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  #1  
Old 10-12-2003, 01:28 AM
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d.friction d.friction is offline
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Default Filling the Block?

When do you get to the point when you need to fill your block? Is there a majic compresion number?
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Old 10-12-2003, 01:50 AM
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Sonic check your block. If you are below .170" NA on the thrust side, you will need to fill it. Use the epoxy bloc fill, not concrete. If blown, nitrous, etc talk to your supplier for advice on how thin the cylinder wall can be for the set up they have given you. Also, if you like running a close ring end gap, you will want to open it, especially if you run a stainless or tool steel top ring.
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Old 10-12-2003, 02:11 AM
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The block was sonic checked on the last rebuild but I dont know the specs. I am changing the piston and rods and adding new main caps and studs so I tought this might be the best time to fill the block if need be. It was recomended to me when I ask the builder about going to the 13.5 14.0 to 1 range, but he didn't say why.
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Old 10-12-2003, 11:59 AM
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You might be borderline. The added CR most likely means your going to make more serious power which will load the cylinder wall more. I would have to assume that a good engine man knows what he's working with. If he recommended it before and now your stepping up, I would have a tendency to go with his recommendation.
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Old 10-12-2003, 07:15 PM
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perfmachst perfmachst is offline
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hello, go with the hard block filler from hard block. the epoxy's tend to loosen up and do not support the walls. the hard block filler is the best stuff out there. my block was filled six years ago. walls have not moved or grout come loose. good luck
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Old 10-12-2003, 07:39 PM
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I've heard of Hard Blok before, but never used it. Just checked out their web site. It looks pretty good. Do you know if they have product samples?

We ran a slow setup epoxy fillier back in the 90s for about the same time without the problems mentioned, that we could tell? How heavy is it?

Thanks
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Old 10-12-2003, 08:44 PM
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hello, don't know about samples. I tested mine in a tapered glass, top being smaller than bottom. it did not crack or break the glass. which means no shrink or expansion. weight? added about 20 LBs. benifits?? better ring seal, no more ring marks at top or bottom of bores. you do have to run more piston / wall clearance. mine was worth a tenth.
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Old 10-12-2003, 08:56 PM
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They say to fill the block just above the freeze plugs??
My machinest said fill the block before you do any of the other machine work..But will the Hard block break down in the hot tank?
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  #9  
Old 10-12-2003, 10:05 PM
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Thanks.
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  #10  
Old 10-12-2003, 10:06 PM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
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Default Fill sequence

Here is what I am doing.

Hot tank and clean the water jacket real good.
Fit main caps to block and torque.
Fill block.
Bolt on heads before filler sets if filling to the top.
Align hone mains.
Deck & bore.


Billy
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  #11  
Old 10-13-2003, 02:03 AM
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hello, why do you have to align hone the mains after filling the block?? one thing you left out, is, after hot tanking, install soft plugs, fill block to the level you want with water. ,drain it out into a bucket, mark the level in the bucket. this way you don't under mix or over mix the grout. good luck,
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  #12  
Old 10-13-2003, 03:09 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I have used hard block and the MOROSO stuff in some engines. The reason fo using it is to support the cylinder walls so that they flex less, it is also said to be able to tie some harmonics out of the block and help it last. The compression ratio is not the dictating factor wether to use it or not. I have used partial fills, from the bottom of the freeze plugs to the tops of them, but we have street cars. A little above the bottom of the freeeze plugs doesn't seem to affect cooling anyhow. Filling it higher to the tops of the freeze plugs seems to make oil run hotter in continuous driving, but the water temps are still in control. Machining should be done after the filling, especially honing. It will change the shape of the cylinders when it dries, have measured this.
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  #13  
Old 10-13-2003, 06:55 PM
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So how many horses is a motor good for if you fill below the plugs? and how many above? or doesnt anyone really know..
Once you hardblock you cant remove the freeze plugs..
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  #14  
Old 10-13-2003, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HookVIP
So how many horses is a motor good for if you fill below the plugs? and how many above? or doesnt anyone really know..
Once you hardblock you cant remove the freeze plugs..
That depends on the block. Once the cylinder walls are either thick enough or braced enough, my experience has been the webbing behind the main saddles become the next weekest point. I've seen "minor" cases where a webbing section cracks, and catostrophic cases where the block split in half.
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  #15  
Old 10-13-2003, 09:04 PM
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So just to be safe I think Ill fill just above the plugs..Hardblock comes in a 2 part section so you make sure you use the same amount in both sides which is kool..So roughly Ill fill half the water passage so I can still keep the motor for overheating..
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  #16  
Old 10-13-2003, 09:15 PM
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Sounds reasonable. How much HP are you planning on?
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  #17  
Old 10-13-2003, 10:00 PM
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Not sure..511 cubes with B1 heads..Anyone got a rought idea with around a 650 lift shaft?
Its going in my 74 Dart sport that weighs right now 3240 gonna 4 link it with a 9 inch..Guy is supposed to get me a Dana 60 case from Lansing but whos to say when..
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2003, 10:48 PM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
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perfmachst, you did fill in a few blanks for me. I do measure by prefilling the block with water as to not mix up too little or too much of the stuff.

