very diappointed

[eddiebbad]

i took my 69 runner out today too see what it would do in the 1/4. last year i run a 14.03@107 with a 470 stoker 323 gear 464 stock 6 pac cam 26 inch bf goodrich drags holley750 double pumper mopar intake musle motors street killer iron heads. this year major changes eb heads 6 pac carbs 507 custom grind cam 391 gears 28 inch sportsman pros ss springs pinion snubber drag shocks front and back went 13.66@107 what gives i didnt gain anything. a couple tenths. could of run better last year if i chnged gear from 323 to 391. timing is at 34 shifting at 6000 car seems to pull good but levels out at 5500 but trnny wont shift until 6000. looking for some answers relly disgusted spent big $$ for nothing, help me believe in my mighty mopar again.

[amxauto-x]

You'll have to give the specs on that cam, do you mean .507 lift? Dur? I don't have a book to look it up. What compression ratio?

An 850 Demon or Holley would be better. Which Mopar intake?

What's a 464?

The mph won't always go up when the et goes down if the engine quits pulling way before you cross the line.

Now the experts will have to do this one.

[skankweirdall]

Well, you picked up a bunch of ET, about 40- 50 HP worth, the fact that you didn't gain any MPH though leads me to believe the car must be leaving OK but running out of fuel. You don't give a lot of info; What about 60' times, 1/8 ET and MPH? What do you have for a fuel system, exactly what are the before and after cam specs? What about the torque converter? Any work done to the Eddy heads, what about the previous ones? Do you have any flow figures? What compression ratio, how much does the car weigh? What kind of suspension? If you are gonna ask technical questions and you want technical answers you have to provide the technical info. Otherwise you'll just get a bunch of guessing.

[Dennis Jokela]

34º of timing is not near enough. try 38º.

Dennis

[gsmopar]

Ditto on the timing!

[littlecampbell]

What are "muscle motors street killer iron heads"? This sound like another bow-ty joke..... ....sorry, no dissrespect!

[Dart]

Pistons, CR and ignition are what I need to see...

60' times are the key here and will tell you a lot about how the motor is running.

I would agree about the potential fuel issue...(skankweirdall)

If you are stock on the fuel line and pump that will not work with stroker motor and six pack...

Need some more info!!

[sixpackgut]

eddiedbad,
i am curious as to how your car is leaving the line. i have a sixpack and have been working on my carbs for a month now trying to get better 60 ft times. like everyone else said please give more info. how heavy is your rr and what tq?

[eddiebbad]

i have stock feul line 3000 to 3500 stall street killer heads are 906s ported to flow 20% better than stock. i was using a gtech so i dont have 60 ft times but the car seemed to leave good i think i need to change the feul line and get the tranny to shift earlier. i just thought with all the changes it would run better. i ll have to get my cam card and get the specs. the 464 is just a stock 6 pac cam a purple shaft.

[skankweirdall]

I've seen NHRA Stockers run a single electric pump and a single 3/8" fuel line and still run 10's with a six pack. I don't reccomend it though. I would probably run dual 3/8 pickups into dual Holley blue pumps then into a single 1/2" line to the fuel block. Or a single high powered pump like a BG 280 with a single 1/2" line in and out. It may be overkill but it will have enough fuel. You may also find that you don't need to short shift the tranny once you've got fuel to the carbs.


Secondly, if you are measuring all of this without the aid of real electronic timers you may just be shooting in the dark. I know the G Force says it is fairly accurate, but you need real accuracy if you want to tune your car by it's actual performance.


Third, as far as the heads, without real flow numbers it's hard to say if they were an improvement. I'd assume they were but with no port work, compared to ported iron heads they may not be. You may have only effectively taken about 40 pounds of the front of the car and lowered the effective compression about a point. In order for aluminum heads to maintain the same power production at a given flow rate they need 1 - 1 1/2 more points of compression than iron heads. The real advantage of aluminum heads is ease of modification, repairability, and less weight. It sounds like you may not have taken full advantage of your heads and this could have caused a considerable lack of performance improvement.


You need to straighten out you fuel system first, remember for every one performance modification you make there is at least one more you will have to make in order for it to be effective.

Good luck.

[eddiebbad]

thanks alot for the info i think a fuel line change is a must and take it too the track. the car is a street car but i want it to aleast be respectable right now im not impressed at all. i was hoping for low 12s long way to go to get there. im only running 9.5 comp with the iron heads does this mean im at 8.5 with the eddy heads?

