FUEL PUMPS for 550 HP +?

[dacuda]

for those of you running big horsepower,what kind of pumps are you using?and why.i stopped by the barry grant booth today and it was suggested i switch to a better pump than my holley and curious what my options are before dumping $500+ on a killer pump setup if the benefits are marginal.i want long life and good dependable performance ,im not trying to win races.

[Mister Fiberglass]

HELL....a good mechanical with a 3/8 line should all that be really necessary. OR a very good starting point. Maybe in addition - NOTHING more than a decent 60$ electric pusher should be the MAX required.

$500 ??.........try about a THIRD of that --- MAX.

These people who try and OVERSELL you and drain your wallet should be tarred and feathered ....or at the very least EXPOSED ....for the Bumz that they are !!

[wildcargo]

I run a carter 100GPH pump and 3/8 line I have not had it nose over in the traps and I am running 130+mph but like you I am looking to upgrade I am looking at the Aeromotive pump #11203 and reg #13205 afte going to there web site and reading there teck and seeing that the pump puts out 125gph at 9#psi most pumps are rated at free flow I don't want to over kill it and I a very cheep to

[Mister Fiberglass]

Why even THINK of a new fuel delivery combo IF you have never had any problems OR actually checked the fuel pressure ??

If you have 5 to 6 psi in-the-eyes........leave it alone. It ain't BROKE !! It does not need fixin' !!

[dacuda]

thanks for the input MR. F but i want real combos of what people are using ,not what they think i should use.i do happen to disagree with you on your suggestions.a 600 hp motor would starve by your recommendations.i already run a popular combo but am curious of what others run cuz i feel it might be too small.spendin the money doesnt scare me i just dont want what i dont need

[Bagherra]

Hi dacuda,
I am currently using a BG 220 RR
(specs on the pump...
•Flows over 220 gph
•Compatible with 12 or 16 volts
•–10 AN inlet and outlets
•Lifetime Labor warranty and Free

Flow-testing
•Draws only 9 amps at 15 volts
•Adjustable Bypass

(recommended pressure-15 to 17 psi)
•Weighs only 3-3/4 lbs
•Dimensions: 5-3/4" tall x 5")

with the BG filter and 2 port regulator. It's all plumbed with braided line from Earl's (which is in Indy ).

Don Gould (cuda66273) set me up with the pump and the other BG goodies. I got it based on his recommendations.

I can give engine specs if you need it, but it is a 440. I have yet to get the car actually dynoed, but a desktop dyno says it is 538 HP. It is most likely between 450-500 HP. Engine used to push 650 HP, but the compression was lowered for pump gas. It is mostly street driven now.

Other than the noise, the pump works great. I can barely hear the noise over the exhaust though.

Was the pump costly? Sure.
Does it do the job? Yes, no fuel starvation. Fuel pressure is a steady 7 at idle feeding a Mighty D

[Mister Fiberglass]

STARVE for fuel with a good "hemi" mechanical pump, a 3/8 fuel line and a econo electric pusher pump .... ??

........ you are uNcorrect.

[dacuda]

i hate to burst your bubble mr f but ive already had 2 "hemi " mechanicals crap out and leave me stuck on dark roads in the middle of nowhere with a mild 400 hp motor.now i run a 600hp motor and experience tells me i might need something better.im not going to argue with you about this .like i asked in the begining,i want to know who runs what,not opinions of what people think i should run.and with that said thanks again for your "OPINION"


thanks bagherra for your info .i run a similar setup with @50-75 more hp and barry grant suggested their mighty enduro pump for my application with a demon 850 i currently have.seems like a great pump but the price of $400 makes me wonder if they just want to sell me over priced stuff

bagherra,please tell me what kind of cam you have and the specs on it also.its also been suggested i might be a bit over carburated also but our setups are close so maybe im better off than i thought

[fastmopars .inc]

you can't overcarb a 440 with only an 850, i just recently switched to a 950 in my 440 and performance went up all through the rpm range.

[Bagherra]

Originally posted by dacuda
thanks bagherra for your info .i run a similar setup with @50-75 more hp and barry grant suggested their mighty enduro pump for my application with a demon 850 i currently have.seems like a great pump but the price of $400 makes me wonder if they just want to sell me over priced stuff

bagherra,please tell me what kind of cam you have and the specs on it also.its also been suggested i might be a bit over carburated also but our setups are close so maybe im better off than i thought

Here you go dacuda...
Cam is a Racer Brown ST 21
Duration at 50 306
Advertised 272
Lift at 1.5:1 560
Lift at 1.6:1 597

If you wanted a second opinion on the BG pumps (which one would be good for you) you can talk with Don (www.4secondsflat.com), he is a BG expert.

