DAMMIT WHY??!!

[1972roadrunner]

of all the SHIT! motor has been running with 80psi of oil pressure for the last week. NOW there is a very LOW sounding knock!! it's been kept under 4,000rpm and only driven on the road 3 or 4 times all of which were under 40mph! the motor was run in the garage for about 3 total hours (adjusting carb, timing, and making sure valves are set correctly, and getting the rings sat etc...).

the noise just started 2 nights ago, and at that time, i was pulling it into the garage due to a storm. it hasn't been started until today (working on '94 firebird right now). i took the valve covers off, and fired it up, and it's definently very low within the motor.

as many times as this damned thing has tossed cranks out the window, is it possible maybe my rods are weak and being f^#ked up from being resized, running, and then resized over and over?? as of now, i'm expecting rods, but i'm going to yank the pan and see if it isn't the windage tray or sumthin that somehow came loose.

if the crank is damaged at all (hasn't run hardly at all, but i know it don't take much), i'm going to replace the rods. any suggestions on cheap, but strong rods for around 500hp at the flywheel?? also, my pistons use free floating pins. i am on a very tight budget, as the MOPAR isn't the only thing in the garage now, and i also have a big skool project (senior project -- building gokart from custom frame, and using fourwheeler engine/trans, tires, axles, suspension, brakes).

thanx for any help

[cuda66273]

Hey Dave....you can send my $5 anytime

"any suggestions on cheap, but strong rods for around 500hp at the flywheel?? "

Oliver Billets at $1299 a set.

500 HP? I thought these were for your motor?

" the motor was run in the garage for about 3 total hours"
Before you seated the rings?

"as of now, i'm expecting rods"
rods don't knock it's the bearing clearance allowing the rod to bounce on the crank.

Could be piston slap what was the wall to piston clearance?

"has been running with 80psi of oil pressure for the last week"
So what's the O/P now?

" i took the valve covers off, and fired it up"
So why didn't it spray oil all over the garage?

"big skool project"
Is that like a school project?

"(working on '94 firebird right now)"
I hope your not taking it apart?

I know how to fix it....send me $7500 and I'll build you a real 500 HP motor and you can sell the water squirters on Ebay..you won't need them.

I'm heading out for a long weekend of racing...should be able to click off pass number 900 on the 318 without touching the bottom end. Still have 80# cold 55 hot and 90 through the traps...just like it was on the first pass 3 years ago..."some" things never change

[70Barracuda]

Thats brutal! My 340 has been running for 25 years now.

[cuda66273]

Hey 70......

I think you owe me 5 too....LOL

Just made it by 3 days....could have cost me big money...

[jimm II]

Good luck on the weekend racing Don Oh this chev guy. (lets call him Dave) suggested crank the ignition to 40 degrees,dump the msd wires for solid core ,and probably junk the BG HR220 pump for a holley.....any thoughts.....


Just Kidding have a good weekend Don

[jimm II]

1972 Road runner ; the luck you have had this year sucks...I hope when you pull the pan all you find is the loose windage tray .

The chev. guy in the above post is a buddy of mine from Ontario.

[dave571]

I'm glad you clarified who the Dave was.

[1972roadrunner]

Originally posted by cuda66273
"any suggestions on cheap, but strong rods for around 500hp at the flywheel?? "

Oliver Billets at $1299 a set.

oh sure, i'd use em, but theres no way in hell i could ever buy em... i was actually lookin at Eagle I Beams from mancini for $240 a set.

Originally posted by cuda66273
500 HP? I thought these were for your motor?

it IS my motor....

Originally posted by cuda66273
"as of now, i'm expecting rods"
rods don't knock it's the bearing clearance allowing the rod to bounce on the crank.

i realize that, but if the rods are in someway fubar, could they mess up bearings and crank?

Originally posted by cuda66273
Could be piston slap what was the wall to piston clearance?

to be honest, i didn't measure, but they were pretty tight going in. i actually thought of it, but ALL my problems have been crank related...the cylinders have looked good every time i rebuilt it. this is in fact the same sound as the LAST time it went south...

