Possiable cure for Big Block Overheating Problems

[6 packin]

I talked to a Old Mopar Nut that has been running and racing mopars since the early 60's. I told him about my heatimng problems and my current setup for my car. He brought to my attention there is a major diff between the 71 or so back water pump housings and pumps than the later 72 or so up housings and pumps. Of coarse most know that the older housing outlets are on the left (driver side) being the major visual diff. But also the pumps there selfs were diff. We compared the shorter 6 blade pump for pre 72 and a newer 72 Up 8 blade pump, which many say is best for cooling, no doubt there. But what most people dont know is that to switch to the later A/C Pumps, the correct hosuing must be used also, being the right (passenger side outlet). When looking at the 2 it seems that there the same, with just a few more blades. But looking closer the blades are on the opposite side. This would be very important to flow, he said mostly effected at low speed (idle) and high speed flow (above 3000 rpm's being effected the most. He had cooling problems like this many years ago, after almost getting in a slug feast with the Know-It-All Punk at the local Parts store (you know the kid who wouldnt know the diff between a /6 and a Hemi head gasket unless he can punch it up on his trusty computer) they pulled them both dug out the books and found they wasnt the same. He said it was a major problem when switches like this take place over the years. I got the newer pump because I have been told that it flows better in A/C cars, well maybe so, but swaping the hole setup would be best. I know I have a early model hosuing with I belive a late 70's water Pump....Just wondering if anyone else knowed this?

[6 packin]

Maybe I should post some pictures, maybe then I could get some replys, I would like to hear, that if the blades are made for diff outlet pumps i could effect flow, as I was told

[19cuda67]

6 Packin
Please post the picures with the pump differences I'm having a hell of a time with my big block cooling system.

[19cuda67]

What about the aluminum housing that MP sells and the aluminum pumps how do they fit in to this picture.This is dvery interesting this may be the root of my problems.

[19cuda67]

Car idles right up to 230* and climbing,pressure tested system holds 16#'s for over an hour.Put the pressure tester on the radiator started the car no pressure increase till the temp climbed near150* would this mean there is not a head gasket problem?
Aluminum Grifffin 22x18 radiator(radiator support opening is roughly the same size),aluminum pump and housing,Milodon high flow pump,mr gasket 180* high flow t-stat,6 blade Flex-Lite race fan(tried a flex fan),fan is about an inch from radiator,shroud is not the greatest(I see cars without a shroud and no temp problems?) If I run the engine without the radiator cap on it the radiator belchs water,running a b&m super trans cooler in front of the radiator.
Can you tell me how you keep your big block a-body cool ,I'll just copy that want to get this thing to the track before summer ends.It's too hot for the staging lanes.

[b-1ken]

I see you're in Connecticut. I'll be at Lebanon Valley this weekend for the NHRA Divisional race. My '67 Cuda uses the aluminum pump housing with a regular pump and the crappy Moroso electric motor. The present engine is a 440 and doesn't have any cooling problems with the Griffin radiator. The 499 B-1 engine that was in there last year did tend to run a little hot, but it really wasn't a problem. If you're there, look for either a Teal Cuda in Super Street (#1246) or my '88 T-Bird (S/G 1160). I run the same set-up with the T-Bird (511 B-1). It gets a bit hot, but that's because it has a tiny Pro Stock radiator and no grill opening.
Ken B.

[creative1]

19cuda67, i would say you are good to go with your head gasket.

as to the pump stuff, those blades being on opposite sides (if i understand 6 packin right) would make a BIG difference in things like flow and especially cavitation. it has to do with fliud dynamics and flow, and the pump design. more complicated than my limited engineering skills allow me to explain. i would bet that there are some different angles on those blades, too. what is going on there though, is that basically the new pump in the old housing is working backwards... pumping off the wrong side of the blades. as for the cure, there is only one... match the correct pump to the correct housing! this is interesting, though, because i have two 440's... the 1977 that i am running, and a 1971 (i think) that i have that is gonna be the one i build, if i can ever figure out the bugs in the first one. i had no idea dodge did something as dumb as it seems they did with the water pumps!

