New to Forum - Help me with my 360 Block/727 Tranny

[360CHP]

Greetings!
I came across this site and thought I'd ask away.....
I need your help here. I know nothing about Mopar/Dodge.....
I'm a Camaro guy and I have a 1988 Dodge Diplomat in my driveway that I have been wanting to play with. I'm pretty excited with having this project car but I don't really know what I have to work with. I'm told that I have a 360 with a Torque Flight 727. Let me tell you what I want to do if this engine block has potential and then let me tell you what parts I need and hopefully get some ideas from you guys so I can get my researching mods on a good foot. I'm still an amatuer with engines but I have clear knowledge of putting together bolt-ons but no knowledge of what will be compatible with what. For example, Block meeting the specs of Heads and meeting the specs of tranny, especially with this car.

Here we go. If possible, I would like to build this engine that will be track driven, no daily driver.
I would like to keep up with my cousin's Stang if possible. We have the idea to both create track cars. So far he is ahead on me with this project. He already has the engine and tranny in a 68 Stang. He still has to wait on his 9' rear end and disc brake conversion and he's at a stand still waiting for his rearend. The deadline for completion is Summer 05. He has a 351 Windsor, AFR 185 heads 2.020/1.600, 750 Edel on a Edel performer Dual plane, TCI tranny C6, Comp Cam XR288RF-HR10 (288/294 .555/.576 110 Roller Seat-to-Seat) The shop that built his loaded heads and block guessed that he would put out around 415HP (FLY) @ 4,500K and 480 TQ (FLY).

So if I have a 360 block with this 727 tranny, I want to match and maybe exceed of what his 351 and C6 will put out. So based on the information I have provided, I need some opinions of what I should be looking at with cam/heads that work well with the 727 tranny. Is this even a comparison? 351 C6 vs. 360 727. That's what I would like to know first. Then, what can the 727 tranny handle? And what can the 360 throw out as far as power. I plan on using the stock bottom end if possible and tranny. I need suggestions with the following: Which? Cam, Heads and all of it's components, manifold, carb, distributor, oil pump, and cooling componants like which water pump & radiator that would work well with what you throw out at me.

I was thinking this:
Purple Shaft Cam? power range 2.5K-6K?
Single plain Manifold?
750 Holley
Hooker or Hedman LT headers - might not fit, so Patriot tuck Tight but they are shorties


It would be a great help to hear from you all of what cam and heads you suggest, that would be the most important. And then cooling system and ignition that would support it. For cooling I think I have that down, but Ignition...might need some help. Anyhow, hope to hear from ya...

Thanks much,

Mike

[MoparMarcIdaho]

5th avenue sleeper,his car similar to yours.727s and C6s are so close in design and operation the parts almost interchange.Keep in mind that you 88 mill is low compression compared to earlier years.Whos next?

[360CHP]

Well, I'm still checking this thing out...

[dwc43]

This is an easy one here. We build 360's with way over 400 hp for racing. Drop me an e mail address and I'll help you out with some tricks that I just want put on here.

First find out if it's an A727 or an A904 or variant cause the A727 was not stock in the F,M, or J platform. Basicly your car is an M body but they all use the sam platform with just a different body. The A727 will have a kick out in the pan where the dipstick is, and the A904 is straight in that area. If it's not an A727 get one from TCI at www.tciauto.com or get one from Summit Racing. These are the best you can get, or if you have one just get the TCI parts to rebuild yours with.

Heads, get a pair of X or J heads with 2.02 valves or install them in the J heads if you find a pair with 1.88's in them and mill them to .035. Harland Sharp has the aluminum rollaer rockers you need. I have an 8 year old set still racing today. USea dual patten cam to help exhaust flow on these heads.

Use a set of Kb pistons, '68 to '69 318 rods. They have full floating pins and they are the lightest and will alst to 6500 all night long. You'll need it balanced after this,but it's worth it. Stock crank is fine. Use a windage tray, you can get it at your dealer. Kevko makes soem great oil pans. USe a stock opil pump with the $4.00 pressure spring added to it that you get fromt he mopar performance dealer.

[dwc43]

Use an Air gap intake with a thermoquad carb on it. It's much more throttle responsive than any holley ever thought about being. I'd also use the mopar springs to curve your dist, and use an msd box with Champion n12yc plugs gapped to .045.

