some questions....

[SK]

greetings all-

well allow to give some info first..

the vehicle is an '83 ply gran fury ,ex- cop car;pursuit vehicle;whatever...

anyhow its got the 318 with 4bbl carter thermoquad...evidently regular ignition(points im guessing?)..not sure of tranny.

ive seen the infamous "HOT ROD" magizine build on the 318 junkyard jewel...ya know the one with a claimed 400+hp doing basically head intake cam work.

id like to know how streetable was that articale in reality?

would aftermarket heads made by like jegs or eddy bring the compression up as did the massive porting/shaving tricks they used?

would running 340 heads yeild better results in that area or would 360 heads?

ive done alota reading here in the last couple days and the concensus seems to be go with 360 heads with 2.02 vavles..so seeking clearification as to why no one suggest 340 heads.

ive also read the various and lenghty post about cams ....seems anything larger then 470 isnt too wise for general "mild" build..so im thinking 455 or about there....

if i went with 360 heads....would porting them help as well? what do stock 360 heads flow?200~cfm?

does anyone know what the stock 4bbl thermoquad is rated at cfm wise for this ply. teen? 600cfm...700?estimates?

ive read that all the police version teens were built with moly rings...true/false?

anyone know where i can get replacement rims (police slotted) for this car?(no luck at the local car graveyard)

ive done alotta work on chevy's in my time and built a few hot /mild 350's.this is my first attempt at a mopar but ive always loved em since taking my driving test in a 70 duster with the /6 and 3 on the floor,so any general information will gladly help....im trying to attain as much info as possible before i go ripping into it.


is there anywhere on the net i can go to see specs of the police type vehicles from ply/dodge?

does anyone know the specs of the rears used in these cars?

was there a specific transmission used or did it vary by year?

was there any heavy duty components used on the police version? i know its got a factory/police transcooler.....stuff along those lines...tougher suspension ?better rear end gearing then stock versions.....anything like that?and evidently the police version has larger rear drums.

all info is greatly appreciated


*and my last dumb question is about this web site....after reading through all the specialty sections for this place and seeing forums for alot of specific vehicles ..why isnt there one for the police editions?...i mean after all they were in production for like 10 years...surely there must be enough floating around in genral population to warrant a section devoted to them as well....

or am i the only one who actually likes the 4 door box car?its solid as hell and can take anything i throw at it,and after i get done building it....its gonna be a great sleeper.....just imagine whos gonna think an old worn out ex cop car has them kinda balls?

anyhow if you've read this far..thanks for any info you can share.

[DartGT66]

I'll try to help a little. First, the question of being streetable is somewhat unclear. According to the parts they used in the junkyard jewel build up, it should be streetable. But it has a lot to do with the rest of the car; you propably have a pretty heavy car with long gears and that is not the best home for a hot cammed 318.

340& 360 heads are basically the same castings, your engine being a 318 four barrell has the 360 heads & intake. They are pretty good for moderate performnce, a small problem is the thermoquad since there is not much tuning parts for it. I would leave the 1.88 intake valves, I think the 2.02's will do no good in this case. The best bet would be finding those '302' castings, pocket& matchport them & equip with 1.88/1.60 valves. It would be very good for your relatively heavy car, converter/gear combo. Same with the cam; with long gears, low stall converter and pretty much weight I would stay with a very small cam. The 318 seems to easily get rid of low end torque with bigger cams, and that's what at least I would like to have in a car like that. A stock 340 cam would be the biggest I would use , would propably be nicer even with a smaller one.

[dwc43]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SK
[B]greetings all-

well allow to give some info first

anyhow its got the 318 with 4bbl carter thermoquad...evidently regular ignition

#1 It has electronic ignition. Points went away in '71 -'72 as they were phased out

id like to know how streetable was that articale in reality?

#2 Not really streetable at all.

would aftermarket heads made by like jegs or eddy bring the compression up as did the massive porting/shaving tricks they used?

#3 No not unless you milled them to or got a set that has 64 cc chambers. Other wise it's a waste of money.

would running 340 heads yeild better results in that area or would 360 heads?