Originally posted by cuda66273
"has been running with 80psi of oil pressure for the last week"
So what's the O/P now?

STILL 82 when i start it cold. and 75 when it warms up. the noise JUST started, so i parked it and am going to start yankin it (after i check the windage tray) so i can get it torn apart in 1.2 hours to inspect everything.

Originally posted by cuda66273
" i took the valve covers off, and fired it up"
So why didn't it spray oil all over the garage?

i didn't say it didn't, i have a big mess from it underneath, and my windsheild/hood is oily now. the heads are being oiled really well, as opposed from when the oil galley plug was out the last time...

Originally posted by cuda66273
"(working on '94 firebird right now)"
I hope your not taking it apart?

um, yea...replacing the 3.4L V6 (Vin=S - OHV) in it. after i took off the exhaust pipes (off the manifolds), and turned the crank with my breakover bar, i got a shitload of coolant on me that came out of the exhaust manifold...which is why i was tearing it apart in the first place. it's draining the block and has been driven while overheated several times (not by us). the guy that owned it wasn't too bright, hell, he sold us the car for $500

[pishta]

check the convertor bolts. Mine were loose at one time and it made a hollow knocking noise deep down below. I still think 80 PSI is too much. did you replace the pressure spring in the pump with a rod?

[dave571]

Is that 80 psi at idle?

Are you breaking it in with 20w50 and a high volume oil pump, like the last time?

[amxauto-x]

should be 10-30, or even maybe 5-30 wt oil, and a standard oil pump with stock/street/non-race clearances.

[b-1ken]

Originally posted by pishta
check the convertor bolts. Mine were loose at one time and it made a hollow knocking noise deep down below. I still think 80 PSI is too much. did you replace the pressure spring in the pump with a rod?

Good advice (converter bolts). I had loose converter bolts (flex plate to crank bolts) and it sounded exactly like main bearing knock. Did you use Loc-Tite on them?. I don't see any thing wrong with 80 psi oil pressure. I use stock NAPA (not high pressure or volume) pumps with my B-1 engines and they give me about 85 psi cold. Did you assemble this engine yourself? If you did, did the crankshaft spin easily in the block? Did you check the main bearing housing bore sizes before you assembled it?
Hope you're lucky and it's only the converter bolts.

[dave571]

Originally posted by amxauto-x
should be 10-30, or even maybe 5-30 wt oil, and a standard oil pump with stock/street/non-race clearances.

Exactly. We talked about this the last time this motor failed. 5w30 and a standard oil pump. Move up the oil weight, whn pressure starts to drop off hot. to 10/40 .

We don't condemn engines untill they get less than 18 psi at idle.(even then, they don't start to knock till they hit about 6 psi)

With 80, the relief is open every time you hit the throttle.

10psi/1000 revolutions, ring a bell? More isn't always better.

[amxauto-x]

My Ramcharger has almost 300,000 miles on it's 400, auto. Has about 15 - 25 psi all the time. Maybe the sending unit is stuck. But it doesn't knock at all. One of these days I'll have to use 40 wt. But straight 30 works just fine. Just have to get it right.

[cuda66273]

"Eagle I Beams from mancini for $240 a set."
Sorry I thougth you said "Good" in that sentence

"it IS my motor"
Sorry I didn't realize that you were making that kind of power

"i didn't measure, but they were pretty tight going in"
Oh that's good we don't want them loose and rattling around in the bore, did't you have to bore it last time?....did you get new pistons too or were the old ones OK?

"STILL 82 when i start it cold. and 75 when it warms up"
Oil system looks fine....so treat it like a sore Dick and don't F**K with it, look somewhere else for a loose nut or something.

You might want to check the convertor bolts, 500 HP can sometimes stretch the bolts and let them whack on the block.

Also check the dampener bolt to be sure it's not the loose nut, the pulleys can sometimes rattle like a clunk.