Headers, these are easy too. Get a set from Hedman with 1 3/4 primaries that fit a Volare' or Dodge Aspen. These will fit your car too since the ones mentioned are F bodies. Run 2 1/2 pipe with a merge X pipe and flow master mufflers.

This should get you a great start towards kicking your friends rustang into the ground. Send me your e mail addy if you want some more tricks for your chassis and engine. We've built a few of these F body cars when we ran dirt, and now we run NASCAR asphalt sprotsman classes, but het engines work about the same, and a long time ago, we used to drag race one too.

Sorry about putting that into two post, but I hit the wrong button by accident.

[72Challenger]

I really don't understand why, for a track only car, your cousin is only building a 415 HP engine. Both the 351W and the Mopar 360 can easily go over 500 if you do it right.

Do you just want to keep up with your cuz or do you want to beat him? Do you want to beat him BAD? Because you can if you want. The real trouble is his AFR heads, they're really good. No way will stock heads flow anywhere near them, even the good X heads. Ported, that's another story. But the real way to go for a hi-po track car is the W2 heads. Out of the box they're good for over 500 HP. Ported, you can get over 600!

Look to one of the specialty cam ginders like Engle or Racer Brown instead of the Purple Shaft. The cam really determines how much power you will make, assuming that the heads can support the necessary airflow. You don't need a bucks-up roller setup to make 500 HP. Since this is a track only car, look for a high-lift cam in the 250-260 degree range at .050 lift and you'll easily have over 475 HP, with the right heads. More duration = more HP, but at a higher RPM. With a stock bottom end, don't go too much over 6,500.

The Air Gap manifold is a good one, but tops out about 6500 RPM. This would actually be fine since you said you want to keep the stock bottom end, but it's also a great street manifold. Use a Holley, or better yet, a Demon carb set up for the strip. The ThermoQuad is a terrific street carb, and great for road and circle track racing because of the spread bore design, but a double-pumper will make a better drag carb.

Use the right rear gears and torque converter to round out the package, and all your cousin will see will be your MOPAR tail lights!

[SK]

first off let me ask you this: are you sure thats a 360?most of them were 318's id run the numbers on the block to be sure if i were you.

secondly the hooker 5901 headers fit very nicely..although i forget their size right now.

some random thoughts on heads,go with the W2's,edlebrocks or atleast a conversion to magnum R/T's ported.

for tranny id help pic 904/727

id also recommend the custom ground bump stick.

thread here about 400 hp from a 360clicky click

have fun,and btw the 360 i just built for my 83 M body sounds alot badder then the chevy 350 i did last year....cant wait to get some tires on it and run against the chevy i built and see which one wins.

[360CHP]

Hey guys, Thanks for the replies, the information has been really helpful for me to start researching in the right direction. I admit that I'm still confused of what this block is still. I have had a few tell me that it's a 318, 318 with 360 heads or a Magnum 360/360 heads. A manager at a speed shop asked me alot of questions and he seemed pretty knowledeable of this police cruiser. I have looked up what he told me and he seemed to know what he was talking about. I think I forgot to mention is that this was a Supervisors California Highway Patrol Car that was used for just a couple years. I was informed from the seller that this was not a pursuit vehicle but an office on wheels type car. The car has orig 88K miles and the dial hasnt been turned over supposably. I have only been able to examine the cam and tappets and they look fine with no pits or wear. The heads look good but the coolant passages are a little bit corroded as well as the manifold with rust and coolant residue but nothing major. The manifold was gooed up in the EGR and the distributor was kinda filty. The engine is caked with gunk and appears to have had an intake leak. So, Since this is a police package engine, I have no idea what they put in it. I'm not even sure if they follow a certain option package or a custom package. I wish I can send you guys pictures of what I have but that wouldnt help. I was wondering if this engine was built up that ressembled the Jegs & summit ad of that 360 Block with the 300 HP package, that's what I'm guessing. The engine is apart now but this thing was difficult to get it idling correctly. I had to warm this puppy up for several miuntes until it flattened out. It had a really lobey cam sound to it. That nice "Blub-Blub-Blub, not enough power but enough to be somewhat satisfied. Well, enough said...I will be checking the VIN on the block hopefully this weekend.