[skankweirdall]

If the chamber size is the same then no. You will have the same mechanical compression ratio but since aluminum heads dissapate heat (energy) much more rapidly it's *like* dropping a point of compression. In other words you need to up the compression ratio mechanically by at least one point to achieve the same power output as iron heads. You should still be able to run the same octane fuel as you did with the iron heads even though you upped the mechanical compression ratio.

[Tomasso B Cuda]

Your mph indicates you are making some real hp so the engine $$$$ is well spent. Your et indicates you may be dragging something behind the car, keeping the hp from puttting you into the 12's where the mph indicates you should be. I don't think you have the need for a killer fuel system as being discussed, but you do have the need for further tuning as in timing, jetting and chassis. I have been tuning on a 505 six pak stoker motor and we don't have any fuel deilvery problems with the 5/16 lines and a mechanical 6 psi fuel pump.. It currently runs 13.00 @ 112 mph due to driver and chassis issues.

[eddiebbad]

how can i rise the comp. ratio? tomasso what are you running for jets and timing? shankweirdall thanks for the help i really can use all i can get just getting in to the mopar stuff my 1st car and everyone else has chevies so im counting on you guys to help me get this thing to run like i think it should maybe im just asking for too much what do you think am i?

[littlecampbell]

eddiebbad...email me at cultussox@shaw.ca...I dunno why this site does not allow any private messages.

[skankweirdall]

I don't think you are asking too much Eddie, but it's going to take some work sorting it out. First thing to do is straighten out the exterior stuff before you dive into the engine again. This being the fuel system. As I said before, others have made the near stock fuel system work, but I don't think they get the full potential of their combination. Feeding a 505 CID engine with 3 two barrel carbs, a stock fuel pump and 5/16" line seems counter productive to me. You have to have more than enough fuel flow and capacity to overcome high speed leanout and the forces of a hard launch. Nothing else will limit your performance like a restrictive fuel system. Tomasso B Cuda says he doesn't have any fuel delivery problems but I find that hard to believe. At 112 the car should run well into the 11's, so that is over a second off. Hard to believe that's all chassis and driver. I'd wager that that car would run alot better than 112 with a good fuel system.



First do you have any idea what the chamber volume was on your old heads? What is the piston deck height? Positive (above the deck) or negative (below the deck) What pistons are they? Flat tops? What head gasket thickness and bore size. Got valve reliefs? Any idea what their volume is? Bore and stroke on your stroker? With this info we can roughly figure what your compression ratio was and is now. You'll need to figure this before we raise it. If nothing else you'll need to know what you have now so you'll know where to go.

One other thing most of the iron head BB's work pretty well with about 38* total advance. I wouldn't think you'd need this much with the Eddy heads as the combustion chamber is supposed to be so much better, but I really haven't had the opportunity to play with an Eddy headed BB yet. So I'll defer to someone who has.

[Tomasso B Cuda]

Having a good friend who has been building engines for 40 yrs so I can say his technical expertise is very good. There are a few rules of thumb he has regarding engines. One is if you are not spinning your engine past 6000 rpm BB or 6500 rpm in a SB you typically do not need the killer fuel systems everyone wants you to use....

The 505 six pak stoker engine is air flow limited by the six pak intake so it never sees over 6000 rpm. It does not lean out at the top end...it just keeps on going till it hits the rev limiter. This engine is a hand full for sure and the driver is not a racer so it will never run what it should, but it is not running out of fuel....
However we did have quite a time find the correct tune for the engine so it does not run rich....timing and jetting....

The 416 six pak small block is in a car raced on the road course with no fuel delivery issues anywhere on the track...again stock 5/16 lines and a carter 6 psi fuel pump..142 mph no problem.... Again timing curve/initial, jetting, the mixture adjustments from the outboards and the proper springs in the secondaries make the difference.

The best way to prove or dissprove a lean condition at WOT is the appropriate instrumentation such as an oxygen sensor.

[skankweirdall]

I mean no disrespect Tomasso, as I said I've seen some people make it work, but was your friends rule of thumb formulated 30-40 years ago? I couldn't make that work on a mild single 4 barrel 440 in a 3800lb Charger. Eventually used two 3/8 pick ups into two Carter low pressure pumps into a single 1/2 line. Car ran 11'40's then. I still would rather go with the fuel system I know will supply the needs of the engine.

[eddiebbad]

littlecampbell you can e mail me at eddiebbad@yahoo.com if you want too

[Dart]

I second Stank...