[pishta]

So to get the better pump, you gotta buy the better housing (passenger side ouput?) That will put a big routing problem on my current radiator...Maybe time for a custom aluminum job with the correct ports?

[Blygy]

I just noticed the other day that my new mama mopar alum housing and pump intake on the drivers side so I proceeded to get a griffin rad..

I assume cause I bought the pump and housing at the same time and place it would be ok.. what do you all think????????

damn if I have to go back to the old pump setup I'm gonna be really grumpy....

Now I'm stressed.. oh well I'll just have to get the truck actually running this week and see

Blygy

[19cuda67]

Does anyone have any definites on the water pumps and housings.Which pumps and housings are the people that are not having cooling problems using,anyone using the MP aluninum stuff pump and housing on a 383 are you having any cooling problems.

[creative1]

as far as i know, my water pump and the housing are original to the engine... a 1978 (made in 1977) 440. the housing is cast iron, and the inlet is on the right (passenger side) of the block. i have no heating problems, even though i am using the radiator that was originally in front of a 360. did run hot with a 318 radiator, though, but thats to be expected.

[6 packin]

I will try to post soe pics tomarrow, I have been getting in so late, Juts became a Daddy, first baby and all. I have both pumps, one is a pre 6 blade setup and the other is a 8 blade late model pump, I have compared them at the guys house who brought it to my attention, he was happy enough to give me the older 6 blade pump, i will try to dig up another later pump pic tomarrow and keep you posted.

[George G. Leverette]

Had a 440 duster that would overheat when standing still in traffic or at the staging lane. Fiunally fixed the problem by installing hood vents so air could flow through the engine compartment. Used the black plastic hood louvers from a Honda, got a lotta positive comments from the few who noticed them on a black car. The best cooling fan is the factory 8 blade clutch type, should be 1-1 1\2" from rad, fan should be at least half way inside shroud. Water pumps come in many configurations, castmiron, alumnium, 4-6 or 8 blades, blades in different lengths, some have covers on the back of the blades. They all flow a certian amount of fluid dependant on engine speed therefore I would look at another source for the overheating problem. Cavitation is a problem with industrial pumps where the water flow into the impellers is not sufficient to maintain output desired, the speed of the impellers cause a frothing and air bubbles whichn impedes the flow through the water lines. An automotive system is encapsulated with a constant supply and flow under constant pressure, cavitation in a car system is a remote.

[mauve66]

when my 383 was rebuilt in 93 I got the MP aluminum housing and pump and never had any problems with heat. After rebuilding the entire car in 98 with the same pump and housing, with a hotter cam I had constant problems with heat . The motor is now rebuilt again with a new roller timing chain and new distributor but have yet to drive it. I remember looking at the impeller bledes and thinking something was wrong........ but I think alot of heat problems could be traced to timing and a slightly lean system................... my chain on the second build was stretched and the distributor ruluctor got slightly chewed up from a loose adjustment screw........

[6 packin]

I swaped out the brand new 8 blade A/C style water pump for a old used 6 blade pump, and it made a big diff, in temp, it idled today at 175 deg for over a half hour, first started it idle it up to 190 deg then kicked on the fans (electric) it slowly drifted back down and stood there hour over a half hour. It made a big diff, the guy was right the oldr pumps do have the blade fins on the opposite side, like revs flow, it was puching it in the wrond direction, for sure, no other mods were made. Close examination revelead that the older pump even though had 2 less blades there were wider and longer, I have seen some older plastic blade pumps that have a curviture in them, this one was the straight type and 6 blades, the part number was a 69-71 version for A/C cars. The other was for a 77 A/C car. As said before the blade fins are flipped for the opposite discharge hose, after 72 I belive was right (passenger) outlet, the early ones were left (driver) outlet. I will post some pics tomarrow night if there is anyone interested, and get some replys.

Thanks
Bob

[mauve66]

if you have pictures of the impeller side of BOTH that would be intersting........
still haven't run minie for more than 5 minutes........ open headers and all.......
hope that my problems were due to ignition only...... I actually want to drive it sometime in the next ten years or so......