Stick a fuel line in your ear, use it like a stethoscope and hunt down the clunker.

Have fun I'm outta here for the weekend

[360DARTGTS]

well it looks like ther are people out there that have luck like me after all!!!!

Sorry to hear 'bout your luck. I hope that Indy didn't have anything at all to do with your engine. They'd f$&* it up for sure and try and steal your money. I had a 340 that I rebuild 2 times and also turned the crank in between once and it turned out the block was junk. Indy Cyl. heads did the machine work, I assembled the 2nd rebuild, and they forgot to mag the block after I told them I had an oil pressure issue and missed it so they tried to screw me out of $1500. I know the oil pressure fears that you are having been there done that 4 times total, currently on rebuild of another engine again!!!!!!!

I'd just watch the oil pressure and see if it falls at any over the next few miles if you feel brave. If you didn't measure the bore/piston size I'd be weary of alot of things and not just oil pressure.

Let me guess you wanted to save a few bucks so you assembled it yourself? Again been there done that see paragraph #2. Good luck!

[b-1ken]

Originally posted by 360DARTGTS
Let me guess you wanted to save a few bucks so you assembled it yourself? Again been there done that see paragraph #2. Good luck!

Are you implying that nobody should ever build their own engine? How the hell are you ever going to learn anything if you keep letting other people tie your shoe laces for you?

[1972roadrunner]

my dad is a race car driver/builder, and has been building engines since HE was young. granted they were chevies, they're motors. yes, i built it with my dad supervising etc.

cuda, no i only bored it once, i used a hone that has funny balls on the end (dad calls it a dingleberry hone) and honed it myself. it looke really good, and the pistons ect were tight going in.

the crank was freshly turned .020 under, and i had the block checked out to make sure everything was ok.

as far as oil pressure, my brothers 440 was rebuilt in my garage by us 4 years ago, and had 80psi of oil pressure when we first fired it up. 4 years later of everyday town/highway driving, still carries 80psi when you start it cold. and yes, we use havoline 20w-50 in it with a HV oil pump.

also, my pump is a brand new hv, unmolested as far as springs go, but i'll be damned if i can remember the manufacturer. i think either milodon or moroso, i can't remember...used too many.

now then, as far as the noise, my fears have been confirmed. there is metal in the oil pan. no copper, but it's got lotsa greyness.... as many times as this damned thing has spat cranks out the window, i'm thinking the rods may have been side-cut and clearanced too far, or are just crap...they are the stock rods....and have been resized 4 times...

NOW THEN! i need some rods that are dependable (preferrably steel), and easy on the wallet. what is wrong with the eagle rods other than being made in china? they are bushed for full floating pins, and are forged steel. i'll have my machinest make sure the ends are true and the right size, and i might as well have him put the pistons on cuz i don't have the correct tools for the clips...that and i've never done it before... $5.50 a piston aint bad....

as far as my engine building techniques, and the oil/pumps i use, i've had enuff of the flaming. if you don't have answers to my questions, don't bash or 'comment' on how i build/run my motor. i asked a fairly simple question. if there is anymore, i'm gonna take my shit somewhere else... i do like this site, it's a great place for info, but SOME ppl just can't accept the fact that everyone does things differently and have much different opinions. i won't name names either...

the thing ran GREAT for 6 months the first time i rebuilt it (using same techniques) untill the bearings seized up from anti-freeze. oh yea, when they seized, i didn't realize it and tried starting it. with the batt booster on it, it fired and i had to put my foot into it to keep it going untill suddenly smoke is comoing out of my breathers. it was locked up pretty bad. could that have done sumthin to these rods? the only reason anti-freeze got into it is because the gasket between the timing chain cover and block leaked and let water into the front of the oil pan.

[360DARTGTS]

Not at all. Just saying that you get ehat you pay for. Personal experience speaking here! 99% of car guys out there don't have an entire machine shop of tools etc. to do it right. I personally can't afford/justify buying a Sunnen valve grinder can you? I don't trust anyone locally here to work on my engine machining so I'd prefer to send it to a reputable shop and having the guys that have to tools do it right the first time.