Mike

[360CHP]

Also, what should I be looking for on the block to determine if it's a 360? The VIN list I have may be missing crutial info since I got it off the Internet. And what rear-end do you think I have and how can I tell? And tips of checking this out will help me narrow things down here. Thanks!

[73calroadrunner]

On almost all standard chrysler LA small blocks you are going to want to look on the block right under the drivers side head. But don't look on the side. Pop the hood and look directly at the engine straight on. Now scrape the gunk off the block right under the drivers side head. Which if you are facing it is on your right. There should be a series of numbers right there stamped in the block. It will either say 318 or 360 right there in a code of numbers. You can also look on the side of the block as well, but this way requires the least ammount of effort. Sorry for holding your hand on this but I wanted to be clear on this. Good luck with your first mopar.

[SK]

well if indeed it is a cop car check this link out
CLICK HERE

lotta info on the mopar cop cars.

If the engine is outta the car just look on the driver side of the block it will clearly state in big numbers either 360 or 318 followed by some other numbers or preceeded by other numbers broken up by dashes.

most cop cars that were not pursuit vehicles only had the 318,and actually my 83 is a gran fury cop car(same as diplomat) and it was a 318 with 4bbl and 360 heads(360 heads work great on the teen and flow better).
mines now got a 360 with ported magnum head conversion.

good thing bout it being a cop car is you've already got all the heavy duty suspension and extra fluid coolers. you may or may not have a sure-grip rear end(mopar term for posi) the luckiest you may get on rear gearing ive found so far would for it to have a 3.23 ratio,2.90something seems the norm.

[BBCACharger]

750 Holley? I might be new at this, but that sounds like it could be a little small. I have a 440 with about 465 hoarsepower and I am using a 850 Edlebrock. Have you checked into the Barry Grants at all? Good luck.

[73calroadrunner]

As for rear end identification check this out. Just pulled it from the tech archives here. http://www.moparchat.com/forums/atta...&postid=442539

[5thAve]

No cars had 360s after 1980 or 1981. Unless it was added in later it won't have any rear end gear bigger then a 2.9whatever. You have to look at the transmission pan to see which on it has, it could either be a 904 or 727.

[horatio102]

hm. Ok these other guys got you covered for your setup, so I'm going to have to chime in and give you some advice for your cousin.

If it's a dedicated track car, he's going to want to ditch that Performer dual plane manifold. He also screwed up when buying the heads... don't get me wrong, the 185 AFR's are great. But that's a street head. He should have picked up the 205's or a step larger, and a single plane manifold like the Victor Jr. I'm not good at picking cams, but his sounds like it will work fine. The other thing is his carb. I'm not a fan of the Edelbrock carbs. I'd go with a Demon.

After you mercilessly wax him down the track, you should share some of that with him so he can spend more money trying to keep up.

[72Challenger]

Hey! Stop trying to help the competition go faster!

[horatio102]

Originally posted by 72Challenger
Hey! Stop trying to help the competition go faster!

Can't help it.

I've got a 91 5.0 that I'm stripping down.

With no tuning and poorly selected injectors and TB for N/A, I'm putting out around 330hp and lb-ft

306, Performer heads, F303 cam, forged 8.5:1 rebuild, 70mm maf, 70mm tb/egr, mac cai, pro products u/l intake manifolds, mac shorty equal length headers, o/r H pipe, flowmaster 40's, 30lb injectors

and the car itself:
91 vert
power top and ALL associated hardware removed
All side windows and all associated hardware removed
ALL carpet and 99% of the insulation removed
back seat removed
fiberglass hood
no foglights
trunk stripped, no jack, no tire, no plastic trim
power seats gone, driver's replaced with a Sparco Torino, passenger's waiting for something good but meantime it's got some ugly broken POS from a blue ford.

In the future an 8 or 10 point cage is going in, and 5 point harnesses. The motor was built anticipating a blower as well. I'm also going to get a set of 275/40r17 dot drag radials or something.. the 245/45 Kumhos aren't cutting it.

My goal was to get it down to 2800lbs. I think I passed it.

