Hughes HEH 1928 BL Cam

[choper]

Has anyone tried the Hughes HEH 1928 BL cam on the street?

How did the cam perform? Did it have a smooth idle and good vacuum for power brakes etc? What was mileage like and were there any downsides to fitting it? What did you replace and was it an improvement?

I am thinking about trying the cam in place of my original Chrysler P4452783 cam (268/284 208/220 .450"/.464") in my street 440 (Low comp 8.2, heavy car, auto box, 3.55, 26" standard torque converter, Edelbrock performer, Speed Demon 750 Vac)

[rumblefish360]

I think 32coupe is making use of that cam in a 360.

[choper]

Originally Posted by rumblefish360

I think 32coupe is making use of that cam in a 360.

Thanks rumblefish360 - Do you know how to contact 32coupe? I have tried a "private message" and a search without luck. The members list is blocked!

Thanks in advance.

[rumblefish360]

OK, choper. I tryed to do a PM to him myself. I must have made a mistake in his user name. I'll look for the thread and try a PM again.

[70AARCuda]

i have one in my 360 with Edelbrock heads. The engine is complete but has not been installed yet. I am waiting for the weather to cool off in Vegas...which it just started to.

Anyway, It should give you a smooth idle and good vacuum. Hopefully someone can give us an actually evaluation.

thanks
tony

[choper]

Originally Posted by 70AARCuda

i have one in my 360 with Edelbrock heads. It should give you a smooth idle and good vacuum. Hopefully someone can give us an actually evaluation.

Thanks Tony

Your engine looks great - I hope the combo works out for you. It would be nice if I could find somebody that is running this cam in a 440 for some real world feedback - Fingers crossed.

Thanks again

[coupe32]

hello, I was browsing and came across your post on the hughes cam. I am running the cam just one size smaller, a 1423. I believe hughes changed it a little and they now call it a 1523. The 1423 does have a smooth idle and does pretty well however I should have gone to the 1928. I have the cam in a 340 5 speed manual in a 32 chevy coupe.

[choper]

Thanks coupe32 ............ Glad to hear that your cam is working out for you.

I am trying to decide between the HEH 1928 BL and the HEH 2328 BL for my 440 - I thought the best way to find out what the cam is like on the street was by asking somebody who has the cam. These people are proving hard to find.

Thanks again

[440Ramcharger]

I have the Hughes HEH 1423 BL cam in my 440. This is one of their "old" grinds. The cam you are talking about is roughly one step up.
Mine is in a 4x4 Ramcharger with 3.21 gears. This cam gives very good vacuum, 13-14 at idle 850 with the AC on. About 14-15 with the AC off at 700 rpm. I have run this cam over 4400 rpm once and it seem to have a little more to go. If I let off of the gas at 75 mph, The vacuum guage will suck down to 24 inches. Great for power brakes! One of the guys on the board ran desktop dyno on my combo and came up with 499 lb/ft torque at 2000 rpm, and 364 HP somewhere in the mid to high 3000 range. Cam blows extremely clean emission wise. Slight tone at idle, definitely NOT choppy or loppy.

[choper]

Originally Posted by 440Ramcharger

I have the Hughes HEH 1423 BL cam in my 440. The cam you are talking about is roughly one step up.

Thanks 440Ramcharger

Sounds like the 1928 is about right for what I have in mind - the 2328 may be just a "tad" too much for a road car concerned with mileage and idle.

Thanks again.

[choper]

I have been asking Hughes about their cams .... After 4 messages I am still none the wiser about what compression ratio I should be aiming for in order to make best use of their HEH 1928 BL and HEH 2328 BL cams.

Their attitude is, "buy it and only then will we tell you about it" !

Have a look at the exchange and let me know how you would ask the question "what compression ratio should I be aiming for"? - My attempts just dont seem to be getting the message across!

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From Choper

Hi

On your page http://www.hughesengines.com/cams/bb_heh.asp under the heading "Big Block Hydraulic Matched Components" you have a title "Minimum suggested cylinder psi" ............. What is this meant to represent?

Is it a pressure that I am supposed to measure/calculate to confirm that my existing engine is suitable for the cam in question? Perhaps it is a pressure that you believe your cam will make when fitted to my engine irrespective of its configuration. Clearly neither of the hypothesis makes much sense ..................... What does it mean, what is the relevance and how do you calculate Minimum suggested cylinder psi?