#4. The x head is a 2.02 valved 340 head. The j is a 360 head with either 2.02 or 1.88 valves and they are all the same other than the calce sizes. The U heads are 360 in 1.88 valve onlt Any of these heads with 2.02 intake valves milled to .035 is what you would want on a dailt driver.

ive done alota reading here in the last couple days and the concensus seems to be go with 360 heads with 2.02 vavles..so seeking clearification as to why no one suggest 340 heads.

#5 see #4 answer above.

ive also read the various and lenghty post about cams ....seems anything larger then 470 isnt too wise for general "mild" build..so im thinking 455 or about there....

#6 We have run .484 before and it works fine. My sugestion would be to run a dual pattern cam. It lets the heads breathe better on the exhaust side and gives better low end torque with good mod and top end range. Something in the 268 272 duration range or the next sixe up.

if i went with 360 heads....would porting them help as well? what do stock 360 heads flow?200~cfm?

# 7 Yes a good pocket porting will really help your X or J or U heads wake up.

does anyone know what the stock 4bbl thermoquad is rated at cfm wise for this poly teen? 600cfm...700?estimates?

# 8 The stock thermoquad is rated at 800 cfm. It is the only carb to use. It is very throttle responsive and better on fuel too as long as you keep your foot out of it. It will out perform any holley on the street due to it's better throttle response. If you must use an after market intake use the Weaind Action plus. It's the best for your set up with a thermoquad.

ive read that all the police version teens were built with moly rings...true/false?

#9 True molly coated.

anyone know where i can get replacement rims (police slotted) for this car?(no luck at the local car graveyard)

# 10 E bay and just aboiut anywhere. We have used them in the lower classes at he dirt tracks around here for years since they measure 7.8 wide at he bead and most street stock classes use 8 inch rims only.


is there anywhere on the net i can go to see specs of the police type vehicles from ply/dodge?

# 11 There is but I dont have the url. Do a google search for the info. And there are books available just about police cars. Check your local book stores.

does anyone know the specs of the rears used in these cars?

# 12 Yes. 8 1/4 rear axle. Sure grip in most. 2.94 to 3.23 gears for trooper cars and 3.23 to 3.55 gears for city cars. Most county cars run 2.94 gears.

was there a specific transmission used or did it vary by year?

#13 Most all use the 727 tranny, but as the 89's were being phased out I have seen some with A 999 trannies. Still decent tranny, but not as good as the A 727.

was there any heavy duty components used on the police version? i know its got a factory/police transcooler.....stuff along those lines...tougher suspension ?better rear end gearing then stock versions.....anything like that?and evidently the police version has larger rear drums.

# 14 Sure grip in most. Flat O arch rear hd springs. Rear 7/8 sway bar. HD gas shocks. Front hd torsion bars. 1 1/8 front sway bar. HD gas shocks up frot too. Quicker firmer steering gear box. Tranny cooler, oil cooler, power steering pump cooler. Low gear set first gear int tranny. Firmer tranny shifts with more line pressure. Windage tray and 6 quart oil pan. Molly rings,more lift and duration over a stock cam, but not a lot more. 1.88 to 2.02 valves depending on heads. High flow exhuast, but not a lot better than a stock car in most cases unless it has dual pipes nad some did. CAst iron tq intake with 800 thermoquad just like any other stock 318 340 or 360 came with. That's about all I can think of right off the toip of my head this morning.

all info is greatly appreciated


*and my last dumb question is about this web site....after reading through all the specialty sections for this place and seeing forums for alot of specific vehicles ..why isnt there one for the police editions?...i mean after all they were in production for like 10 years...surely there must be enough floating around in genral population to warrant a section devoted to them as well....


#15. Not sure if there is a big folowing or not. And they were in production for like 50 years not 10. Mopar was the leading seller of patrol cars right up until they stopped production in '89

Hope this helps you out. HAve any more questions let me know.