I don't align hone just because I fill a block, but I do fill the block before I send it to the shop for any machine work. On the last engine I put together, I built the #2, 3, and 4 caps with canted outer bolts. The caps were installed with .0015 to .002" hone stock about the center line of the crank. I filled the block with the caps on so the block is in the assembled stressed nature. I then sent the block off to be align honed and bored. That is why I posted in the order I did on my previous post.

Billy
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  #19  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HookVIP
Not sure..511 cubes with B1 heads..Anyone got a rought idea with around a 650 lift shaft?
Its going in my 74 Dart sport that weighs right now 3240 gonna 4 link it with a 9 inch..Guy is supposed to get me a Dana 60 case from Lansing but whos to say when..
If you can give me flow numbers on the head, @.050, @200 (if you have it), LSA, Int CL I can give a pretty good ball park along with some header and intake recommendations. The folks ore versed in Mopar blocks will be able to tell if the block will hold up.

Your combo sounds similar to a fella that we used to race with. It ran 9.40s, but had a glass front end...still pretty good! Found a pic!
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File Type: jpg howard_1.jpg (59.3 KB, 23 views)
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  #20  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:26 PM
HookVIP HookVIP is offline
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I thinnk the number are on Brodix.com I cant find my spec sheet!crapola!
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  #21  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:33 PM
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I can check in my Brodix catalog! Did you get them standard or CNC ported?...any special package (out of box, "minor port", "complete port")?

Then all we need is the cam info.
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  #22  
Old 10-14-2003, 08:30 PM
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Ill be getting them out of the box..The flow numbers I have seen show they flow more that an Indy 440-1 max ported..That allows for upgrade in the future..
I was gonna run a solid camshaft with around a 312 duration and 650 or so lift..Ill look to see what ultradyne offers and let ya know..thanks
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  #23  
Old 10-14-2003, 08:46 PM
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I don't think you'll find their catalog on-line anymore. You can try emailing Shaun on the Ultrdyne thread I posted. Let me know what he suggests? Have you thought of a roller?

P.S. I've got a copy of the catalog in Word format...masters only...Mopar flat tappets too!
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  #24  
Old 10-14-2003, 09:38 PM
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Hmm well everyone is steering me towards roller but they are gosh darn expensive..But I guess it would last longer that a solid..I seen a comparison in a mag in a crate 360 and the roller didnt really offer much improvement..But alot of these guys have probably used both and would know which would work better in my combination...
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  #25  
Old 10-14-2003, 10:30 PM
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Well, it makes sense that the best flat tappet is probably better than a roller that is off target. You'll make more hp with the correct roller.
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  #26  
Old 10-15-2003, 03:53 AM
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We have an engine like that, although with less stroke and pump gas. Experienced some problems this summer and was late with the schedule already in the beginning so we didn't dyno the engine. Despite of the problems we run 9.8/141 in a leaf springed '69 street valiant through mufflers and with pump gas & DOT tires, weight was in the 3100-3200 range. When we get it back together we'll take the engine to the dyno and I expect it to make around 800 hp. We do have a .75" roller cam in there. BTW, the B1's have 1.7 ratio rockers, so is your mechanical cam rated with 1.5 or 1.7 ratio? I think the flow numbers int he Brodix catalog are a bit inflated, especially the out of the box numbers. Check out the difference in flow between the out of the box form and ported. Our heads are fully ported, but have not been flowed.
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  #27  
Old 10-15-2003, 08:28 AM
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The cam is probably rated at 1.5 but the B1's will most likely use T&D rockers so Im not sure if they are 1.7 ratio..I have to call Koffels and see what kind of price they have compared to Muscle Motors..
Nice numbers for a street car thats about what Im looking to get out of my setup..The only problem Ill have is getting it to the ground thats why Ill go with 4 link..
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  #28  
Old 10-15-2003, 09:17 AM
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I responded on your other post. Yes the roller cam is going to cost you more money initially but if you wipe out just one lobe on your flat tappet cam the damage that creates to the rest of the engine far off sets the cost of the roller cam. Your building a nice engine and I would hate to see you have problems right off the bat. So lets see here Flat tappet cam you know your going to absolutly have to break that cam in on just the outer valve springs. When the engine fires it will immediatley need to be taken to 2500rpm and held their for at least 20 minutes. If those lifters don't start spinning in their bores immediatley you have junk. Then if all goes well reinstall the inner valve springs and if I where you I would treat it the same way fire the engine and take it back up to 2500rpm. With a roller cam start the engine and let it idle. Buy what you want its your money but I personaly am done running flat tappet cams unless I'm build a street engine.
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Old 10-15-2003, 09:30 AM
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I appreciate your input your probably right Ill just have to hunt around for the best deal..MM offers the cams for just 100 bux more that a solid so thats not so bad..Lifters may be a little more..Now do you have to lash a roller often like a solid?
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Old 10-15-2003, 10:53 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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If you have to lash a roller frequently, there's something wrong that must be checked. With a roller cam you also need the expensive roller lifters, propably different length pushrods, a device to hold the cam in the block (usually a cam putton), bronce gear in the oil pump drive axle and more expensive high rate valve springs. Still, like said above it isn't a dumb investment.
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