[flipper35]

A 360 is will have weight machined out one one side of the vibration damper. Though it shouldn't have a 360 unless they blew up the 318, which has happened in my home town cop car 2x.

[hotrod7043]

Mr Dwc 43 you are totally wrong the 727 was available in those platforms all e58 360 used them in the early years and in sure he aint got one and if it a 88 its probaly a 318 lean burn with a a998
or a999.dont argue son iworked dealer back then and they were available. a 904 is nothing but a baby 727 anyway.

[dwc43]

I worked for one too and drove them also. The A727 was not stock in a Diplomat only A904 and there counterparts A999 A998 and so on. The early patrol and taxi fleet vehicles could be ordered with an A727, but not a run of the mil non fleet car. And his is an 88 almost the last year of the M platform and they were all 318 A999's by that time. And hte A904 and it's other versions are no where near as strong as an A727 .

[hotrod7043]

Like i said itwas available in those platforms, and they were even available in CA. think isaw a few more than you just on were i worked, i am sure our San Jose dealer was larger than yur tenn store.

[360CHP]

Hey, whatsup...havent forgotten about you guys. Thanks for all the info..it's been alot of help. I'm totally in the right direction and I'm still sinking my brain into this. I need a lil more time on this and I will come back with some conversation of what's going on hopefully by next week. Thanks!

[360CHP]

Ok, here we go...after taking her apart and taking the time to get all up under it looking at pictures and reading various crap....we now have the truth.

It's a 318 with 360 heads, A904 tranny with a 7 1/4 rearend but what gears? I dunno? Maybe 3.23's or something. I havent lifted the rear to rotate and find out. Anyhow, I'm a lil bumbed out but it's alright because this car was handed over to me at no cost and I'm still happy with it. I will be searching this forum for awhile to see what I can do from here. Like stroking it out or something. Looks like I may have to chose a different route but I'm not ganna shoot it down quite yet. Thanks again.

[dwc43]

The 7 1/4 wont have anything deeper than a 2.76 in it. Best thing to do, and first thing to do is to upgrade to an 8 1/4. And easy find from a Dakota with 3.55's in them. The 318 with those heads can easily make 400 hp if you do it right. We used to run one for a while on the dirt tracks. IT was .030 over which made it a 323 and we used J heads with 2.02 valves and KB pistons which where a little on the heavy side, but we could still run it 63 to 6800 all night long.

[360CHP]

But before I do all that..I would need to know what this block can handle. If I'm going to be doing this...this is my first time dealing with a block build and for all that trouble...I want to get as much juice out of it that I can. I guess I'll search in here and see what 318 blocks are getting pumped up to and what stroker kits. I would rather find a bigger block so I will be searching the local paper and junkyards for that as well and weigh out my options. I don't even know what a standard block job is worth dishing out? I'm guess a hot tank, examining block, honing or boring and balancing it if I wanted a shop to load the crank and pistons in would cost alot of money. So ball park of this kinda work getting done $1K- 1.5K or more? Like for example...lets say I have a stroker Kit and I want the block cleaned up and pistons put in and crank. I have about $4-$5K to play with and it has to cover the engine and tranny before anything else. I hate paying someone to fix my stuff...I was hoping this wasnt ganna happen thats why I was crossing my fingers that I could use the stock block. Anyhow....do you have any websites i can check out that has alot of parts you can order online..I have no resources but the common Jegs and Summitt approach...Thanks!

Originally posted by dwc43
The 7 1/4 wont have anything deeper than a 2.76 in it. Best thing to do, and first thing to do is to upgrade to an 8 1/4. And easy find from a Dakota with 3.55's in them. The 318 with those heads can easily make 400 hp if you do it right. We used to run one for a while on the dirt tracks. IT was .030 over which made it a 323 and we used J heads with 2.02 valves and KB pistons which where a little on the heavy side, but we could still run it 63 to 6800 all night long.

[dwc43]

http://www.mikesspeedshop.com/

Well replacing that rear is really your first concern cause they don't hold up. I've killed them even behind slant sixes. Here's you a reference in pricing from the speed shop that does all of our NASCAR race engine machine shop work. If your really wanting to build a stroker, get you a 360 block to go with those good heads you got there. 400 plus hp is easy with the 360 even in the restriced trim like we run. I want tell you exactly what we get out of ours though. But a 360 ishte basis for a stroker engine. If you need any help let me know, or give me an e mail addy and I'll reply to you.

