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#1
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a little head?
ok, the machine shop is trying like heck to talk me into putting w-2s on my street and strip 360. everything ive read and seen of these are high rpm, soggy bottom builds. i need low end and midrange, and not all that much above 6500, as it will spend very little time there. also, ive only seen single planes and tunnel rams for these heads, making it more of a top end motor.
ao the question is, am i completely wtrong and the machine shop is right, or are they trying to screw together more of a race bullet than i want to drive? thanks guys mike ps: cam selection has not been made yet, compression 9-9.5, tti headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, 4 speed, 3.91 drag gears, 2.76 street/freeway. 3200 pound a-body, power steering, A/c (maybe) |
#2
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Hey,you know what-the customer is always right.Thats you.What do they think those are worth?With 2.76s you would need to wind it to about 70 in low to get to 6 grand out of it.A dual plane and RV grind would do the best with those gears,W2s are cool but not what you want,then go tell them so.
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#3
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Quote:
You don't want W2 heads on the street. These heads were designed for NASCAR circle track racing and range from the W2 to the W9 that is used on the NASCAR Dodges at present. What you need is a good set of X,J, or U 360 heads with 2.02 intake valves with a 3 angle valve job and some mild pocket porting or exhaust side porting. The porting is optional but will help it to flow better on the exhaust side. We build several of these for dirt track and asphalt ovals and at a 1/4 to 5/8 of a mile torque is a must. These heads are what you need. YOu also need to look at a dual pattern cam somehting like a 272 int. and 276 exh, for good low to mid range torque. The dual pattern again, allows the heads to breath better on the exhaust side. A great intake to use is the Weaind Action lus with a therquad carb. That carb is more throttle responsive than any holley and is stock 800 cfm carb for your engine. It will give you all the low, mid and top end that you will ever need. We use a lot of them on our race cars too. |
#4
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Could you clear something up for me. This sentence here;
Quote:
Ethier way, I would not use W-2 heads on the street unless I was in the "Take no prisioners" mode. MoPar does make a dual plane intake for the W-2 though. Cut to take on a T-Q, this dual plane is better for rules limited class seeing the W-2 flows huge sums of air with very large port runners. If the runners were hi-flowing with thinner runners, that would be different. DW hit the nail here; Quote:
When your ready to start crushing the other guys, the W-2 is a great place to start. Other heads to consider would be fully portedheads like what hughes engines offer. There heads are better sutied for heavy street cars over W-2's. |
#5
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#6
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If you truly told this machine shop what you told us here, and they still want to sell you full race heads, then take your stuff and go somewhere else. freshened stock heads, eddy's, or magnums sound like they are more in your ballpark.
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#7
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I agree with dkn1997 about finding me another machine shop to use. I'd go with the edels if you just want to spend some money, otherwise I would stick the the X.J. or U heads with 2.02 valves for now. Depends on wild you want to get with it.
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#8
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I really dont think thw W2's will hurt you that much on the bottom end. The engine will still make planty of torque. If you have the money I would, iit may be cheaper now, depending on how much more you want, and this being the case more is never enough, Remeber the only cost of the heads is just the begining, a set of rockers for the W2's, a set of headers also will be needed. There a real good head, way better than any stock iron head, and way better than even the edelbrocks out there. They are more like a race head, There is a guy around here runs 1/8th mile with a 4 inch stroke w2 head street machine thats makes way more than most big blocks do, not sure but a 71 Demon runs lmid, low 6's which would be low 10's. No NOS, No roller lifters, no bull.
