turbo, supercharger, blower slant six

[dartsport1974]

anyone know if there is any forced induction setups for the 225? Really would like to consider this but haven't found anything made for it and really don't have the pocket change to have it custom made

[John Tozer]

I recommend you choose a turbo and do it yourself. The stock exhaust manifold only needs a mounting plate welded onto it for plumbing in a turbo and you can tap the sump yourself to feed oil to the turbo aswell.

Choice of turbo is easy as a cheap one can be had at most Japanese auto wreckers for cheap. I know of someone who used one off a Mazda RX7 and had it blow through a modified 500 Holley.

The stock slant takes to light boost very well and may not necessarily need intercooling.

I have not heard of anybody who sells a purpose built turbo kit for Mopar sixes.

[Dr. Righteous]

Yeah, for the most part, turbo charging MoPars (accept the 2.2s)
is a great undiscovered country. There is no kits avaliable per say. Most turbo setup you hear of are home brews setups.
I recommend you do some reading on the subject.
There are a couple books that are the turbo system designers handbooks

Turbocharging by Hugh Maginnis
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
Both are good.

When it comes to turbocharging, never copy another system, or take 'hearsay' advice. You can invest a bunch of money in something that doesn't perform as well as a stocker. But if you carefully select the correct parts and don't go looking for 1000 HP from a slant6 you can truly build a V8 Camaro eater and get 20+ MPG too.

[dartsport1974]

Ok cool. However would it not be better to try and get a supercharger? From my understanding of them both, superchargers seem to bypass most of a turbos downfalls. I know it'll probably up the price a little but would this not, performance wise, be the best move? Just wondering all I know is basically what you gain from forced induction in general. Also intercooling allows you to turn up the boost safely, does it not. I could probably up the psi a couple pounds if I could get my hands on an intercooler, right? Also what do you think would be a safe psi for the 225 so I can start looking for some turbos/superchargers that are in that range? Thanks for the info.

[Dr. Righteous]

Actually a turbocharger is a far superior and the most efficent method of forced induction.
The only REAL objection is personal preferance. For most people, when you say supercharger they think of a big GM 6-71 roots type blower sticking out of the hood. While these will deliver instant boost they are extremely inefficent. They require power from the engine to produce the boost. It isn't uncommon for a roots blower setup to eat 100 HP!
There are various designs of a roots blower and they have made great strides in efficency, but still they require power directly from your engine before they produce any boost.
A turbo charger uses the hot gasses from your exhaust which are usually wasted. This alone increases overall engine efficency.
Look at it this way, a typical pistons engine is extremely inefficent. It needs heat energy to produce torque. Well, typically only 30% of that heat is used. Most of the heat it makes goes out the exhaust pipe and the rest of absorbed by the coolant system. A turbocharger recovers some of that heat energy to make boost. In a sense it is "free power".
Most car guys think of turbo as a "import tuners" domain and if you want serious power, you go with a big roots type.
That is a huge misconception. Turbochargers are the route to efficent power making. The best way to get more power is to find a way to improve the efficentcy of making HEAT to produce torque.
Turbos do that!

[TrxR]

The advantage of the turbo is that it dont rob power to make power as it just uses waste(the exhaust) to make power. The disadvantage of this is there is more heat generated. Also a turbo will experience some lag where the supercharger will be more instant. Myself I like the idea of a turbo. I wanted to build a twin turbo big block for my Dakota but dont have the fabrication skills or money for the turbos or feul system

[Dr. Righteous]

Actually that is another misconception about turbochargers.
The HEAT that is produced is from the act of compressing the intake air. Roots type superchargers are very inefficent and produce much more compressor related heat than turbochargers do. Most roots type superchargers are limited to 6 or 8 lbs of boost because their inefficencies catch up with them. Intercooling a roots type blower is difficult and usually isn't worth it because of their inherent inefficency.
On the other hands turbochargers can easily produce 20+ lbs of boost before you know if if there isn't a wastegate to keep them in check. That is also a lot of heat, BUT it produce that much boost because of the efficency in which it operates.
If you limit both methods of supercharging to 8 lbs of boost say, and them measure how much extra heat is added by each, the turbocharger would win hands down.