[rumblefish360]

SK;

Dwc must be tired after that post, I'd like to add a comment or 2 to his long list. (On a norm, his answers are a lot shorter. Today, we trade spots. )

Electronic ignition was standard in '74. You have a lean burn system. Junk it. Anything is better.
Jegs does not make MoPar heads. Theres basicly only (For the small block) MoPar, Edel. Brodix and Indy. The first 2 are it for you since your not racing.
340 - 360 heads are exactly the same in casting, it's the valve size that determines where they came from. The 340 had 2.02 only. The 360 had 1.88's and can accept 2.02's.
Duration has more effect on driving RPM. Lift can be sky high if the springs can handle it AND if the valves don't hit the piston. More lift the merry.
Pocket porting adds 20 - 30 HP thats allways there.
Any suspension components are shot if there OE except probaly the sway bars. Purchase new for this. They'll be better than new old stuff.

[ehostler]

Originally posted by SK
*and my last dumb question is about this web site....after reading through all the specialty sections for this place and seeing forums for alot of specific vehicles ..why isnt there one for the police editions?...i mean after all they were in production for like 10 years...surely there must be enough floating around in genral population to warrant a section devoted to them as well....

or am i the only one who actually likes the 4 door box car?its solid as hell and can take anything i throw at it,and after i get done building it....its gonna be a great sleeper.....just imagine whos gonna think an old worn out ex cop car has them kinda balls?

If we had a special section for cop cars, then we would need a special section for each body style, and then a special section for each drivetrain combo, and the list goes on.

Not many of the old cop cars remain. Most were crushed, at the end of their service life. The remaining units were sold at public auctions for close to nothing and beat up by the new owners. Of course, when they were done with them, they ended up in salvage yards.

The following just isn't that big. That's why you don't see many of them at the big car shows.

[dwc43]

Originally posted by rumblefish360
SK;

Dwc must be tired after that post, I'd like to add a comment or 2 to his long list. (On a norm, his answers are a lot shorter. Today, we trade spots. )

Electronic ignition was standard in '74. You have a lean burn system. Junk it. Anything is better.
Jegs does not make MoPar heads. Theres basicly only (For the small block) MoPar, Edel. Brodix and Indy. The first 2 are it for you since your not racing.
340 - 360 heads are exactly the same in casting, it's the valve size that determines where they came from. The 340 had 2.02 only. The 360 had 1.88's and can accept 2.02's.
Duration has more effect on driving RPM. Lift can be sky high if the springs can handle it AND if the valves don't hit the piston. More lift the merry.
Pocket porting adds 20 - 30 HP thats allways there.
Any suspension components are shot if there OE except probaly the sway bars. Purchase new for this. They'll be better than new old stuff.

Rumble you know better than that. No lean burns on a patrol car. My 88 5th does not havethat either. Wished none of them did. Whew! Tired. Need nap. .....

[SK]

thanks DWC,glad u said something bout that lean burn...i was about to ask if that was the rediculous box attached to the air cleaner assembly on most of these cars in the 80's.

i had at one time an 87 or 86 new yorker 5th ave with the 'teen in it,and it had that system on it...was major pain in da @$$.

and about the cams ...so the 477/480 one used by hot rod mag would work fine then,for intended purpose.

are the heads stamped in the rocker area like chevy heads,so i can find out what i got?

and the car definatly was a city cruiser..the troopers ran caprices and mustangs during the 80' and county ran caprices and crown vicky's.so its likely the 3.23-3.55 gears,sounds good for getting up to going to me.

does the term "sure grip" rear end mean power equally divided to both rear tires?i noticed when i stomp it it does light up both rear tires instead of just one like my old monte carlo did

is "pocket porting" the same as fully ported?clearification please.

what kinda of compression could you guesstimate the "A" commando aluminum cylinder head made by mopar with the 53cc chamber to make?is it worth the price considering its 690- apeice....and seem to come bare.im thinking the machine work on what i got would be way cheaper..but a friend of mine keeps arguing with me just to get aftermarket replacements to do it.

the only heads i seen listed in the jegs catalog from eddy were with 65 cc chambers...would they induce enough compression or would the need milling?at 659 ea. complete doesnt seem to bad a price

other then shaving the heads...would buying the forged pistons that have a slightly raised surface be just as good? or is it more cost effective and easier to just shave the heads?

and would a theroretical build up like this require a stall converter?would it benefit from one?