He sells them so you might be leary about it, but he at least sells people what they need and does not upgrade them needlessly (or at least that has been my experience). He'll be back on Monday if you wanted to call or email him.

Hope this helps. BTW, your car sounds nice...got any pics?

[Mister Fiberglass]

Well Mark.....I have the same "hemi" Carter pump on my 62 that I put on it in the 70's.

You having two pumps CRAP OUT on you is a BUMMER but don't blame that on ALL mechanical pumps.

And your 600 hp motor will NOT need all the fuel that the system that I suggested will deliver ..........

that is NOT an opinion - that is a FACT.

Now what you buy - is OK by me and I am sure ANYBODY here.

And BELIEVE THIS....most people DO want to oversell you stuff.

Period.

[gsmopar]

I'm not going to get into an "opinion" argument again. Therefore, here is what I've run and my experience:

MP Mechanical: Crap! Car died in second gear at WOT.

Holley Red: Good street pump. Ran my 11:1 440 with MP 292 cam. I suggest a regulator because the pump has enough pressure to stick the needle and seat on a holley.

Holley Blue: Upgraded to a dual pump system when I "freshend up" the engine. This pump fed dual holley carbs on top of a 13.5:1 446 with a Crane roller cam. I also ran the red pump on a seperate fuel system with a 175 shot of Nitrous.

Summit Racing Billet Electrical pump: Awsome! I'm currently running this pump feeding a single Holley 1150 Dominator. It's feeding through 1/2 inch fuel line with a 3/8 inch return (holley regulator. BTW, still running the above mentioned Holley Red pump for the nitrous system.

Conclusion: NO issues with any of the above mentioned electric pumps other than the Red needing a regulator. A single holley blue will comfortable feed a 3500lb mopar into the 10's.

Later,

Greg

[Mister Fiberglass]

ONE last point........I am not trying to sell you a THING.

What I suggest is on a buds car that runs hi tens. And there has never been any fuel issues with that car at all.

And fuel pressure at idle means little or nothing. What matters is your fuel pressure IN HIGH GEAR in the traps......at WOT.

[DartGT66]

I have a Mallory 140 gph pump in my 700+ hp BB. It seems to be enough. Fuel consumption at full power in the dyno was about 40-50 gallons per hour, so it seems to me that most people have more than enough fuel supply in their cars.

[jleilich]

I have the carter mechanical pump also with 3/8 line, dont know what HP im putting out but im running mid to high 11's,, I figure im putting out close to 530hp???????? the carter pump works just fine for me, never had a problem.
Its easy to use,
no extra wireing
You do need a regulator with this pump however , but the 25 dollar holley regulator will work fine.

[Mopardad]

My 2 sons combos,
Daytona 440; went 9.20 -148 on the spray, BG400 pump, -12 line cell to pump, -10 line to a BG 4 port reg, -6 line to each carb bowl, feeds a seperate regulator for the N2O fuel side

Aspen 360; went 11.04 - 122, BG 280 pump, -10 line cell to pump, -10 line to a BG 2 port reg, -6 line to ea. carb bowl.

no one sold them their fuel systems, could they get away with a smaller system, maybe, will there systems be big enough if they "step up" yeah, do they worry about fuel pressure thru the lights, nope don't even have a gauge where they could see it, a system that is too small is one of those things that doesn't always show up until it is changed, kinda hard to try to tune a car with a setup like that.

Doc F try blowing air out your mouth with your lips shut, thats pressure, now try with your lips open, thats flow, notice how hard it is too keep up the flow with your lips open??? Maybe you need a larger pump!!

[Mister Fiberglass]

BUTTTT Md.....why not let the fuel-pressure-in-the-lights be the judge ??

And as far as your "flow" and "pressure" examples ??....... TRY pushing ALL that fuel that you are talking about THROUGH those lines WITH the G-forces that you have to deal with through first and second gear.

You HAVE to have a LARGE pump to do that....just in itself.