[92whitedak]

I was under the impression that both systems (turbochargers and superchargers) rob power from the engine due to parasitic drag. Due to the laws of thermal-dynanimcs, you cannot create energy from nothing. You can change the rate and force of energy however, but this, as stated, results in heat. With the compressor/impellor ratio of smaller turbos, you aren't really altering the incoming power too much, but the that large r3/r4 turbos, you are looking at an aweful lot of heat. But that isn't the only issue with turbos. You are basically putting a paddle boat blade in the way of your entire exhaust flow, placing an overly high amount of backpressure on your system. Anyone who has ever driven a turbo knows about turbo lag. You can feel it. But what you can also feel is a slight stumble/lack of power right off the bat from trying to get that turbo spinning. Thats why smaller turbos spool up faster. I'm not advocating superchargers. What Dr. R said is right. Its not unheard of to hear about those belt driven superchargers robbing upwards to 100hp. Both systems have there ups and downs. Myself, I'd love a turbo setup, simply due to the adjustability and control you have over the system. For the most part, you probably will never find a pre-fabbed turbo kit for our vehicles so its up to fabricating one. I love that too. Thats an added bonus to me. Twin-turbo'd 408 shooting 400 horses of no2. I'm still on it

I thought about it once, making my own supercharger once. Including a belt-drive air compressor pump. Never got around to doing it because my next BRILLIANT idea hit me. I'm 3/4 of the way complete with rigging up a 50cc 2 stroke with a compressor fin on one side. Essentially everything AFTER the turbo, but elimating the need for the vehicle's exhaust. I've already fabricated the brackets to hold it upright on the inner fender, and the bracket for the fuel reservoir. Still working on an easier method to start it up than having to get out, pop my hood, and pull the cord. I'll make a post about it with pictures when I'm done.

[ehostler]

The ProCharger that has recently been discussed here, produces the same PSI as a turbo, however, the compressed air isn't as hot. The fact is that using the exhaust to drive the impellers does heat up the impellers which in turn provides additional heat to the compressed air. Once you run that through an intercooler, a lot of that heat is removed. They also have intercoolers for the procharger.

As there is much less fabrication required to make the procharger work on the engine, I would go with it instead of a turbo.

[dartsport1974]

Run 3 pullies and the one on the left connect to the motor and the other 2 be double belt pullies to connect the 2 belts and the one on the right be a double pulley also to hold belt to the center pulley and the other to connect with a belt on the motor. The center pulley would create tension constantly. Having a spring to apply pressure. Just an idea.

[92whitedak]

Originally posted by dartsport1974

Run 3 pullies and the one on the left connect to the motor and the other 2 be double belt pullies to connect the 2 belts and the one on the right be a double pulley also to hold belt to the center pulley and the other to connect with a belt on the motor. The center pulley would create tension constantly. Having a spring to apply pressure. Just an idea.

?? I have NEVER been this confused in my life. I'm going to have to write that down so I can read it over and over again.

[dartsport1974]

k I'll re-word it just a sec and I'll post it re-worded

[dartsport1974]

k made a quick pic with directions on it a little bit more laid out so look at that and see if it's anymore clear

[Dr. Righteous]

All likes and dislikes aside, I would say that it would take LESS money and effort to Turbocharge the slant6 rather run a belt driven supercharger.
Lookit, Keep the boost under 8 lbs, and generally you don't need to intercool if your CR is below 9:1.
The Carter single barrel carb will be sufficent to work. Carbed turbocharged setups are less than ideal but they will work as long as the boost isn't to high.
All that is involved is plumbing.
You can probably score a suitable turbocharger from Ebay.

Plenty of room since the engine is slanted to the passenger side of the engine compartment. Both intake and exhaust point the same direction. A easier than adverage turbo project to take on.