The stock 5/16 fuel line with a 505 stroker and a stock mechanical pump isn't going to do it. Sometimes it's hard to determine when you are running out of fuel until you rectify it. I lay my bet on the fuel combo.

I also need to know what pistons you are running and the calculated compression ratio.

[Dart]

What is the cranking compression?

[amxauto-x]

Originally posted by Dart
What is the cranking compression?

cranking 'cylinder pressure'

[skankweirdall]

Originally posted by Tomasso B Cuda
The best way to prove or dissprove a lean condition at WOT is the appropriate instrumentation such as an oxygen sensor.

I think the best way would be to dyno your engine, work out how many LBS/HR of fuel it uses and then see if you can squeeze that much through a 5/16" line at 6 PSI.

[eddiebbad]

i hooked up a gauge tonite and ran it to the windshield so i could watch as i drove. just mildly getting in to it at 3000 had 3psi i think i might have found a major problem. im going to drop the tank and order a new elec. pump and line any ideas3/8 or 1/2 im leaning towards 1/2 to 3/8 at the carbs what do you guys think?

[skankweirdall]

I would run 1/2 to the fuel block and then 3/8 to the carbs. Ideally if you are using a stock tank I'd either add a Comp Engineering sump to it or run two 3/8 pickups out of the stock sender. If you are careful you can take the sender apart and remove the stock 5/16 line, swedge it large enough for the 3/8 line and then add a second the same way. Be careful not to bend up the flange. Have a radiator shop silver solder it if you don't feel comfortable doing it. Don't forget to remove the electrical connection and insulator with gasket. There is certainly other ways to get there though.

[amxauto-x]

With a big pump a 1/2 will be good. What pump are you thinking?

[cuda66273]

Here's my 2 cents...
Your running out of fuel....it's a 13-14 second car, you need at least 1 3/8th fuel line from the tank up.

You can try a Carter 120 #4862 but I would really just advise you to bite the bullet and install a fuel system that will take you where it seems your going anyhow..much faster.

Start at the tank and weld in a sump kit

Use a -10 bulkhead from there to a good filter like a BG 5000 or you could get away with a HPG-1 Fram but use the Wix replacement filter cartridge.

-10 to a good pump like a BG 200 RR with the built in Bypass or the HR pump with the rteturn line both will deliver good fuel volume for you application at 220 gallons per hour and give you some growing room.

From the pump to the carb run -08 and slpit it off to each end of the carb with a -06 feed line through a BG 2 port regulator.

This set up will take you right down to the low 12's.

Once you tickle the 11's you'll probably need to go to a 280 pump or the new Enduro's when they become available.

With 9.5:1 compression your probably fine at 34* of total but where is it all coming in at and what box are you running?...A orange box will pull 5-8 degrees of timing out of the ignition at 5500 RPM, even an MSD system pulls timing out of the motor at high RPM's. So you may think your running 34 but as the RPM increases your actually running allot less.

It seems to me that you have the right ingedients we just need to stirr them up and bit and put some "Shake and Bake" in your tune-up.

I would think that your combination should run low 12's.

You've got the big stuff now you need to look after some of the small details.

[eddiebbad]

well thanks for all the help im going to start the upgrade this week end . ill keep all you guys posted. thanks again for all the help

[Mr. Trans Am]

505 on a 5/16 line? Nope.

Even the factory, who will always uprade over anyway in the performance world, felt the need for 3/8 line in 440 and Hemi cars.

Get the fuel system up to snuff and you will not be dissapointed. It never ceases to amaze me what people will stuff in a car and leave the fuel system behind. Some don't know any better, but I've even seen people that do make the mistake of being hard headed about the necessary upgrades.

Your MPH is already in the 12 sec ET range so getting the bugs worked out should net you a nice timeslip DEEP in the 12's.

[deadhorse66]

Eddie, if you discover you need some more compression, you can use a steel shim gasket @ .020", or possibly cuda could set you up with a Cometic gasket matched to your bore that would help things a little. If you know your deck clearance, piston crown volume, compressed head gasket thickness/gasket bore dia. and chamber cc, you can calculate your compression @http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.phtml . I would shoot for 10.5:1 with an alu. headed engine--that would be the limit for 93 octane, though.

I agree with everyone about your fuel delivery being the main problem. Plenty is always better than not enough. You can always overkill it if you want and leave room for growth as long as you can keep your pressure at a steady 6-8 lbs. I guess you had already reached that conclusion though.