as far as the production run comment i shoulda been more clear,i was reffering to this body style ('83) im aware mopar made some sweet cruisers who could forget the polara 440...i loved that boat.

and actually it was only in police service for 6 years and the second owner that bought it at auction had regualr maintance stuff done...replaced ball joints and both u joints and the HD gas shocks ft/rr and front end bushings as well....so its still pretty tight...dont think ill bother with the suspension much for now.

lol mister moderator i was just thinking general cop car section is all....but i see the logic of your post aswell.

and a big thanks to you DWC & rumblefish;i very much appreciate the information...turns out ive got a better deal on this car then i thought i did...and its got loads of potential.

think ima have more fun with this then i did that '77 monte carlo i just built.other then the higher prices this ones gonna be easier to hop up too.

[SK]

and just found this:

Most Diplomat 318 squads seem to have been fitted with a standard two-barrel carburetors, as well as the usual electrical, suspension, and transmission upgrades, for use as detective cars and low-performance patrol duty. The four-barrel carburetor added some power. The 318 was dropped from car use before the Magnum head, cam, manifold, and fuel injection treatment raised it from 130-150 hp to 230 hp. The Lean Burn system was also common; some have recommended replacing it with a Mopar Performance electronic ignition system (with standard spark advance controls) due to its tendency to fail with age.

so rumblefish wasnt entirely wrong about lean burn cruisers...this was taken from here http://www.allpar.com/squads/diplomat.html

but if its that box crap that usually says leanburn on it attached to aircleaner..then nope mine aint got it.

and this also:

The heavy-duty A-727 automatic transmission appears to have been dropped in 1983, leaving the capable, for most uses, A-904 in its place

taken from same site....dunno as to accuracy of it though

[dwc43]

Originally posted by SK
thanks DWC,

and about the cams ...so the 477/480 one used by hot rod mag would work fine then,for intended purpose.

# 1 A little big but it could be used. I'd look for a size smaller if it was me.

are the heads stamped in the rocker area like chevy heads,so i can find out what i got?

#2 Yes there is a casting number on the raised runner under the valve covers. If they are X,J,U heads there will be a big letter between the sparg plugs.

and the car definatly was a city cruiser..the troopers ran caprices and mustangs during the 80' and county ran caprices and crown vicky's.so its likely the 3.23-3.55 gears,sounds good for getting up to going to me.

# 3 Good for you. Check the tag or pull the cover and get the gear ratio off of it and make sure.

does the term "sure grip" rear end mean power equally divided to both rear tires?i noticed when i stomp it it does light up both rear tires instead of just one like my old monte carlo did

# 4 Sure grio is what the chebby people call posi travion ecept mopars work better. If it light both tires I'm sure you have one too.

is "pocket porting" the same as fully ported?clearification please.

# 5 No it's not fully ported. It opens up the thoats under the valves and is worth a lot on stock x,j,anfd u heads. Also a 3 angle valve job helps too and a 4 angle would be better.

what kinda of compression could you guesstimate the "A" commando aluminum cylinder head made by mopar with the 53cc chamber to make?is it worth the price considering its 690- apeice....and seem to come bare.im thinking the machine work on what i got would be way cheaper..but a friend of mine keeps arguing with me just to get aftermarket replacements to do it.

#6 Way too much for pump gas. Use the x,j,or u heads and if you must buy something use the edels for now.

the only heads i seen listed in the jegs catalog from eddy were with 65 cc chambers...would they induce enough compression or would the need milling?at 659 ea. complete doesnt seem to bad a price

#7 The edels will be fine at 65cc. The springs will need changing to match the cam you get anyway. That is very imnportant. You very seldom ever buy a vomplete head that has springs to match your cam so you see some times bare heads cost the same as complete heads since the springs must be changed in them too.

other then shaving the heads...would buying the forged pistons that have a slightly raised surface be just as good? or is it more cost effective and easier to just shave the heads?