[360CHP]

hello ...back from the dead.
I finally made a decision and got a 360 Magnum block from JEGS and I'm still pretty stuck on the cam & heads. I'm not sure if I wanna use these Iron 360 heads I got off my 318. I've been looking at Edel's RPM cam and manifold package but I think I can find something better.
The Magnum and W2 heads I saw here...Heads
Still cant find the X or J heads that was mentioned in here. I wanna see this Dodge put down over 400 at the wheels. I have somewhat of cash, somewhat of time, able to put this thing together with eagerness to do this but I always have a hard time with block/cam/head matching since I'm still learning here. It sucks that I have no knowledge of head flow, airflow and cam lift/duration. If I knew...I think this Diplo would be closer to being on its feet.
2 Quick Questions...
1) I did see some Aluminum heads for Magnum engines Jegs #312-P4876624. I think their shaft mount heads and wasnt sure what cam to go with for these heads since some cams require adjustable valvetrain. Fits the 92-01 5.2L and 93-01 5.9L versions and all the Magnum crate engines. Well I have a 360 Mag block and was wondering if this head will be worth it and what cam would be good for this?

2) DWC43, you said use my 360 heads I have..sounds like a money saving option..so what cam to push me over 400 wheels? I think I might run a AirGap intake if it fits.

Thanks!

[hotrod7043]

tooo bad i aint out there runnining a mopar store in the old days you could go to Century On stevens creek and get it all.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by 360CHP

hello ...back from the dead.
I finally made a decision and got a 360 Magnum block from JEGS and I'm still pretty stuck on the cam & heads. I'm not sure if I wanna use these Iron 360 heads I got off my 318. I've been looking at Edel's RPM cam and manifold package but I think I can find something better.
The Magnum and W2 heads I saw here...Heads
Still cant find the X or J heads that was mentioned in here. I wanna see this Dodge put down over 400 at the wheels. I have somewhat of cash, somewhat of time, able to put this thing together with eagerness to do this but I always have a hard time with block/cam/head matching since I'm still learning here. It sucks that I have no knowledge of head flow, airflow and cam lift/duration. If I knew...I think this Diplo would be closer to being on its feet.
2 Quick Questions...
1) I did see some Aluminum heads for Magnum engines Jegs #312-P4876624. I think their shaft mount heads and wasnt sure what cam to go with for these heads since some cams require adjustable valvetrain. Fits the 92-01 5.2L and 93-01 5.9L versions and all the Magnum crate engines. Well I have a 360 Mag block and was wondering if this head will be worth it and what cam would be good for this?

2) DWC43, you said use my 360 heads I have..sounds like a money saving option..so what cam to push me over 400 wheels? I think I might run a AirGap intake if it fits.

Thanks!

The W2's are was desigend for use on ANSCAR racers and do not make a good street head. I would use the X,J, or U heads with 2.02 valves like we use, or get a set of edel heads if you want aluminum heads. With aluminum heads you need to run 1 point higher compression or you will loose power. So if your running 9 to 1 on cast heads, you need 10 to 1 on aluminum to get the same power.

On the cam, the main thing to run on your stock type heads that I mentioned above is to get a dual pattern cam. One that has more wxh. duration than intake duration. That helps the exhaust side of the head to breathe better. Stay conservative. Something like a 272 276 cam will work well, or the next size bigger. Roller rockers are worth a little extra hp as well. Make sure to run a windage tray and a lifter valley baffel too. The help to add hp and a good oil pan to use, is the stock type from Kevko. IT has a crank scraper nad baffeling and gates in it.

[hotrod7043]

Dwc 43 as i was around and heavily involved with Mopar Performace at the time , the W2 was not repeat not designed for NASCAR, Chrysler was in the Small block Prostock program, actualy the W2 got its start in the Shadow program for and indycar type prpgram The W2 bieng a excellent high rpm head
was trickled down to Kit car program. the nascar R&d was Minute at Chrysler in late 70s, i know i had the first set for resale in my Store, there are also different design versions.