[Mopardad]

Doc, fuel pressure & volume are 2 different things. My example points out how easy it is to maintain pressure when flow is restricted as well as shows how it is harder to maintain volume under free flow conditions. Think about one of those little 12v air compressors, they will easily make 150psi if the volume of air is restricted. and Doc with the larger pumps they will easily push the fuel thru that resistance while maintaining a higher flow rate. Try that with a Carter or lower cost Holley pump sometime. Fuel line sizing contributes to pump sizing as well as a number of other things but that alone certainly doesn't make it ok to run a small line size so that the pump will keep after, here again its flow I'm talking about.

What I suggest is on a buds car that runs hi tens. And there has never been any fuel issues with that car at all.

I run a carter 100GPH pump and 3/8 line I have not had it nose over in the traps and I am running 130+mph but like you I am looking to upgrade I am looking at the Aeromotive pump #11203 and reg #13205 afte going to there web site and reading there teck and seeing that the pump puts out 125gph at 9#psi most pumps are rated at free flow

Why would Bud be thinking about a upgrade if there has "never been any fuel issues at all", your words

[Mister Fiberglass]

Md.....volume and pressure are the SAME ....through a given passage.

And about my Bud.......when did I say anything about him wanting an upgrade ?

[cuda66273]

Fuel for thought...I'm tired of this arguement....I have to debate this subject every day...

1. Fuel Pressure is nothing more than a measurement of restriction.

2. Do you think you car uses more fuel at full load at 6000 RPM in high gear or 6000 RPM in 1st gear?

3. Random Statements about fuel consumption based on dyno numbers is a poor way at best to choose the correct Volume of pump required.

4. The G force on the fuel in the line is a critical factor in determining the correct pump.

5. Gear Ratio's and piston acceleration rates are another factor.

6. Modern inertia dyno's have taught us allot about fuel requirements, pay attention to the Guy's with $$$1/2 million invested in test equipment and listen to their findings, this stuff is not hocus pocus or guessing...or worst of all..."I've always run this"

Here's a test, if you have a 10 second car and it burns 1 gal of fuel to make a pass does it not make sence that the pump needs to deliver at least 1 gallon in 10 seconds?

So pull off the fuel line at the carb and stick it into a 1 gallon container and hit the switch, can your pump deliver 1 gallon in 10 seconds???

...and yes there's other factors in the dead reckoning fuel consumption...

Burn-out...return .lane ....Staging lanes....

So the basic rule of thumb for correct fuel pump sizing is based on the time needed for the system to flow 1 gallon of fuel:

13 second car....35 seconds
12 " 30 Seconds
11 " 25 Seconds
10 " 20 "
9 " 15 "

Doesn't matter what or whose pump you use as long as it can keep up to these numbers you probably have enough fuel.

If your pump meets these flow requirementrs and your pressure falls off then the pump is weak and is probably not able to pump against the G force and weight of the fuel and should be upgraded or replaced at least.

Think more about pressure...it's a measurment of the line presure between the gauge and the pump, your float bowls could be sucked dry and you could in theroy still have 6-7 PSI of pressure if the engine can pull harder than the pump can supply.

Mopar Dad's car is set up exactly the way I would do it, and if he was to preform the Gallon per second test he would pass with flying colors.

I run a BG 280 Pump on my little motor and I have enough fuel to take me into the 10's.

The new Enduro BG pump is a good to 750 HP CONTINUOUS DUTY street strip applications....Excellent piece and is worth every dime ...but only if you need that type of fuel delivery....If Richard at the BG Booth recommended an Enduro then I wouold have a tendancy to do what he says....I beieve he has more knowledge, experience and testing FACTS than anyone on this board....

[Mister Fiberglass]

JUST to touch on a few of your comments.......

The motor does NOT use more fuel ON the big-end but fuel-starvation will be more noticeable UP there.....since you have a full bowl of fuel in the carb near the starting line.

G-force ?....that is what I said before.......and going TOOOO big on fuel line is uNnecessary and costly.

Butttt - if someone wants to spend 700$ on a fuel system when a 100$ one will work fine......GO for it.

I am not trying to sell anything - I have no financial "axe" to grind.

[cuda66273]

As I said

"Fuel for thought"
...no arguement just a few thoughts and a few laws of basic Physics.

My opinion....I'd rather have big lines and a stout pump than small lines and a marginal pump.

I see lot's of nice Hot Rods with $700 stereo's, $2000 in Wheels and tires, $8000 in Paint, $1000 in engine chrome, $8000 in a stout motor and a $89 fuel system to feed it......

