cam grinds

[lgorton]

hey all,

looking for some info on what cam grind i should purchase. ive rebuilt quite a few motors but this is my first time at building a "hot rod"

here are a few of the particulars that may be needed to help with my question....the car weighs about 2700lbs as it sits right now
i will be pulling the 4 banger and replacing it with a stock(for now)360 with a 904. the motor has a 2 barrel carb but i will be replacing that with a 4 barrel, intake and headers

looking for something that will able to be driven on a daily basis but not to concerned about milage. im also not opposed to a mildly rough idle. gearing hasnt been determined yet but i am going to be running an 8 3/4" rear. any info would be great

thanks in advance

[MAXAXE3]

lance, cams are a difficult choice because so many different factors go into choosing "the right" cam. i would be glad to delve into the great abyss of cams but try this...

get a mopar purple shaft 284/484 hydraulic cam from mopar performance - - - i'm sure some of our friends here may agree or disagree, but as an entry level starter cam... it's great.

good lope to the engine, good low range torque, good power
especially for a basically stock 4bbl engine - i can already say you will be happy with it to start off with.

[lgorton]

max,
that is the kind of info i am looking for, like i said, i am kinda virgin at this project.......thanks

[rumblefish360]

Lets get a little more info from you. What is the cruise range you wish to be in at the spped (Limit) you drive. For the most part, 55 mph is where most people choose at. Is 3000 rpm to much?
This is one way of helping us zero in on a cam. I noticed you included the car weight. And by your discription, it will be a street/ strip with more street than strip. Here, gearing is very important. Also size tire. These must be deterimed!
Make a plan before you purchase a thing, then stick to it!
What kind of ride are we talking about here?
A purple cam is a good starting point. From there, you can swap it out for more power later.

[lgorton]

well
the car is an '80 AMC Concord. as you guessed, we are talking a street cruiser but will hit the track from time to time. without overdrive(904) i would probably guess that 3000 rpm's is gonna be pretty close to 55/60 mph. tire size right now is 195/70/14 ,could probably go up to 215/60 but not any bigger. havent even begun to look at gearing options yet. leaning more towards low end/midrange torque rather than a really high top end. dont get me wrong, i dont wanna top out at 80 but dont really see any need(at this point) to exceed 120 or so.

[dave571]

Search cams, and you'll find a large variety of info on cams in the threads.

I have run mopar cams in the past. I'm currently running a custom ground Racer Brown cam in my van. Very noticable improvements in performance. Only marginally more money, and no guessing required.

I would think a custom ground cam would be a much better way to go with you, as your application is certainly not like any off the shelf combo.

[MAXAXE3]

i could not agree with dave more on a custom cam, but i think we are talking basically stock here with very light mods. i cant see going with a custom on this application when a proven performer is available off the shelf. crane, crower etc .. off the shelf for this no way..but mp 284/484 yeah. it's a proven cam.
i have used this cam on a lot of beginners street cars, just to get them some bump and power, yet keep good streetability and decent track performance - they loved it...and then wanted more.

i am also assuming this is a mopar 360 - not an amc 360. if its amc i would go with dave on a custom.

[FearThe4Doors]

can anyone tell me about how much Comp or some other place charges for custom grinds? I would need a solid lifter small block cam. Thanks!

[Aspen77RT]

They quoted me 300.00 on a custom hydralic roller. Not bad IMO. I would rather have just the plain old 380 Crate grind, but mopar only sells it with the lifters. I already got a set.

[FearThe4Doors]

not bad at all seeing as how their "premade" ones are 300+

[dave571]

I don't think a Racer Brown is any more than that. He is a mopar guy.

[cuda66273]

Good custom ground cams from the Racer start at about $195-230 with hyd. lifters.

They go up from there depending on the amount of grinding done on the core to get the spec's he wants for your application...the pricing is more than competitve when you consider the Quality....or have we all forgotten about quality?

Jim has about 60 different Mopar grinds that he works from and then modify's the base grind for your specific application.

MP Cams....Joke...ask them who ground it, see if you get an answer.

The answer is the "LOWEST" bidder somewhere offshore.

I'll keep supporting an All American Company thank you. Like we don't need to spend our money here at home and keep Americans working.

I may be wrong but I don't recall China, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand or Singapore being on the list of country's that are currently financially assisting us in our War Terrorism and the rebuilding of Iraq.