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#9
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what i told the machine shop that i needed was a street strip mill. im wanting to pull 12.5 in the 1/4 on 91 octane, and it needs to be bulletproof enough to drive from coast to coast. also told them about the gear range selection, and the options on the car. they said that the w-2s would do what i want them to because of their great mid lift flow. also, since tti makes headers, theyre not a nightmare to plumb to exhaust. they were also recommending that i shell out for some porting to these pieces. theyre rationale (which i can agree with) is that ill get bored with a 12.5 daily driver and want to make "real power" down the road. the increased capacity of the head will allow for growth. but then i look at my intake choices, and the current build on this mill, and wonder how much im giving up now for the possibility of pushing the envelope a whole lot later when money isnt as much of an issue. after all, down the road im looking at fuel injection and a blower, which with water injection wont hate the 9.0 compression.
anyway, thats whats going on, a little better explained than previously. as far as the gears, the 3.91 is for when i want to go to track days at kershaw (road race track), or down to the friday night drags. the 2.76's are for when i go on the power tour, or to a far away destination, like minnesota. the 2.76s will only be in the equation untill shuch time as i get the 3 grand for the keisler kit, in which case the 3.91 will stay in the car permanently. thanks for the help, guys mike |
#10
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If your planning on building a set of stock heads, all new parts, then having them ported, I would then think about a aftermarket head. The W2's wouldnt need ported in your case, they are pretty rough from the cast state, but still more head than say a 2.02 X head. They should flow around 200-220 cfm @28 h20. Fully ported will go 300+ cfm. Have you consdiered Also the w2 intake is needed. But running just 12.5 sec 1/4 miles times, doesnt do the w2 engine head justice, but just think you have the room to grow several hundred horses.. All and all seems that the w2 maynot be the head for you, but iI always look at it with a peer pressure of $$
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#11
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#12
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basically the limit with stock heads on a street car is about 12.0 with the x/j head. they really don't have the low lift flow numbers to support much more than 450 flywheel hp and even with a huge cam they start to choke around .550/.600 lift.
the limit with w2 heads is as far as your wallet will carry the rest of the engine. i have seen w2 heads make well over 500 ft lbs from 2500 rpm to 500 rpm on a 408 cubic inch engine, and they weren't even near a full port job. there are many 9 and 10 second full steel bodied street small blocks with no other secrets than w2 heads/induction. these heads are the difference between a FAST race car and a fast street car, if you get what i mean. |
#13
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Without a lot of high dollar parts and a really built engine, the W2's will fall on there face on a street engine. THey were not designed for low end torque at all and will suffer on the street. And by the way, X,J, or U heads will only support 9.5 to 1 on street gas not 12 to 1.
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#14
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As long as he had idea gearing and converter, there will be no problem with w2's on the street, as far as them being a all out race head, and kill low end torque, yea if you call 450+ ft.lbs of torque a problem. Say with a 3000 converter, which is aidea street stall. and 4.10+ gears, why would low end torque be a problem? If he was putting the heads on a stock 360 in a pickup truck made for towing maybe. I know guys running them on the street with 3.55 gears, and sucky GER converters, Its a super fast A body. No way would a stock cast iron head engine make that kind of power, or torque, no matter what or whom ports the heads.
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#15
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Well if you'ld like to come over here to my NASCAR shop I'll show you how a stock headed 360 will out run your firends W2 headed Duster. I can build you an engine that has 500 ft lbs but if it's at 45 4800 or higher and not lower at a usable level it is certainly not streetable. And yes, the W series are oval track race heads and any Mopar book will tell you that that is what they were designed for.
Originally Posted by dusterbd ok, the machine shop is trying like heck to talk me into putting w-2s on my street and strip 360. everything ive read and seen of these are high rpm, soggy bottom builds. Even dusterbd has read enough to know not to use these heads on a street engine. He just wanted a little confromation. Besides, there's better places to spend the money on a street car than on these high priced heads that are getting pretty hard to find. And then you have to figure in the price of the special valve gear and then the cost really goes up. Just not worth it for street ride that wont be streetable. |
#16
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I don't think that there is any doubt that W2's or any of the heads listed can be made to perform on a street car IF SET UP PROPERLY. But, for his goal of a mid 12's street car, is it necessary to spend the dollars on those heads and special parts that go along with them? I think the issue is more of dollars than anything, and I have a real problem with a shop trying to push these heads on him with his stated goals.
If bigger plans (ie: way more Hp) are in the future, bulletproof the bottom end and then you can make all these other upgrades with the motor still in the car later on. |
#17
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I think the money wasted on W heads at this point would be better served buying suspension pieces to get it to hook up with what you have now, such as SS springs or ladder bar set up with coil overs and tube A arms and good adjustable race shocks.
