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  #1  
Old 06-03-2004, 04:05 PM
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ttraut@unlockit ttraut@unlockit is offline
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Thumbs up 440 build up

I've sourced a 72 440 engine with steel crank and probably 452 heads that I can pick up for $500.

I want to build a nice street car -- lots of power but very streetable. I have a 69 RR 4-speed with a 383 and 3.55 gears. It's a nice set-up and running fine.

What I want to do is putz with the engine as much as I can within my limited capabilities (equipment and knowledge).

Questions:

1) Is this a good engine? and price?

2) Is there anything I can look for to make sure I'm not getting a dud? I was told this was taken from a demolition car that got pinned to the wall in the first minute; the engine was running fine.

3) How can I tell if this a steel crank?

4) Are 452 heads any good for a street build-up? Should I be looking for 906s?

5) I contacted R&L Engines in Dover, NH for some advice. They've built a number of pretty hot Mopars and come recommended. Anyone hear of them (or have other recommendations in NH/northern MA?) They told me that 906s are preferred over 452s because the 452 was an emission head. True?

6) What questions should I be asking R&L?

7) The casting on the water pump is cracked off; could be caused by handling or...? Should I be concerned?

8) What would you recommend for components?

9) I have a 850 Speed Demon that I was going to put on the 383; will this work with the 440?

Thanks! I'm going to have SOME FUN!!!!

Terry
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2004, 05:35 PM
71chargerse 71chargerse is offline
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that would be a good motor to build up, 500 bucks is not too bad if it is a running motor. i would ask if i could pull the heads and look the bores over before u buy. a steel crank motor will have a dampner that is only about an inch in thickness, look to see which one it is.
the 452 heads are just as good as the 906s, but yes the 452s were introduced as part of the solution to emmission reductions.
being down here in the sunshine state , i havent heard of r&l . but what you might ask them is do they have a complete machine shop for all the aspects of engine rebuilding that would include a boring bar, a honing machine, a line boring machine, a crank grinding machine those are the main pieces . also would they be able to balance the whole assembly. now about the water pump casting, thats not a big deasl, if its the housing , an old one can be found pretty cheap, the pump itself is also cheap. if you build a pretty stout motor that 850 demon would be ok if you werent worried about fuel economy. not knowing what your budget will be , for around 2000 you could put something together that would make 450 hp eaasily. and also run fine on the street. i would stay with 9.5 to 1 compression, maybe mildly port the heads if you have the $$s , edelbrock rpm dual plane intake, comp cams 274 xe series cam., 1/7/8 " headers, adjustable rockers, etc.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2004, 06:53 PM
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MOPARMANJAMES MOPARMANJAMES is offline
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Thumbs up Go for it

As mentioned, try to pull the heads and also oil pan before you buy so you can inspect it. You can tell a steel crank from a cast crank by checking out the parting line on the casting. If its cast iron, there will be a thin line, if forged, it will be thick, like about 1/2".
452 heads are preferred since they have hardened seats and should work OK with unleaded.
Be aware that this engine is taller than your 383 so a different intake manifold will have to be used as well as distributor.

Questions you need to ask is how far overbore is it already, .060" is max, how much has the crank been ground, .040" is max.

As far as components it depends on how much HP you want.
My setup is fairly cheap and makes around 500hp.
I have mildly home ported 906 heads, stock valves, old street dominator intake, 800cfm holley, Elgin .510"lift/244@.050"/108LCA
hydraulic cam(a bargain at $39), 6pack pistons(trw2355f),
re-ring kit from PowerHouse in Bakersfield CA.

The car is a 69RR with 3.23 gears, MT sportsman pro's, 10" 3500 stall converter, 727, 3500# with driver and runs 12.45 @ 109
and I drive it to and from the track about 25 miles.
This is at 2100 ft so you will probably do better.
I run it on 91 octane unleaded with lead additive.

Hope this helps, happy hunting.
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  #4  
Old 06-04-2004, 06:04 AM
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Default Thanks and more questions

Thanks MOPARMANJAMES and 71chargerse!

1) Will my MSD 6A still work with the 440?

2) Is the distributor on the front or the rear of the 440?

3) I have an airgrabber setup in the hood; if "engine is taller than your 383", will the airgrabber set up work or will I have to remove it?

4) Is there something that I should be looking for to determine if this engine goes with a four-speed or an automatic? I think I remember reading something about the crank being a bit different on the tip. Is this a big deal?

5) My budget is $3000 on top of the motor.

