Anyone running two radiators???

[tsteiner61]

The Dart is still running too hot.

Right now I have a stock 340 style 22" x 22" radiator in there and with the weather getting warm I am still running 225 degrees. I have retarded my timing from 18 BTDC initial down to 12 with no noticeable difference. Also added the Red Line water wetter with no difference.
I was thinking of just getting one of these real big 31" 4-core crossflow jobs, but it looks like WAY too much work and modifications to make it fit. So what I was thinking was there's alot of room between the grill and the radiator mounts, enough for a second radiator with very few mods.
So my question is, if I just run hoses from one tank to the next, will the increased surface area help my cooling problem, or am I just on drugs here.
Any input appreciated.

[dave571]

I'm quite interested in what you get on this thread, as I have been thinking of the same thing on my van.

I'm wondering if we're on the same drugs

[amxauto-x]

I'm wondering if we're on the same drugs

Must be, anybody who'd own a van like THAT one!!! Oh, hold it! I do!!!!!

[dwc43]

It wont work. One it wont fit. Two you will pull the hot air from one to the other. Three you wont be able to pull enough airflow through them. Why not just solve your problem and be done with it. The cooling system is the simplest system on a car, but so many have so much trouble here and I dont know why.

What are you running for a fan,stat,pulley's, shroud, and fan distance from rad, and how much of fan sticks out in the open air if you run a shroud? Is the rad clean inside? Will it flow through all the tubes? Did you bleed all the air out of the system? Most common reason for over heating is an air pocket in the block or heads. HAs the system ever been flushed? What rpm are you turning while its overheating? Is the carb jetted right? Is the carb big enough for the application? All of this will make a difference when it comes to overheating.

[Mister Fiberglass]

Have you ever thought of a mutiple chamber rad ? THAT can be the cure to all ills BUT I think that there us something really wrong with your combo somewhere.

Does your water temp EVER come down to the temp that the stat is?

At what type of driving does that 225 take place or is it in every type of of driving?

[FASTDARTCHESTER]

bad t-stat?

[tsteiner61]

OK. Maybe you guys can help me out here to see where my problem lies. I'll run down all the info I have so far.

If outside temp is below 70 degrees:
Highway driving only...temp stabilizes around 200
Stop and go...temp climbs slowly (30 mins.) to about 215

If outside temp is above 70 degrees add 10 to those.

I'm pretty sure the t-stat is good because I can see the temp rise when I'm warming up the car, then go slightly above 165, then come back down to 165 for about 5 minutes. Only when I start driving does the temp go up. If I just start the car and let it idle, it will eventually reach 210, but it takes forever (like an hour).

The radiator is a 2-core 22X22 stock 340 style radiator. The fan is a 16" electric from Summit rated at 2340cfm with stock shroud. The engine is 408 stroker. No coolant leaks. Level and pressure are good. Water wetter has been added with no improvement.

The bottom line here is I could go with a big a$$ 4 core, but I would have to start cutting those plates that are attached to the frame and probably move the battery to the trunk, which I don't really want to do. That's why I'm looking for a better option. I saw a BeCool aluminum in Summit that looks like a direct fit, but what I'm wondering is if the actual cooling surface area is just insufficient for engine size.???

[mopar_nocar]

does the fan pull enough (i know what your cfm rating is, but is it really pulling that much?) i guess its just me being old-fashioned, but i like the direct drive fan on the water pump parisistic loss and all?

sean

[dwc43]

IF the electric fan is inside the stock shroud then that wont work. It can stall the air flow. Not sure if that's enough flow. I would leave the stock shroud on and put the fan in front of the rad and make it ush through. That way the shroud can help direct air flow a little for ya.

Have you checked for a bad pressure cap too? I run a 20 to 22 cap on some to raise the boiling point of the watter. Dont remember the numbers but for every point of pressure the boiling point of coolant goes way up. Some times that's all is needed is a good cap. Dont think a new rad will be needed if you can solve the problem you have. Really need the info I ask for before though to make a rel good guess at it.

[runner4404spd]

check to make sure engine is not running lean as that will contribute to higher temps. also you retarded the timing i would bring it back up as that didn't seem to be your problem. what kind of fuel are you runningin there? try a can of octane boost or put in race gas. if this has no effect then go back to rad. do you have a/c? i am running 2 12in puller fans and have no problems running a built 440. run 2 10 in puller as opposed to the one 16 puller you'll get better results. get rid of shroud and mount fans as close to the rad as possible (almost touching) is you alternator putting out enough juice to keep the fan going? i am running a 120amp unit off a late model magnum engine.