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#18
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At this point of the discussion, price, for a street car, a set of prep/ported Edel. heads would still be cheaper and IMO, a better head to use in a heavy street car rather than a lightened street car in a street/strip arena.
Like I said before, the W-2's are great for a "Take no prisonners" effort. There really not as bad on the street on the low end as this post seems to suggeset. For a look at flow rates for the W-2 head, Herb McCandles flowed them and Edel. heads stock and ported. Again, the cfm rates are a bit similar, but there deciveving because the W-2 heads runners are larger in cc's. Therefore air and fuel mixtures move slower. Visit the "Stories" page at the Edel. Web site and read "Feeling light headed." Click here; http://edelbrock.com/automotive/stories/hpm907/index.html |
#19
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The only reason I think there a way to go, from my stand point of a nice bracket car there is always a need to find more power, seems he want to do some bracket racing. The money I have spent in the past on recon stock heads, only to find out later that a nice set of aluminum heads is the way I really want to go with now. So you save your money and buy the Performer RPM's like iin my case. Ok, now your going pretty good, have upgraded the car's converter, gearing, camshaft in a effort to go faster. Now after racing a while, time to step up to a good head, one that could be run quite good in stock form but has lots of room to grow. Now you save and scratch for the new race heads, like the full boogie heads Indy -1's. I started out not wanting a 9 sec street car, but Im looking now for ways to help me get there. Money not being a issue most people would run a w2 powered motor in a second on the street, they have for years. I know for a Fact there not bottom end torque killers in stock form, as most people are saying, I have first hand experiance with this engine, helped the man work on his car as a past time. I know what you guys are saying about how he may not need that type of head, but if he's going to buy all new parts anyhow. I dont see the diff in price, and eddy's arent that cheap. IMO if I was looking to go fast with a small block I would drop the dime on a set of W2's in a heart beat. Id love to see how soft my 408 with w2's would be at the track, and on the street (if I had one). There just a good investment, no problems resaling them. Read this article here about Mr 4-speed dynoing some small blocks, and flowing some heads, you will see in stock form there not far off the eddy's in stock form, not much to gain on the eddy's when ported. The W2's are a killer head when ported corretly, and will support 600+ horses in ported form, and flowing well over 300+cfm. These are my opinions on what I would do in his place, I think the machinest is tring to tell him somthing on where he may want to go. Just something to chew on. Its your car your the one who knows what you want, and last but not least it's your money. Just a diff point a view to think about.
http://edelbrock.com/automotive/stories/hpm907/ |
#20
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ok, i talked with my machinist this weekend, showed him the posts and advice y'all gave me. we also got all the flow numbers and specs of readily availible heads (indy;s, indy modified eddys, eddys, w-2, w-8's, stock, magnum, etc.) he had a lot of this on the shelf. he was also thinking my duster was going to see more race time than street time, not the other way around. so albiet some confusion and a lot of skoking at the counter, we got it all worked out. were going to go with the indy modified eddys, both for intake selection, port size, and mid lift flow. they also have a lot of room for expansion by porting, enough to support 600+ when the time comes. so i thank you for all the advice, and listening to my half intelligble explanations of what is going on
michael hey, y'all think itd be cool to run a six pack setup with this motor for the time being? itd look cooler than the air-gap anf 750 demon that'll be going on it.... but only cause i cant find a crossram |
#21
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Where are these W-2s coming from? You have them already? The shop has them and want to sell them to you?
DWC, who really knows these ATI type superchargers with a carb? I'd like to see a complete runing set up and what all it takes to make it run right. |
#22
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I have not run one myself, but you might check with some of the truck guys here. I do know that I don't like the blow through the carb type turbos or chargers. You have to run a special made carb for blowers and they are costly. If memory is correct, they cost about a grand. I don't think the carbs are included with the kits either. Just adds to the cost.
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#23
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70 barracuda:
one of the mopar rags did a two part story this year on the blow through and carb. look it up. lots of good info. also, the w-2's are not availible from anyone new, as far as i know. sorry. buddy of a buddy has a set that he was going to let go to the cause. mike |
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