I'm going back to look at the motor next week when the guy's back in town. I'll pull the heads and crankcase cover. I will:

a) Measure the bore to see if it's been bored (what SHOULD the bore be at stock?)

b) Look for the parting line for the 1/2" width thickness on the line and the dampner that is only about an inch in thickness; this ensures me that this is a forged steel crank.

c) Measure the crank to see if it's been ground (what SHOULD the crank measure at stock?)

d) Check the heads to see if they're 452s or 906s or whatever (is there a specific place that indicates which head I have?)

e) Probably buy the engine.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks!

Terry
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  #5  
Old 06-04-2004, 07:52 AM
moparots moparots is offline
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Hey I can answer one of those questions ... The dist is in the front of a big block and in the back of small blocks

Hey "71chargerse" I noticed your from Orlando Fl... do you know of a good machine shop (that knows mopars) in the Orlando area? Im from Clermont Fl about 22 miles West of you.
Im going to be building a 360 for my 73 Charger and after that a 440 for a newport T&C Ststion wagon
I had planned on taking them to "National Cylinder Head" right by the Citrus bowl. What do you think....... Craig
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  #6  
Old 06-04-2004, 06:24 PM
71chargerse 71chargerse is offline
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the msd 6 will work fine with the 440, about the air grabber, the 440 is about 3/4 " taller than the 383 it is also wider by about an inch, but only the height would be a factor, you might have to modify something to get the duct work to fit . im not sure how yours works but maybe theres a flexible rubber carb to duct connection you can make up. it might not even be a problem. the cranks are different going from auto. to 4 speed . the manual trans crank has the end drilled for the pilot bearing for the trans shaft. the auto. crank does not have it. the stock bore on a 440 is 4.320 so it might be , accounting for wear up to 4.330 . also look for a ridge at the top of the bore , if its a thick ridge the motor is probably stock with lots of miles. now on the bottom end the crank journals should be 2.750 . or actually with wear taken into account 2.745 +- 3 or 4 thou.. to find the head casting numbers yoouve got to pull the valve covers , it might be covered in sludge too.
moparot: ive had my work done by a shop in sanford , the guys a chevy man but he knows what hes doing. i dont know about many shops in the area, but i have heard bad things about national cyl. head. i wouldnt go there.ive heard they have young kids working there that dont really know yet what they are doing. if i was you i would go to revmaster on old winter garden rd. which is closer to you anyway. or auto machine on w. central av. they come highly reccomended by speed shops around here. good luck
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2004, 11:23 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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The Air Grabber assembly will be fine. You will need the correct baseplate. The 440 baseplate is ½" shorter than the 383 baseplate.

Set the baseplate right side up on a flat surface. Measure from the top of the cross bar down to the surface. the 383 baseplate will measure 3½", the 440 baseplate will measure 3".

For the machine shop, make sure that they have the correct torque plate/honing plate for properly honing the engine. If they don't already have one for your engine, then they don't do good quality MOPAR wor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hone.jpg (114.9 KB, 38 views)
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  #8  
Old 08-13-2004, 12:53 PM
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ttraut@unlockit ttraut@unlockit is offline
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Default Now I did it!

Well, I bought the 440 for $500. I've been disassembling the motor and have a couple of questions (in need of more of your expertise!):

1) When I pulled the drain pan, there were loads of what looked like black plastic chips. What might this be? (I noticed a few of the same chips when I pulled the pan on my 383 when I bought it several years ago.)

2) The casting on the block is 3698830 which, according to my How to Rebuild Big-Block Mopar Engines book, says that this is a 1973-78 engine, not a 1972 as I was led to believe. It LOOKS like the antipollution engine came out in 1973, not 1972; the casting number for 1966-72 engine is 2536430. Am I reading this correctly?

3) According to my damper cast number (3614371) I have a forged crank for an automatic. Anything special (or to worry about) with this crank?

4) The heads have a cast number of 3462346 indicating nothing to me (other than they're from a 73-78 440). What are these heads and is there anything special (or to worry about) with these heads?

I bought/borrowed a ridge reamer so I can take out the pistons next.

I'm having a ball!

Thanks,

Terry
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  #9  
Old 08-13-2004, 03:18 PM
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MoparMarcIdaho MoparMarcIdaho is offline
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Exclamation those pieces in the pan

are more than likely valve seals. what are the numbers stamped in the front beside the distributor?
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2004, 05:21 PM
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ttraut@unlockit ttraut@unlockit is offline
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Default Number near distributor

Thanks MoparMarcIdaho,

The number near the distributor is H440.

What does the H mean? Too Hot to Handle? Or Heavy as Hell?