# 8 Easier to mill the heads. Flat tops have a better flame front or travel avross them than dome or stepped pistons and will make more power, until the domes are reworked correctly and then they will out do the flat tops. For street use flat tops. Keith Black has good pistons for the price. Use an .018 ring gap on top ring and .016 on the second ring no matter what they say to use. I use them in our dirt track engines and they live to this day.

and would a theroretical build up like this require a stall converter?would it benefit from one?

# 9 If you want to use that big cam it will need a converter. No way around it. Go to www.tciauto.com and get one from them as well as your shift kits and other tranny parts. It's the only thing we use when we run auto's. You want find a better trans company than TCI. Be arounf since '68 I think.

as far as the production run comment i shoulda been more clear,i was reffering to this body style ('83) im aware mopar made some sweet cruisers who could forget the polara 440...i loved that boat.

# 10 not a prob.

and a big thanks to you DWC & rumblefish;i very much appreciate the information...turns out ive got a better deal on this car then i thought i did...and its got loads of potential.

think ima have more fun with this then i did that '77 monte carlo i just built.other then the higher prices this ones gonna be easier to hop up too.

I answered all your question in number order snce it was easier that way and I would not miss any of them. I have my old cruiser from when it was retired. Hope to get it back in shape some day. Let me know if you have any more questions on it.

[dwc43]

Originally posted by SK
and just found this:

Most Diplomat 318 squads seem to have been fitted with a standard two-barrel carburetors, as well as the usual electrical, suspension, and transmission upgrades, for use as detective cars and low-performance patrol duty. The four-barrel carburetor added some power. The 318 was dropped from car use before the Magnum head, cam, manifold, and fuel injection treatment raised it from 130-150 hp to 230 hp. The Lean Burn system was also common; some have recommended replacing it with a Mopar Performance electronic ignition system (with standard spark advance controls) due to its tendency to fail with age.

so rumblefish wasnt entirely wrong about lean burn cruisers...this was taken from here http://www.allpar.com/squads/diplomat.html

but if its that box crap that usually says leanburn on it attached to aircleaner..then nope mine aint got it.

and this also:

The heavy-duty A-727 automatic transmission appears to have been dropped in 1983, leaving the capable, for most uses, A-904 in its place

taken from same site....dunno as to accuracy of it though

That site is somewhat accurate. And that's the one I was looking for. I have driven a few of these over the years and have never seen a 2 bbl version police car. Now a car could be vought with the poice package and have a 2 bbl for civilan use, but that's not a cruiser now is it. See thay did not tell you that. And the police cruisers never used the A 904 they used the A 999 which is a beefed up heavier duty version of the A 904 though.

[SK]

truely thanks alot DWC;

that sets my mind at ease on alot of things.im going to have the 360 heads its got now reworked...gonna be cheaper and more effective i think.and get the 2.02 valves if there only 1.88's now.

only issue ive got left is the lean burn crap...according to that site some cruisers were lean burn....they didnt have it attached to aircleaner housing tho...it was placed up under the dash in front of the driver...something about 2 leads going to distributor is how u can tell from under the hood;gotta check that out when i get a chance......

im thinking either way couldnt hurt to go with that MP orange box gimmick reguardless.

and ive pretty much decided on a cam bout in the 460 range...and more then likely a torque converter.

thanks for the tip about the tag on rear axle housing..id forgotten about that.

on the intake u suggested weaind action plus...would the stealth be a good choice or just overkill?

...got a suggestion for headers? basic will work,nothing too fancy ..im not hitting car shows and stuff; just killing ricers,they think my monte carlo was mean...wait till i get this one done

and i totally missed DART66's reply....some good points to note;if it doesnt go well with my current plan..atleast ill have an idea as to why.

[sbknut]

Take a peek at the tranny pan just below the dipstick, if the side is smooth it's a 904 series. If there is a kick out to the right it is 727-something, don't the right numbers. I pulled a 727 version from an 82 crusier and it had "high stall lock-up" printed on the convertor. Years ago I used at split duration, 268-272, in a 318 3800lb "B-Body" it pulled very strong, 14.90 with 3.55 gears, just for what it's worth. ???

[dwc43]

Originally posted by SK
truely thanks alot DWC;

that sets my mind at ease on alot of things.im going to have the 360 heads its got now reworked...gonna be cheaper and more effective i think.and get the 2.02 valves if there only 1.88's now.