[Geezer]

1. Is the fan wired correctly?? If it's not, it's running backwards!
2. Does the shroud on the fan cover the entire core? If not, any core area outside the shroud does not have enuf air going thru it. The shroud should be sealed to the face of the core.
3. IS the fan motor wired thru a relay w/ heavy enuf wire to supply the volts necessary to attain the fan CFM rating?
4. You say the rad is a "stock style 2 core 340". Is it new, or from a "prior life"? As radiators get old, the integrity of the solder joints w/ the fins and core tubes diminishes, and the heat rejection capabilities are reduced.
5. The size of the engine alone, 340 vs 400+, may be the reason the rad won't handle the BTU'S.
6. I would have a rad shop check to see if there's combustion gases getting into the cooling system. It's a simple check w/ a liquid that changes color if gases are present.
7. Any overdrive or underdrive pulleys being used?

Bottom line is:
Cooling system, when right, should hold the coolant temps to ambient plus 100*.
Temps should be +/- 5* of the stat value.
Temp drop from top to bottom tank should be in the range of 20*.

Back under my Belvedere....

[dave571]

Some problems aren't solved easily dwc43.

I have a 4 core rad, the biggest a van could come with(and yes it's new), I've tried 3 different waterpumps(different impellers) two different configurations of electric fan, a clutch fan, a solid fan, a flex fan, and different combinations of the fans.

Also 2 different hi performance thermostats, 3 different temp ranges of premium stat, and 3 different custom modified versions of my own.

I've even swaped out the hipo engine for a smogger. The hi po stays cool in the truck, and the smogger runs hot now that it's in the van.

I guess some cooling problems aren't easily solved, after all.

[jelsr]

It will increase the cooling capacity, but the plumbing will be a pain in the fanny. You will have to go from the stat hsg to the top of the front one, then from the bottom of the front one to the top of the second one, then the bottom of the second one to the pump inlet. Then you need to seal the area between them so all the air is drawn through both. This being said, I question the need. There must be a problem in the system somewhere. For instance I pull my circle burner with my old p/u in this sunny southwest Ks. heat w/o problems and it's a stock 3 row, clutch fan, and a tinny square shroud.

[6 packin]

I still think its running lean. Whats the plugs look like? You cant imagine what a lean condition can do to a engine? If its a Holley carb or type, your in for about a 20-30 min job for a jet change. You need a 26 inch radiator, one from a V-8 E or B body is what you need, it will fit with minor triming. It will help alot, also running a tranny cooler in line before it enters the rad will help also, your rad will not be tring to cool 2 things thats running 200+ deg.

[Mister Fiberglass]

did I miss this ??.......what temp is your stat?

[1972roadrunner]

Originally posted by jelsr
There must be a problem in the system somewhere. For instance I pull my circle burner with my old p/u in this sunny southwest Ks. heat w/o problems and it's a stock 3 row, clutch fan, and a tinny square shroud.

i agree. i'm in the same southwest Ks heat (Garden City!!) and my roadrunner never got above 170 with a 160* stat in it last summer when it was actually going . my brothers 440 never gets over 190 either, and i think it's got a 180* stat in it. the car is all black too!

both have 4 core radiators, MP aluminum water pumps, and stats from advance auto parts. anytime we have a problem with overheating, we take the radiator to a shop here called radiator city, and have him flush it and clean it real good to be sure. we check the stat, and if thats not it, then we check the plugs and try to get it taken care of. another thing we check, is temp with our hands. if it really feels hot, we know theres a prob. if not, we check the guage. on thing about the mechanical guages, if the cover gets broken and the wire exposed, it could read wrong if it's next to the exhaust or block (which they usually are).

good luck!

hey jelsr, email me at tmezzenger@hotmail.com i wouldn't mind checkin out your oval track car . my dad still has a late model in the storage shed .

[Mills]

6 packin is right - a 26" rad will fit. With Cooling, it's the X-section that does it...not the # of cores. I think 4 core rads are a waste as once that air reaches the 4th core, it is heated to about the same temp as the coolant. The mods would be limited to a minor triming of the rad yoke.

Not sure if this was mentioned, but straight water works a lot better then 50/50 mix. Add a bottle of corrossion inhibitor thou.

Increasing the pressure, tranny cooler....all these should make it run 180. If not...your lean.