Terry
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  #11  
Old 08-13-2004, 06:57 PM
Juan Ramon Juan Ramon is offline
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The H440 marking denotes that it is a 72 block. I know this sounds stupid but you have checked the sides of the block to see the casting date as well?
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2004, 07:53 PM
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Default H is 72

so its the last steel crank year and without HP being there its a family car spec edition with 350 horse advertised. but mabeye slightly less with lower compression.Hopefully it all mikes out standard and you can just slip it back together,where are you going to use it?
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2004, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Now I did it!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ttraut@unlockit
[B]Well, I bought the 440 for $500. I've been disassembling the motor and have a couple of questions (in need of more of your expertise!):

1) When I pulled the drain pan, there were loads of what looked like black plastic chips. What might this be? (I noticed a few of the same chips when I pulled the pan on my 383 when I bought it several years ago.)


Those chips are from the plastic off of your worn out timming chain gears.
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  #14  
Old 12-11-2004, 06:54 AM
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ttraut@unlockit ttraut@unlockit is offline
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Default It's build up time for the 440

The engine magnafluxed fine as did the crank. The only thing that was wrong with the engine is that one of the engine mount ears had broken off.

Here's the builder's (R&L Engines www.rlengines.com) suggestions:

Bore .030 over. Hone.
Keep the stock connecting rods (one's bent but can be replaced)
TRW forged pistons (10.3 compression)
New rings
Stock oil pump
Comp Cam 270
Comp timing chain
Windage tray
New bearings all around.
ARP rod bolts

He'll resurface the deck and block, resize the connecting rods, and balance the assembly.

He'll radius and micropolish the crank (there's little wear on the crank).

We decided to use the 906 heads from my 383 rather than the 452 heads from the 72 440. He's putting in new guides and hardened seats. He'll do some mild porting. I don't know what springs or retainers he's using but imagine they're fairly stock. We're using the old rockers and shafts.

I'm going to be using my MSD 6A and Don's recurved distributor on this. It'll have headers. I have a 4-speed with 3.53 gears at 26in tires.

The car's a 69 RR and I'm intending to run 80% street, 19% highway, 1% strip, and I want this thing to scorch the tires at will.

Questions:

1) Comments on the set-up? What would you do differently? Remember, this isn't a race application, just an older fart trying to recapture some youth.

2) My builder suggested the Edlebrock Performer RPM. Thoughts?

3) My builder suggested a Holley double-pumper (850 cfm?). I have in hand a Speed Demon 750 (new). I was thinking of a Speed Demon 850. Thoughts?

(Oh, I had upgraded my fuel line to 3/8in this summer and the pump that's going in there is a mechanical -- dang, I forgot but it's more than plenty to feed the carb.)

4) I asked my builder to spec out a clutch (mine's not so good) and he suggested Ram (98504 - which is their HD kit, an upgrade over the OEM replacement). He said that he prefers these over Centerforce. Thoughts?

5) Overall cost for the engine work and parts is $3800. Head work and parts will cost another $1200. High? Low? About right? (The guy's got a great reputation and a couple local Mopar racers use him; the comment I get from folks who know usually is "If you want it done cheap, use xxxx; if you want it done right, use R&L.")

6) Cam choice is Comp's 270 (maybe 260). I heard folks talk about Racer Brown. Should I give him a call and see what he says?

Thanks!
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  #15  
Old 12-11-2004, 08:09 AM
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Personally I would use a Melling High volume oil pump instead of stock. You might even want your engine guy to upsize your oil pickup to 1/2". If you use a Holley double pump then you will need a high volume fuel pump. You can use a mechanical Cater or go with an electric. The Performer RPM is a good choice. Might want to look into a Thunder series Edelbrock for that manifold. 850 is about right for that motor. Street Dominator is a great carb but can be a bitch to get it just right. The Eddy's are forgiving when it comes to tuning but they dont push the power as good as a Dominator. You say you have a bent rod. That would cause me real concern. You have to wonder why it was bent and what kind of damage it did. As long as everything checked out with magnifluxing it should be o.k., but again....Why was it bent? Those are the type of things that keep me awake at night. lol New valve springs and retainers would be a good idea. Comp Cams are good indeed. Racer Brown is reportedly one of the best for Mopars. Wouldnt hurt to give them a call. You might want to give Huges a call as well. Dont forget the torque converter when you get to it, and the trans. All the engine mods wont do you that much if you cant put the power to the street.
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Old 12-11-2004, 09:05 AM
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Biggrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttraut@unlockit
The engine magnafluxed fine as did the crank. The only thing that was wrong with the engine is that one of the engine mount ears had broken off.

Here's the builder's (R&L Engines www.rlengines.com) suggestions:

Bore .030 over. Hone.
Keep the stock connecting rods (one's bent but can be replaced)
TRW forged pistons (10.3 compression)
New rings
Stock oil pump
Comp Cam 270
Comp timing chain
Windage tray
New bearings all around.
ARP rod bolts

He'll resurface the deck and block, resize the connecting rods, and balance the assembly.