I will give you my honest opinion. I am much more impressed with someone who will take on a unconventional project like this than someone that spends thousands restoring his Hemi Cuda.
Most ground breaking inovators started by tinkering in their garage. (like Smokey Yunick)

Like my Tag Line says: "Turbocharge it! Then I'm intersted"

[dartsport1974]

Originally posted by Dr. Righteous
All likes and dislikes aside, I would say that it would take LESS money and effort to Turbocharge the slant6 rather run a belt driven supercharger.
Lookit, Keep the boost under 8 lbs, and generally you don't need to intercool if your CR is below 9:1.
The Carter single barrel carb will be sufficent to work. Carbed turbocharged setups are less than ideal but they will work as long as the boost isn't to high.
All that is involved is plumbing.
You can probably score a suitable turbocharger from Ebay.

Plenty of room since the engine is slanted to the passenger side of the engine compartment. Both intake and exhaust point the same direction. A easier than adverage turbo project to take on.

I will give you my honest opinion. I am much more impressed with someone who will take on a unconventional project like this than someone that spends thousands restoring his Hemi Cuda.
Most ground breaking inovators started by tinkering in their garage. (like Smokey Yunick)

Like my Tag Line says: "Turbocharge it! Then I'm intersted"

K found a turbo from a 92 Eclipse think this would work ok? Asking $250 for it. Also when I'm think of the modem to get what all do I need to make sure I get as far as lines and such go?

[Dr. Righteous]

I have not looked at the numbers needed for a 225 slant6 but a medium size turbo is a Garret T4. Usually these are from $200-$300 in usable condition. You will also need an adjustable wastegate to go with this. You want to limit your boost to 8 lbs and adjust your ignition timing, and other factors to suit the turbo.
You will need to get your hands on a MIG welder and some steel tubing. A good way to mock up your tubing lengths is to get some flexable tubing and bend it to the shape you need and have a shop with a pipe bender (muffler shop)make you a pipe to fit. Also, pick up the books I suggested earlier. They will be invaluable.

[dartsport1974]

k but as far as like the tubing for oil and anything else just want to make sure if I get it I can get the parts from a parts store easy enough or that I get it when I buy the turbo

[dartsport1974]

also been looking at the auctions on ebay is play on the turbo super bad or is there an acceptable amount of play for the turbo? Thanks,
Jared

[turbododge]

As long as you are going to run a reasonable boost level, you could probably take the entire setup off a turbo regal 6 cylinder and only have to fab up the exhaust and intake adapters. Firing order may have to be looked at, but that is pretty minor once all the rest is done.

[dartswinger74]

This is what i was thinking about trying. also if it works on this 2225 the 2 turbos set up this way should work on a 360 right?
What worries me about this setup is what mods are needed to get the carb to work properly

http://www.slantsix.org/articles/tur...bo-article.htm

[turbododge]

I have to agree with you on the carb mods. If you don't really know your carb tuning, it can be very difficult to get any kind of decent driveability. Drag race is easy though. I have done one suck through, and two blow through carb setups, as well as two EFI setups, and with the EFI that is now available, there is no way I would ever consider doing a carb again. My carb setups ran better than 99% of the carb turbos out there (it took years to get there), but there were still some huge compromises that you cannot get around.

[brian phillips]

I have had great results with my mighty demon carb(same carb used on my NA motor). Car idles at 700 rpm and fires up with no touch of the pedal. Runs smooth on highway and not a hint of hesitation when pushed and boost hits(which is very quick).

Turbododge, seems drilling out the powervalve circuits and keeping the jet sizes down really helped things out.

slant six man, I feel the gn turbo would be a good candidate.
If you go with some form of t-4 keep the ar down due to your cubes and not needing to rev hard.

72 cuda twin turbo 408 smallblock,11psi(at least in high,working to get full boost in 1st and 2nd....3.23 gear and 3400lbs
11.15@127 at Bristol mopar show...10's are just right around the corner.