[1972roadrunner]

Originally posted by Mills
Not sure if this was mentioned, but straight water works a lot better then 50/50 mix. Add a bottle of corrossion inhibitor thou.

if he ran strait water and hit 225* he'd be really close to boiling over! the 50/50 mix allows the water to hit 230 and NOT boil. it also works the OTHER way...it can hit a much lower temp in the winter and not freeze. if it DID freeze, the block, heads, and whatever else had water in it would be trash as it'd be cracked from the expansion of water when it freezes...

the ONLY time i ever run with strait water is after a fresh rebuild for a couple of days in the garage. i do that only because anti-freeze eats the hell out of bearings. if there is a leak from a bad seal or somthing, strait water won't hurt it. change the oil a couple of times to get rid of the water after repairing a leak, and no problem. not only that, but if for any reason it needs to come apart, strait water won't make such a mess on the floor as antifreeze.

[6 packin]

Originally posted by 1972roadrunner


if he ran strait water and hit 225* he'd be really close to boiling over! the 50/50 mix allows the water to hit 230 and NOT boil. it also works the OTHER way...it can hit a much lower temp in the winter and not freeze. if it DID freeze, the block, heads, and whatever else had water in it would be trash as it'd be cracked from the expansion of water when it freezes...

the ONLY time i ever run with strait water is after a fresh rebuild for a couple of days in the garage. i do that only because anti-freeze eats the hell out of bearings. if there is a leak from a bad seal or somthing, strait water won't hurt it. change the oil a couple of times to get rid of the water after repairing a leak, and no problem. not only that, but if for any reason it needs to come apart, strait water won't make such a mess on the floor as antifreeze.

Nope, Mills is right! straight water will cool better than any mix of anti freeze, all anti freeze, etylne glcol, a petrolum based (dynosour stuff) chages the vapor pressure. Isnt it funny how things that boil fast, takes longer to freeze?(like achol) Or things the freeze faster, is hard to reach its vapor pressure (boil) Nothing I mean nothing transfers heat better than H20! Heat always travels from Hot to cold, what looses heat in one place, gains it in another....have you ever seen somone make Homeade Ice cream?

[Mills]

Under pressure (not sure what pressure his system is @) water will not boil @ 225. You can have water @ 500 F and still be a liquid....lose ANY pressure thou...watch out! If the system is @ 18 psi....straight water would not boil until about 255 F @ sea level. Water boils @ 212 F @ sea level @ atm. pressure - 0 psi(g). In a vacumm you can boil it @ room temp. Rule of thumb only, as some would spit out before 255 F.

Water has a much better specific heat value then Glycol, which allows it to absorb more heat then glycol.

As far as freezing......it's just common sense to drain some water and add glycol before the cold season. I do it every year. And just because the water freezes, doesn't mean the block and heads will be trash...that's why they invents frost plugs. I don't recommend taking the chance thou.

[Mills]

forgive me again for not paying attn.....do you have a overflow tank? If you spit it out and don't collect it, you will have even less coolant to take heat away.

[6 packin]

Then melting point can be looked at as a cooling process, and frezzing can be a heating process??? Thats correct. Boiling point is the tempature where the vapor pressure of a liquid reaches the the pressure above the liquid. In one atmosphere (0 gage 0r 14 psi absolute) water boils near 212 deg F. add more pressure, you raise the boiling point porprtionaly to that pressure.....like rad caps. I can dig a formula up if anyones wants?

[turbododge]

There are two separate cooling issues here. One is the 200/210 and the highway and the other at idle.

If you run hot on the highway, it is almost always a lack of radiator capacity if all the other parts are good. I would ditch the two core radiator and get an aluminum as a first choice, 4 core copper as a second choice. This will increase the heat dissipation capacity of the radiator, and at highway speeds you will have plenty of air movement to get the heat out.

The second problem is the idle, low speed overheating. The bigger radiator will probably not help this, and if it is an aluminum, it may make it worse, as they require more airflow to get the heat away. The electric fan will not cut it, from what I have seen, and I tried a lot of them. To get the maximum airflow to go with increased radiator capacity, you want to get a good shroud and seal it well to the radiator. Use a 5 or 7 blade (I found no difference in cooling) clutch fan and shim the fan on the clutch so that only 1/4 to 3/8 inch of fan is inside the shroud (this is very important-it gave me a 10 degree change over the old 50/50 in the shroud rule). Use an air conditioned car water pump-that is the small 6 blade impeller. Get a water pump/fan pulley that is the diameter used on air conditioned cars. It will be much smaller than the non-air version and will spin the pump and fan at 1.3 times the crank speed. THE PULLEY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO as it will get the waterpump to the proper pumping speed, and spin the fan at 30% faster speed to get more air through the radiator.