[ajmopar]

Just a question, not a flame-

Were the rods resized? I bet the big end is not round anymore.

Next question, I seem to remember you saying that you were running 12:1 pistons, I remember a guy in town here who tried to run his 69 Z/28 with 11.5:1 compression on 94 octane and blew the rod bearings constantly due to detonation (you can't always here it) Granted, a small block mope is way tougher, but the rod bearings can still take a bad beating this way.

You need to determine this before you waste another crank. And this way you can drill and tap the block for the remote filter and throw the mickey mouse adaptor out the window while you are cleaning the block. Just think how familiar you are with 340 bottom ends now, and so young...

[1972roadrunner]

micky mouse adapter?? naw, it's right. many circle track guys use it, and it works. the filter picked up some lint (from red rag usage), and very very small particles that were like dust or sumthin, i dunno...

anyhow, now i'm REALLY confused!! there aren't any big chunks in the pan, but small files and a grey "sludge" probably 1/8" thick. i was going under a few minutes ago to start gettin stuffs off on the bottom (torque converter bolts, motor mounts, oil lines, tranny lines, lower rad hose, exhaust pipes etc) and i wiped the oil pickup tube (milodon unit) to keep from getting oil in my face, and the whole thing MOVED very freely!! WTF?? it was VERY tight going in, and it wouldn't move hardly at all! now suddenly it's loose??!! . well, now i don't know what to think. dad is an hour away at work, and not in his office so i'm not going to do ANYTHING untill he calls back...

but WTF? how the hell could that thing suddenly be loose??? oh yea, i did use plumbers tape (going the correct way and not by the end) and the oil pump has a gasket as well.

[dave571]

Here's my answer, with no flaming intended.

A high volume oil pump has no business being in a freshly machined street engine.

80 psi at idle is way too much. Your brother has gotten lucky.

I believe, that if you have experienced brg failure again, it is from lack of lubrication. The excessive pressure does not help lubricate, it damages things. If you don't believe it, thats fine. How many engines will it take, for you to believe it?(Serious question, not being a smart ass)

5w30, and a std oil pump.

The only other option on an engine this fresh, is improper assembly, or machining.

No flaming. It's the only cause that makes sense.

When I assembled my engine, I didn't machine the crank. I replaced the brgs only. I had .0025" clearance. This is the high end of spec. That said, I used a hv oil pump.(remember, the brg surfaces had not been machined)

Like you, I had way too much oil pressure. I changed the pump back to standard. I still ,have great oil presure, but not obscene, like yours.

No noise, no oil consumption, with a year of bagging on, in two different vehicles. Not bragging, just saying.

HVOP, do not provide "better" lubrication. They provide more oil to take up excessive clearances. Like those found in race applications, or worn out engines.

[1972roadrunner]

Originally posted by dave571
Here's my answer, with no flaming intended.

A high volume oil pump has no business being in a freshly machined street engine.

80 psi at idle is way too much. Your brother has gotten lucky.

I believe, that if you have experienced brg failure again, it is from lack of lubrication. The excessive pressure does not help lubricate, it damages things. If you don't believe it, thats fine. How many engines will it take, for you to believe it?(Serious question, not being a smart ass)

5w30, and a std oil pump.

The only other option on an engine this fresh, is improper assembly, or machining.

No flaming. It's the only cause that makes sense.

When I assembled my engine, I didn't machine the crank. I replaced the brgs only. I had .0025" clearance. This is the high end of spec. That said, I used a hv oil pump.(remember, the brg surfaces had not been machined)

Like you, I had way too much oil pressure. I changed the pump back to standard. I still ,have great oil presure, but not obscene, like yours.

No noise, no oil consumption, with a year of bagging on, in two different vehicles. Not bragging, just saying.