[turbododge]

Yes Brian, staying with small jets and big power valve restrictions help a lot, and a two stage power valve in the primary helps even more. A spreadbore also makes it easier. The compromises I referred to are bit more subtle, and don't show up much on accelleration runs, but under other conditions. The biggest thing that you have to contend with is that if you jet the carb for WOT at full boost (12/14psi in my case) and have the correct mixture there, you are way rich at less than full boost due to the air density reduction of less boost. This gives you a very rich spot at the transition from NA to boost, and can cause a loss of available power and plug fouling. The black smoke is also embarrassing. Very careful driving of a mechanical secondary carb with almost all the richening in the secondaries can help the the situation, but you just cannot get rid of it. One of the other problems I had was one that only appeared in on and off power situations, such as a curvy road. If you are using the carb with the enrichening in the secondaries, and you accellerate hard into boost, and then feather the throttle to corner, often times the secondaries will close, but you will still have boost from the rpm you are at. You go lean and backfire. I never had any damage other than blown off hoses, as it was not under any heavy power, but it sure was irritating. As I said, my carb setups ran very well, compared to most, but I am very picky (anal?) about driveability and it drove me nuts having the shortcomings.

[73challenger360]

http://www.slantsix.org/articles/tur...bo-article.htm
look at this site

[Dart 65]

I'll put in my two cents worth now. From everything I've read, twin turbos on an engine aren't going to do any better than one big turbo. Even if you don't want to get one that was on a diesel truck, some of which are capable of making 30 psi or more, a single turbocharger is going to better better all the way around. It'll also be easier to install with the fabrication that needs to be done. And for God's sake, stay away from that Mitsubishi turbo; go with a regular run of the mill Garret. They're better overall and able to make more power than the smaller Mitsu.

[dartsport1974]

Originally posted by Dart 65
I'll put in my two cents worth now. From everything I've read, twin turbos on an engine aren't going to do any better than one big turbo. Even if you don't want to get one that was on a diesel truck, some of which are capable of making 30 psi or more, a single turbocharger is going to better better all the way around. It'll also be easier to install with the fabrication that needs to be done. And for God's sake, stay away from that Mitsubishi turbo; go with a regular run of the mill Garret. They're better overall and able to make more power than the smaller Mitsu.

K I'd have to agree for the most part, but do the smaller turbos not spin up faster and if so then would two small with a combines output of one of the larger turbos offer the same boost with a faster spin-up rate? I'm pretty sure they would but still asking if someone KNOWS for sure. Yes it would require more fabrications but if your going for the most power as quick (spin-up) as possible this would be the way to is it not? Again thanks everyone for all the info everyone.

[92whitedak]

Yes, you are correct. A smaller turbo generally equals a smaller "spool up time", or time it takes it to be fully spinning and compressing. With a small turbo, you might have it spooled up completely by 2400 rpm. A larger turbo would take generally longer time, perhaps 3100 rpm, but the larger turbo has the capability to deliver more pressure while at the same time, operating at higher ranges with less heat. Why not just put two smaller turbos that equal a large one rather than putting a large one? Simply because when you put a small turbo on one side of the engine, you are still leaving the other side alone, as far as backpressure, and there by resistance, goes. But when you put a turbo charger on both sides (Twin turbos), you are placing backpressure on the whole engine again, not just one side. The upside? The smaller turbos on each side are spooled up so fast, you barely notice the lack of power in the bottom before they are ready to compress your air to their fullest ability. A lot of people find that "piggy-backing" two turbos is a better method to solve this problem. Essentially, you use one side of the exhaust, put a smaller turbo first and then a larger turbo after it. The smaller turbo first spools up faster and helps you out on the low end, while the larger turbo takes a little longer to spool up but helps you out big on the top end. But now concider how much pressure is being placed on that particular side. There will always be a problem. As I said, thermal-dynamics sure are a b!tch. Can't make something out of nothing. You'll always need energy, whether it is being given or taken away, to produce energy.

[92whitedak]

Hah, I just realized that we were talking about an inline six. Damn.

[dartsport1974]

that's the other reason I was considering adding 2 smaller turbos. Ther header i'd like to get splits into dual exhaust.

[dartswinger74]

I am not positive but my understanding is that a regular steel tube headeer will not stand the extra heat produced by having a turbocharger attached to it. But I may be wrong cuz i never tried it.