopar almost always gets the shaft.
anyway
maxwedge..

[Les Binkhorst]

That fine British marque you refer to is Aston Martin!

[beepbeepsrule]

The Chevy bias is everywhere. Three times now different goobers have asked me what engine is in my '69 Roadrunner and when I tell them it is a 383 they said "Oh, cool, a stroked 383 CHEVY". Puke. They look at me as if I don't know what I am talking about when I try to explain the truth. Jeez. Once they see it go down the track I am sure they still think "Wow, you sure can get a Chevy motor haulin' butt"!!!

------------------
1969 Roadrunner
1999 Ram 1500 QC Sport

[Maxwedge]

I think It would have been funny for you, as they were making that stupid "383 Chevy Comment" to have nodded and opened the hood, to let them check it out...and see the funny look that crosses there face when the realize it isnt a Shivy. ahhahhahaha A friend of mine had a fast early 70's olds with aford 351 in it...He always pushed it for all it was worth and told people it was a prototype "Chevy Motor"....hahahahahahah funny stuff
Maxwedge