The above is the only way that I could get the twin turbo 340 Challenger to run on the thermostat all the time, even idling in 100 degree heat. I use a two core Griffin aluminum radiator, stock shroud, MP clutch fan (spaced), homemade pulley from two others (it is a location thing) and a NAPA water pump.

[Kevin Garceau]

I switched to Methanol for the year and man I havent even had to turn the fan on yet this year. Although it uses alot of it I would suggest about a 45 gallon tank.

I would first check the guage. Its cheap and obvious. A 4 core radiator may be needed just for the extra capacity that or a good alum. one.....

but I suspect you have air in the system.

[Mister Fiberglass]

Originally posted by Mister Fiberglass
did I miss this ??.......what temp is your stat?

Again?.......... ALSO - how long does it take to get up to operating temp.......from dead-cold ?

[jelsr]

Just a FYI post on some of the aforementioned components. The shroud is supposed to create a low pressure area behind the entire cooling surface of the radiator to induce airflow. If you run a clutchfan (actually a fluid coupler) run lots of blades as they turn slow. If you run direct use a 4 blade with lots of pitch (like the Nascar people do on short tracks) and don't run much faster RPM wise than the engine. The cooling capacity is limited by tube to fin contact, thus the trend for 1"- 1-1/2" tubes. Find and read the post in the Circle Track section by Sanborn on cooling a racing SB, some of the info will surprise you.

[dwc43]

Originally posted by jelsr
Just a FYI post on some of the aforementioned components. The shroud is supposed to create a low pressure area behind the entire cooling surface of the radiator to induce airflow. If you run a clutchfan (actually a fluid coupler) run lots of blades as they turn slow. If you run direct use a 4 blade with lots of pitch (like the Nascar people do on short tracks) and don't run much faster RPM wise than the engine. The cooling capacity is limited by tube to fin contact, thus the trend for 1"- 1-1/2" tubes. Find and read the post in the Circle Track section by Sanborn on cooling a racing SB, some of the info will surprise you.

Nascar has not used an engine driven fan for years now. They are required to run one electric fan that is either on or off by a switch on the dash. No thermostat control fans.

[dwc43]

Originally posted by dave571
Some problems aren't solved easily dwc43.

I have a 4 core rad, the biggest a van could come with(and yes it's new), I've tried 3 different waterpumps(different impellers) two different configurations of electric fan, a clutch fan, a solid fan, a flex fan, and different combinations of the fans.

Also 2 different hi performance thermostats, 3 different temp ranges of premium stat, and 3 different custom modified versions of my own.

I've even swaped out the hipo engine for a smogger. The hi po stays cool in the truck, and the smogger runs hot now that it's in the van.

I guess some cooling problems aren't easily solved, after all.

Yours is a special case. One very restricted air flow. Gets in the front and cant get out due th that dog house. It traps a lot of heat as you know. Run a big tranny cooler and by pass the rad all together. I normally say use both, but you need heat away from that rad. Also go to a 22 lb cap. If you cant find one I can get you one. Mostly a race piece, but it will work here too. I've read too many of your post so I'm sure the a/f mix is right and no vac. leaks too. I know I saw it before, but what fans and pulleys are you running? I'll see if i can help you out too. Be nice if we can solve it too right. There's always an answer out there some where.

[turbododge]

Concerning the clutch, and the appropriate fan. I tested the 5 and 7 blade fans on a MP clutch fan. I used a strobe tach to check the fan speed against the pulley speed. Both the 5 and 7 blade turned within 15 rpm of the pulley, and identical to each other (this was at a temp low enough that the thermal spring was not engaged). The clutch fan did not start to run much slower that the pulley until about 1500 (engine)rpm (2000 pulley) and they slowed down at the same point. At the lower rpm, it would be as good as being solid. If you think of how they work, a clutch fan can exert only a fixed amount of torque, and thus do a fixed amount of work, so if both fans start to release at the same point, they are also moving the same amount of air. I think it is related to the different design of the blades, with the 5 blade being a more modern and efficient design.

[Mister Fiberglass]

All this fan talk is all well and good BUT ..... IMO .........

..........you don't even NEED a fan at cruising speed. The air-flow through the grille and into the rad should be enough to allow for that proper air/heat transfer to take place.