# 1 Good choice there.

only issue ive got left is the lean burn crap...according to that site some cruisers were lean burn....they didnt have it attached to aircleaner housing tho...it was placed up under the dash in front of the driver...something about 2 leads going to distributor is how u can tell from under the hood;gotta check that out when i get a chance......

# 2 It should not have lean burn. And lean burn was always on the air cleaner. All eletronic distributors have two leads. Some lean burns used two leads or four leads with a dual pick up distributor. Use the two lead dist. and get you an msd 6al. It's far better than the orange box. The orange box has a high failure rate too. Go msd it will cost you about hte same anyways.

and ive pretty much decided on a cam bout in the 460 range...and more then likely a torque converter.

# 3 just make sure you go with a dual pattern cam. It will work better for you.

thanks for the tip about the tag on rear axle housing..id forgotten about that.

# 4 Any time, that's what we are all here for, to help out.

on the intake u suggested weaind action plus...would the stealth be a good choice or just overkill?

#5 the action plus is much better for your combo. I have three of them in use now on 360's. It works well with the thermoquad too. Just dont use those little 650 quadrajunks from chebby. They are too small.

...got a suggestion for headers? basic will work,nothing too fancy ..im not hitting car shows and stuff; just killing ricers,they think my monte carlo was mean...wait till i get this one done

#6 Hooker or Hedmans 1 5/8 street headers with 2 1/4 for 318 or 2 1/2 for 360. Use a new merge X pipe. See www.drgas.com and you will wee ths merg x pipe from the ones that developed it. It's good for low end tq and will add several hp too. And get a good set of flowmaster mufflers too. Header wrap will really lower under hood temps for a denser fuel charge and a little extra hp due to lower temps and better scavaging.

Let us know how your comming along and if you have any more questions or e mail me some time at ********************

[SK]

will do DWC

went by machine shop that did my 350 work last december and he quoted me 500 for millin heads and pocket/matchporting them...seemed bout 100 more then shoulda been...think ima remind him of the 1800 i spent with him last year...might get a lil better price.

gonna start tearing into it tomorrow,should get almost down to doing the head removal if all goes well;in the time i got for it.

thanks to everyone who posted here given information....it truely makes workin on something alot easier if you know what the project needs along the way to get the results you want.

and ill be back...

and just off hand whattya think of this cam :
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...html#Nostalgic

[dwc43]

Originally posted by SK
will do DWC

and ill be back...

and just off hand whattya think of this cam :
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...html#Nostalgic

Kinda big. It will loose some bottom end since it does not start to work till 2500. I would check crane or comp cams first. I think comps extreme series is made for the larger mopar lifters too. Right now we have a custom crane cam in one of my racecars that we designed on the computer. Reason I chose them was because they had a cam simular to what I wanted and we used that cam blank to grind ours from. Comp or crane an custom grind you one, but I'd stick with an inhouse dual pattern a little smaller than what you looked at. And there's nothing nostalgic about that cam. It never came in a stock mopar from any year.

[Fury Boy]

I would run the XE262 or 268.... Leaning towards the 262 cam


I would also keep the 1.88 valves! I've heard of clearance problems running 2.02s.

Make sure you get good springs put on your heads that will work with the cam.

That's all I got to say.

[dwc43]

There are no clearance problems with 2.02 valves. We ran them on dirt track engines using X or J heads and have turned them 6800 with a problem. They will fit both 318 and 360 with stock heads with up to .509 lift without any problems.

The 268 would be a better cam than the 262. The 262 gets too close to stock lift and wont pull as hard as the 268 with a stock high stall converter.

[SK]

thanks fury but all mopar sb heads have the same valve spacing so 2.02's will fit and even 2.08's wont hit...however its a good idea to chamfer (notch) the bore to help with shrouding ...

in any event....that cam was an idea...would likely be too expensive any how being a lunati... crane has one i believe im going with...cant remember specs now tho...but looked good something like 272/280 duration and 460something lift.

--thanks all.

[dwc43]

That cam sounds more like what you might need there.