[deadhorse66]

I have an two early model cars (both '66) with the left (driver) side water pump inlet. One is a/c, and one is not. I don't know the difference as I have never had to have them apart, but I could check PNs if it would help anyone.

[George G. Leverette]

It really makes no difference which side the discharge is on the pump turns in the same direction. I have heard that marine engines run in the oppisite direction for some reason, could this be a water pump for a marine engine?

[creative1]

but it DOES make a difference... a pump designed to rotate clockwise and intake from the lower right will not have the same design and characteristics as a pump designed to intake from the lower left. either pump in the other casting would see the "natural flow" as backwards. this is why the blades are bent on the other side. there will be some other more subtle differences too. the shape of the blades will be different, as well as the angles they are bent at.

[Blygy]

OK here is my brain fart for the day..

How can the pump turn a different direction?? Don't all 440's turn the same direction... I heard of some kinda french tractor that would run backwards but can a 440????

Blygy

PS if this makes no sense it is 1 am and I'm waiting to look at a rude womans sick cat..LOL

[creative1]

first of all, there are some big block engines that do run backwards from the automobile engines. the 426 industrial is the one i am aware of.

now... the pump does NOT run backwards on some and frontwards on others. BUT, if the intake for the waterpump is on the opposite side (right or left), and has not been moved to the opposite vertical position (top or bottom) then it will see the water flow as reversed... to the pump's perspective. another way to look at it is, if the pump is built to pump with the housing intake coming into the pump at the 8 o'clock position, then if you want to change the intake to the other side of the engine, you must also change its vertical location... 2 o'clock would work well. BUT, if you move that intake to the 4 o'clock position, then the pump will churn the water, but it wont pump as well, because IT (the pump) sees the flow of water on the back side of the blades. it is actually trying to pump the water backwards for the way it was designed. complicated, i know, but that is fluid dynamics for you. lol. welcome to the wunnerful world of physics!
the pump ISNT turning backwards, it is PUMPING backwards. get the idea?

[b-1ken]

No

[amxauto-x]

for a backwards running engine, they should be using a pump and housing designed to run in the opposite direction.

[George G. Leverette]

Thats some real creative thinking but am impeller by design takes the water from the center and slings it toward the outer edge if there is an orfice available it will flow throught that outlet, the size and shape of the impeller combined with the desired design flow in GPM are considerations, not the locations of the fluid source and discharge. Discussing the Hazen Williams formula for fluid dynamics aint gonna help this guy cool his engine.

[6 packin]

I have had some schooling on flow dynamics, by looking at the pump blades it actually works backwards than what most people would think. The center or eye is the low pressure side and causes water flow, there is no force that sucks, only diff pressure, we was NOT allowed to Use that word in school. Take a look at these picks and tell me what you guys think, ther is a diff in how and were the blades are turned. The pump design is called a volute case, and the off centered pump compared to the housing effects were the flow goes. This is a centrifugal pumps only.

[amxauto-x]

Seems if they are rotated in the same direction, the water would go in different directions. I'd have to see those in person or a lot bigger picture.

[6 packin]

Here is a better pic.

[amxauto-x]

I enlarged it with photodraw, but they were fuzzy. This one is better. Thanks. It still looks to me like the left one willpump from inside towards the outside , and the right one will pump from the outside towards the inside. I guess as long as the water leaves the housing in the right direction

[mannye]

Looking at those pictures, what I (who knows squat about fluid dynamics) see is if they turn clockwise, then the inlet would work best positioned on the "left" and the outlet would be best opposite the inlet on the "right" (replace left and right with top and bottom if you like)

Then the direction the blades face might be more efficient when placed in a manner that "pulls" from the inlet side and "pushes" towards the outlet....right?

Of course I am assuming that the impeller is placed directly between and not in front or behind the ports.....

of course...I'm an idiot...who also happens to have a big block that runs too hot at idle...

[b-1ken]

George L. is correct. All centrifugal pumps inlet at the center and should flow tangentially out from the circumference in the direction of the impeller. Running the pump in reverse direction will not change this. It might make the pump less efficient though.