Makes allot of sence to be spending our money on imported goods when it's American Company's and Tax Payers that are footing the bill to protect their sorry Commy a$$es and they contribute nothing back.

It's time for Import Duty's on all this Asian crap.

[lgorton]

yeah Max, this is a Mopar 360, gettin tough to find parts for the AMC line......

[MAXAXE3]

good to hear its a mopar 360, i think you will like it. i will be glad to give you any further assistance if you need help, drop an email.

for our other friends with their opinion of mp parts, understand this. i in NO WAY support or acknowledge MOPAR PERFORMANCE, and have not for several years. their stuff is overpriced for what they have - their small block heads (W2's) are outdated by todays standards, any other small block head (W7-W9) is useless unless your building everything from the ground up with THEIR blocks. i would rather make it myself than buy from them (guess i'm not on their sponsorship short list anymore....lol)
but what i can tell you about their cams this - who builds their stock camshafts for regular engines??????? its the same maker of the mp camshafts...... its the same maker of their roller rocker arms......who is it????? it's not a secret to those in the performance market (racing etc) and has been known for years and years.

it's CRANE - and has been that way for years. they just won't tell you because it's business. are you more likely to buy from them or go directly to CRANE.

and if you remember where CRANE is, DAYTONA, FLORIDA - which is still in the USA.

being that i have worked in the dealerships for 27 years, and race, and build engines, you find a lot of information from the inside.

[lgorton]

nothing wrong with having someone"on the inside" im all for that

there seems to be mixed feelings from those that posted about going with a custom grind vs. something out of the box. but, my biggest problem is i really dont know enough about cams to know what grind i am looking for. i dont have a problem ordering something special nor do i have a problem with buying something that is the "same as everyone else." what i do have a problem with is knowing what to get. sure was alot easier when i was 14 years old and the only cam anyone ever talked about was the infamous ~~3/4 race cam~~lol

[FearThe4Doors]

Jim = Racer Brown?

[MAXAXE3]

camshafts are very difficult and lots of folks have their favorite of what they think is the best. but there is always 1 better that will perform better.

proof of that is - how many cam manufacturers are there?, and for each manufacturer they only 1 camshaft available for each engine because theirs is the best , right ---- not hardly. they have several upon several grinds for each engine for different variations of engine component combinations, torque needs, horsepower needs, lift needs, overlap needs, the list goes on and on.

every factor of your engine ( heads, intake, carb choice, exhaust choice, compression choice ) as well as torque converter choice, differential gear choice, vehicle weight, use choice (daily driver, race only, dual purpose, towing, etc) goes into factoring a cam.

i recommended to you the 284/484 to make it easier for you, at a reasonable price (est. 150.00 w/lifters). if you decide to use it - its a starting point and wont be the cam of all cams, you will need others as you modify your engine for the reasons stated above. but for your engine and just starting out - its a great place to start. emphasis on the word START.....lol

[lgorton]

thanks a bunch.... i appreciate it

[ehostler]

Originally posted by FearThe4Doors
Jim = Racer Brown?

Yes, Jim doyle is Racer Brown

As far as making a choice in profiles goes, If you get with Jim (Racer Brown), he will need to know lots of info, before he can make a recomendation. You will need to know everything possible about the engine, tranny, rear gears, tire size, body weight, and your expectations. From that info, he can either determine the best cam for your application or tell you what the closest is that can be done for your expectations.

[FearThe4Doors]

thanks!

He can grind solid rollers too?

Whats the best way to contact him?

Is he an official set up business or just does this in his basement? (the basement part doesnt scare me, some of the best work comes from the backyard shadetree guys)

[ehostler]

He grinds hydraulic, solid, and roller cams.

This is his contact info from the ultimate phonebook sticky at the top of Preformance talk.

Company: Racer Brown
Contact: Jim Doyle
Phone Number: 410-866-7660
Email: None
Web Site: OLYP
Specialty: Custom Cam Grinding
Location: Baltimore Maryland

Racer Brown is a professional business that has been grinding cams for over 35 years.

If you would like to learn a lot about cams, there is a great article my Racer Brown. The only online place that I have found it, is on a Datsun board. Don't let that concern you, as this is everything that you ever wanted to know about cams (and then some). It uses a Datsun engine as an example, however, the theories are much the same for the larger V8.

Datsun camshaft & valve timing

[dave571]

Holly cow, pack a lunch, when you go to read that.!

[FearThe4Doors]

awesome!! Thanks a trillion, eholster!

the web page doesnt seem to be working though

[FearThe4Doors]

in skimming through his novel....