HVOP, do not provide "better" lubrication. They provide more oil to take up excessive clearances. Like those found in race applications, or worn out engines.

click on profile for dave571
then "Add dave571 To Your Ignore List" on the bottom right hand side of the screen.....

as i said i'm tired of this. I USE WHAT OIL I TRUST! I DON'T WANT THIN SHITZ IN MY CAR!! MY CAR!! MY MOTOR!! MINE!! christ! i ask a question about rods and get an oil lecture! if i'm gettin oil on my windsheild and on top of my car, how can it not oil well?? irrelevant...

my bro got lucky?? no, he didn't. i had GREAT oil pressure when i first rebuilt this thing. it hit 80 when i got going and it was cold, but usually was around 70-75. then shit went south after that first fuckup of coolant in the oil.

use what oil YOU like, and i'll stick to my havoline 20w-50 and HVOP. i'm happy you had great success with your stock oil pump and thin oil...i HAD success untill that stupid gasket... some JBWeld and a flat edge...no more problem (coolant started eating aluminum cover).

[360DARTGTS]

Sounds like a water leak somewhere in the engine. Was the block maged'? If it was then check the intake to head sealing. Just my .02 worth. Didn't mean to flame ya if I did. I've just had problems in the past with my engines and can feel your pain better than most.

[Mopardad]

Is it possible that a cam lobe is going down putting metal in the oil?? This can cause bearing failure very quickly. If the cam or lifters have gone down you must do a complete teardown & cleanup.

[360DARTGTS]

Another thought

Do a leakdown test on all cyl. and look for air bubbles in the radiator to see if you have a head gasket leak. Nothing to take apart that way.!

[dave571]

Take a pill man.

Ignore what you want, and use whatever oil you want.

You asked a question, I gave you an answer.

I didn't flame you, you want to take a shot a me, do your worst.

Let me know what it turns out to be. I'm curious what has destroyed your bottom end so many times now.

I'll be pondering your problem when I'm at the track tonight.

If it is cam material. What do you think caused the cam failure? Just a suggestion.

[1972roadrunner]

as far as water, i can't see any in the oil (bright yellow oil pan). although, it could be possible. the block hasn't been magnifluxed and i doubt the heads were. course, the radiator was still full.

mopardad, it is definently possible that the cam is going away. it was $40 from PAW (ssi performance) and has gone through 3 rebuilds with metal going through the engine. everytime i clean the cam (as well as all other parts) with clean solvent. it shows signs of very little wear as well.

i'll have to talk to my college teacher about a leakdown. i'll probably have to trailer the car and take it to the college as i don't have leakdown guages. my teacher has a 2 guage leakdown tester (from snap-on) that he'll let ppl use as long as he's there cuz they cost like $200.

[pishta]

could it be bearing material? are you using babitt or tri metal bearings? With that high oil pressure, I am betting the tolerances are very close (that is good, excellent workmanship) but for a high horse motor you would want a little more play, like the high end of the tolerances, to keep the slick stuff thick enough to pad some abuse. I wish I could get more than 20 lbs at idle, but i have never seen it for more than about an 10 minutes. All my motors seem to have idle pressure of about 20, which I can live with, it climbs right with the tach. <p>If it is flakes, remove a few main caps and see if the tri-metal bearing are showing some copper. Sometimes you would give up a few tenths for a motor that you can depend on. Good luck, keep us informed. We all learn from others mishaps unfortunately, but it takes a good guy to share those with others to further the cause.

[Mr.Mopar]

What, put dave571 on the ignore list, ha ha ha, you are too funny. You might as well put cuda66273 on there too, these guys are willing to give you good advice, LISTEN TO IT! Keep putting those "cheap" parts in there and you should expect breakdowns. Have you personally met these people, they are very informative, well educated MOPAR people. Don't even talk about them that way. Maybe you should look elsewhere for your answers, or go back to the Chevy stuff and sell the Mopar, or maybe buy a bike.
Oh, did I just get voted for the ignore list too?