He'll radius and micropolish the crank (there's little wear on the crank).

We decided to use the 906 heads from my 383 rather than the 452 heads from the 72 440. He's putting in new guides and hardened seats. He'll do some mild porting. I don't know what springs or retainers he's using but imagine they're fairly stock. We're using the old rockers and shafts.

I'm going to be using my MSD 6A and Don's recurved distributor on this. It'll have headers. I have a 4-speed with 3.53 gears at 26in tires.

The car's a 69 RR and I'm intending to run 80% street, 19% highway, 1% strip, and I want this thing to scorch the tires at will.

Questions:

1) Comments on the set-up? What would you do differently? Remember, this isn't a race application, just an older fart trying to recapture some youth.

2) My builder suggested the Edlebrock Performer RPM. Thoughts?

3) My builder suggested a Holley double-pumper (850 cfm?). I have in hand a Speed Demon 750 (new). I was thinking of a Speed Demon 850. Thoughts?

(Oh, I had upgraded my fuel line to 3/8in this summer and the pump that's going in there is a mechanical -- dang, I forgot but it's more than plenty to feed the carb.)

4) I asked my builder to spec out a clutch (mine's not so good) and he suggested Ram (98504 - which is their HD kit, an upgrade over the OEM replacement). He said that he prefers these over Centerforce. Thoughts?

5) Overall cost for the engine work and parts is $3800. Head work and parts will cost another $1200. High? Low? About right? (The guy's got a great reputation and a couple local Mopar racers use him; the comment I get from folks who know usually is "If you want it done cheap, use xxxx; if you want it done right, use R&L.")

6) Cam choice is Comp's 270 (maybe 260). I heard folks talk about Racer Brown. Should I give him a call and see what he says?

Thanks!


TRW's are real heavy, pick another maker. The comp 270 is real small for a 440, but it will work great. I would have used a 280* .480" if it's mostly street. A thermoquad would be bettter. It was stock and it's 850 cfm and will give you more throttle response than the holley will.We use them on our race cars too. Get one at ADvance for around 189 last time I got one. Dont need the hardened seats even when installing stainless steel valves. THe intakes o.k. just stick with a dual plane for street use. Comp cams and Mopar cams work great in these engines too.
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  #17  
Old 12-11-2004, 10:27 AM
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MOPARMANJAMES MOPARMANJAMES is offline
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The head work isn't worth it, buy the Edelbrock heads for $150 more and you'll never look back.
The compression ratio is a bit high for a street car since you are using a smaller cam for better low end torque.
With the small cam closing the intake valve sooner, you are going to have too much cylinder pressure for pump gas.
I would use the Mopar 9:1 pistons or equivalent instead, and the TRW's are heavy, but so are the stock pistons, the TRW's are actually lighter than a stock slug.
The carburetor you have will work, but it will suck the gas like no tomorrow,
someone suggested a thermoquad, good idea, check out demon sizzler carbs.
I wouldn't buy a Performer RPM since it doesn't gain much over the stock intake.
The machine work does sound very high priced to me, for the same money you might be able to order a nice kit from Muscle Motors.
As far as the ear being broken on the block, what are you going to do about that? I would save that block for a race car and get a good one with the ears for a street car.
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  #18  
Old 12-13-2004, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MOPARMANJAMES:

The head work isn't worth it, buy the Edelbrock heads for $150 more and you'll never look back.

That's right, but what's done is done.

The compression ratio is a bit high for a street car since you are using a smaller cam for better low end torque. ... I would use the Mopar 9:1 pistons or equivalent instead, and the TRW's are heavy, but so are the stock pistons, the TRW's are actually lighter than a stock slug.

I wouldn't go more than 9.5 for a street motor. Moparmanjames is right about the slugs.

The carburetor you have will work, but it will suck the gas like no tomorrow, someone suggested a thermoquad, good idea, check out demon sizzler carbs.

Since you have a 4-speed a 750 DP Holley with the correct jets for street driving would also be worth looking into.

I wouldn't buy a Performer RPM since it doesn't gain much over the stock intake.

I'd look around and try to find a Torker 440 (NOT the torker II) intake for your engine. The Torker produces more HP & torque at a lower rpm than other intakes. This is what you want for a street engine.

The machine work does sound very high priced to me, for the same money you might be able to order a nice kit from Muscle Motors.

I did the build up for my 440 for around $2500. If you are interested you can read about it here:

http://www.moparpages.com/forums/sho...=&fpart=1&vc=1



Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
The comp 270 is real small for a 440, but it will work great. I would have used a 280* .480" if it's mostly street.
I also agree with dwc43 on cam choice for a street motor. I used a different cam (refer to above thread URL) but my car is intended for about 95% strip and 5% street....
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