Enter the turbocharger. The nature of this exhaust-driven supercharger requires a different approach, but not without reasons attached. Normally, effective intake duration can remain about the same as in an unsupercharged engine. If a change is indicated, it will usually be in the direction of later intake valve opening and sometimes later intake valve closing. The biggest change, and one that is relatively enormous, lies in the required effective exhaust valve duration. This should be short, SHORT, S-H-O-R-T! Even a double-throw-down, triple-whammy, flat-out turbocharged race engine for the turbocharger to work most efficiently - should have an effective exhaust valve duration of no more than the mid-270 degree range, very little overlap and as much valve lift as can be conveniently cranked into it, taking the dynamic stability of the exhaust cam lobe at maximum engine speed into consideration. Didn't know that, didja?

Remember: A turbocharger works best as a function of the temperature and velocity of the exhaust gases, and the volume of exhaust gases is secondary. This strongly suggests late exhaust valve opening and early exhaust valve closing so that exhaust gases, in their purest form, can work on the turbo impeller, which is directly connected by the same shaft to the compressor impeller. This doesn't indicate that a turbocharged engine won't function with stock camshafts or those with a relatively long effective exhaust valve durations. It will. But longer exhaust valve durations have drastic effects on the average exhaust gas velocity and temperature. In addition, longer valve overlap periods permit fuel from the pressurised induction system to be pumped out the still-open exhaust valve, lowering exhaust gas temperature and density even further.

I'm not doubting anything Jim says, but thats opposite from everything Ive been told in the Turbo Dodge world. We've always agreed with the small overlap part, but have said you want a LONGER exhaust duration since you're forcing the air in, but nothing forcing it out (besides the piston, but you know what i mean).

any thoughts?

[693404BBL]

Hello,
I'm probably going to get laughed at by this next question, but it's driving me crazy and I've been laughed at before. I've hear the term purple cam bounced around all the time, hell when I bought my dart it had one in it acording to my dad. But I've never known what the actual term "purple cam" ment, cuda66273 I am studing like you told me to and I'll admit after the first chapter "How to hot rod Small block Mopar engines" I was in over my head. Don't even want to talk about cam specs which still has my head spinning. LOL. Back to my question is it a color code specific to hot rod cams or say a certain duration or lift, if so what would the other colors be. Any help will be great. Thanks

[ehostler]

A 'Purple Shaft' cam is a Perfomance cam from MOPAR Performance. They are of outdated designs and are ground by the cheapest bidder. Back in the late 60s & early 70s they were the way to go. They were cheaper than the competition and there wasn't much better. It is now 30+ years later and the purple shaft hasn't been updated.

[rumblefish360]

Just wondering E. How do you know it via the cheapest bidder. I don't have a doubt it is seeing thats the big biz is done.

[693404BBL]

ehostler A 'Purple Shaft' cam is a Perfomance cam from MOPAR Performance. They are of outdated designs and are ground by the cheapest bidder. Back in the late 60s & early 70s they were the way to go. They were cheaper than the competition and there wasn't much better. It is now 30+ years later and the purple shaft hasn't been updated.



Ok. that clears it up. Thanks

[dave571]

Originally posted by 693404BBL
Hello,
I was in over my head. Don't even want to talk about cam specs which still has my head spinning. LOL. . Thanks

Thats the beauty of a custom cam like racer brown. You have an engineer pick what cam is right for you. Not a guess from a book, or the opinion of a guy on the counter at your local speed shop, who probably drives a camaro.

I've heard hughes cams are ground with mopars in mind as well. This is a good thing, but when I called hughes to ask about a cam recommendation, they made one to me before they even knew my compression ratio. Hardly precise.

I'm not knocking hughes stuff here(I know lots of guys have had great success with it), I'm just using that as an example of how cam selection can be screwwed up very easily. Leave it to someone who knows.

As I pointed out in another thread, the RB cam I'm using now, has milder specs than the one I took out, yet the motor breathes better, up top and down low. More horse power... and more torque. Does it get any better?

[ehostler]

Originally posted by rumblefish360
Just wondering E. How do you know it via the cheapest bidder. I don't have a doubt it is seeing thats the big biz is done.

That's how MOPAR PErformance is doing all of their parts. They bid out for a fixed contract. Lowest bid wins. Just prior to the contract expiring, they will do another bid out and again, go with the lowest bidder.