[Mister Fiberglass]

That's cool !!

but I have seen people put a 14" tire on a car (when a 9" is MORE than enough) and actually SLOW the car down !!

I am not suggesting that this will happen with a over-kill fuel delivery system....but it will "slow" your finances a tad !

[Mopardad]

Mopar Dad's car is set up exactly the way I would do it, and if he was to preform the Gallon per second test he would pass with flying colors.

The Daytona will fill a gallon so quick its hard to time it accurately. Lets just say its plenty fast enough. The fuel system was put in as shown in the back of the BG catalog. Doc you can put your small pump small line on your car but when it doesn't perform like it should & your scratching your ass trying to figure out why cause everything looks fine or your ready to step it up a bit but the fuel system is too small, just take the keys & give them a pitch because you've already convinced youself you don't need anything but what you have.

[Mister Fiberglass]

Originally posted by Mopardad


The Daytona will fill a gallon so quick its hard to time it accurately.

when it doesn't perform like it should & your scratching your ass trying to figure out why

Well then - why don't you "invest" in a TF fuel delivery system and NEVER have to EVER worry about it ?? I would venture a guess that if your system delivers THAT kind of volumn.....that you are trying to supply your engine with TWICE what the motor could EVER use.

And ME ?......scratching ?? LOL ......... my SPECIFIC fuel system that I have on my 62 is as follows.........

A OEM Mopar "hemi" mech pump that I got WAY back when. 3/8 alum fuel line from front to back.......a OLD S/W clicker type 12 pump and a stock 5/16 pickup.

This combo has run as quick/fast as 11.86 @ 119 mph. AND I have NEVER seen fuel pressure less than 6 psi --- EVER.

AND - I have run the car AT THE TRACK........and forgot to turn the electric on..........this means that the mechanical is pulling THROUGH the electric ........ and it fell off to about 3 psi.

JUST my experience.

And on my front-engine dragster?..........The planned HI-tech system ??........a 3/8 line and a stone-stock USED fuel pump off of a junker motor !!! Now if that doesn't work - I WILL change it !! I just MIGHT get-off a couple of bux and buy a new Auto Zone "stocker" mechanical for a New Yorker !!

Your thoughts ??

[cuda66273]

There is no point in discussing this, you have already convinced yourself that your system is correct and the engineers and all their slide rules, dyno's and computers are full of $hit.

This is not an argueable point, if you put a good fuel delivery system on the car it will probably run quicker and at the very least more consistantly, your EGT would probably drop and air quality or AD would have less of an effect on your ET.

Check out a Race Pak Computer and look at the EGT and pump pressure numbers these guy's can tell you within a gram of fuel what they consumed and what they needed at any given split second on the pass.

Look at the very successful racers, snoop around the S/Stock, S/Eliminator and Super Street pits and see what there running.

Strange how all the pro's run what you would consider vastly overrated and un-needed fuel delivery systems.

I've seen Guy's run 1 5/8 headers on a 502 Chevy and swear that they work perfect.....any fool (Unless he's wearing a Bowtie) knows that a 502 needs 4.75 header tubes, dual fart pipes and a wing...a big wing made from Plywood

BTW...the 3 year old was just found safe and returned to her family.....maybe Dr Rightous has a point?

[Mopardad]

Well then - why don't you "invest" in a TF fuel delivery system and NEVER have to EVER worry about it ?? I would venture a guess that if your system delivers THAT kind of volumn.....that you are trying to supply your engine with TWICE what the motor could EVER use.

You know Doc this sounds like a good plan but then I'd have to invest in dual magneto setup to light off all the fuel I'm going be putting thru it, guess my 7Al won't do it.
Course if the fuel teams would use some of your reasoning they wouldn't need those big pumps & lines & could save all that money & just watch their fuel pressure thru the lights & you will have just become the #1 crewcheif in all the land. You did say you would use the "Hemi" mechanical pump didn't you!!

[Mister Fiberglass]

Hay cuda.....I am just saying what works for me and others that I am familiar with.

Slide rules, dynos and 'puters ?........all it takes is a fuel pressure gauge to check YOUR combo out(At THE TRACK) to be sure that it works for YOU.

Md...... do I always watch my FP gauge ??....of course not and it is not even permanently mounted. I just throw it on from time to time to CHECK what is going on. And it is always "right on" !

I have done this probably a dozen times in the many years that I have had my combo together.

And those FUEL TEAMS ??....they ACTUALLY "use" all the fuel that their fuel delivery systems deliver !!