Do you know of any customers that have fitted either of the following cams to their Mopar 440's ? If so could you give me their email address so that I can get a personal recommendation?

The cams in question are:-

HEH 1928 BL
HEH 2328 BL

or their older relatives:-

HE1923BL
HE2330BL

Thank you in advance

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From: "Hughes Engines Inc." <information@hughesengines.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Minimum suggested cylinder psi?

The cylinder pressure is what we recommend you have for the cam to perform at its best. If you buy a cam from us we can tell you what compression ratio to build your engine to so that you have the correct amount of cylinder pressure. We get this number using a computer program, your engine size, the type of head, the cam and your altitude. We guarantee that our cam will outperform any other cam of the same size or we will buy it back.

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From Choper

Hi and thanks for your email

In your email you said "If you buy a cam from us we can tell you what compression ratio to build your engine to so that you have the correct amount of cylinder pressure. We get this number using a computer program, your engine size, the type of head, the cam and your altitude." - OK this is the engine I have ...... will either of your cams (HEH 1928 BL or HEH 2328 BL) be suitable for my needs?

My 440 spec's are:

1974 440 with original bores and stroke
Late heads (unknown casting number) with 8.2/1 compression ratio
Original hardened valve seats for use with unleaded fuel
Sea Level use
93 Octane fuel
Heavy car
Standard "tight" Chrysler torque converter
3.55 rear end
Gear Vendors overdrive
727 gearbox
26" tyres
Mileage is a concern
Smooth or good idle is desired
Power brakes are used
Carb is 750 Vac' Sec' Speed Demon
Current cranking compression with plugs removed, throttle plate
wide open, engine warm all in the range 130/134 PSI with a Chrysler
P4452783 cam fitted (268/284 - 208/221 @ .050" - .450"/.458")

You go on to say "We guarantee that our cam will outperform any other cam of the same size or we will buy it back" - Sounds great but how will I know if I don't try all the other cams? ............. I hope to get it right the first time (fingers crossed!) hence this email.

You don't comment on my final paragraph - "Do you know of any customers that have fitted either of the following cams to their Mopar 440's ? If so could you give me their email address so that I can get a personal recommendation?" .............. Have you not sold any of these new cams yet? Perhaps you would rather send on my email address and ask your customer to contact me if he feels like it?

Forgive my reliance on email but I live in England and don't have much choice.

Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you.

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From: "Hughes Engines Inc." <information@hughesengines.com>
Subject: Re[3]: Minimum suggested cylinder psi?


I'll try my best to give you better answers.

Hi and thanks for your email

In your email you said "If you buy a cam from us we can tell you what
compression ratio to build your engine to so that you have the correct
amount of cylinder pressure. We get this number using a computer program,
your engine size, the type of head, the cam and your altitude."
- OK this is the engine I have ...... will either of your cams
(HEH 1928 BL or HEH 2328 BL) be suitable for my needs?

ANSWER: In your case I would use the HEH1928BL but you will need
to raise the compression.

My 440 spec's are:

1974 440 with original bores and stroke
Late heads (unknown casting number) with 8.2/1 compression ratio
Original hardened valve seats for use with unleaded fuel
Sea Level use
93 Octane fuel
Heavy car
Standard "tight" Chrysler torque converter
3.55 rear end
Gear Vendors overdrive
727 gearbox
26" tyres
Mileage is a concern
Smooth or good idle is desired
Power brakes are used
Carb is 750 Vac' Sec' Speed Demon
Current cranking compression with plugs removed, throttle plate wide open,
engine warm all in the range 130/134 PSI with a Chrysler P4452783
cam fitted (268/284 - 208/221 @ .050" - .450"/.458")

ANSWER: Not enough compression

You go on to say "We guarantee that our cam will outperform any other
cam of the same size or we will buy it back" - Sounds great but how
will I know if I don't try all the other cams? ............. I hope to
get it right the first time (fingers crossed!) hence this email.

ANSWER: You won't know for sure unless you have some experience with
the others, but....nobody else will give you that kind of guarantee.
We are that sure! We have made that guarantee for over 10 years and
have only bought back one or two.

You don't comment on my final paragraph - "Do you know of any customers
that have fitted either of the following cams to their Mopar 440's ?
If so could you give me their email address so that I can get
a personal recommendation?" .............. Have you not sold any of
these new cams yet? Perhaps you would rather send on my email address
and ask your customer to contact me if he feels like it?

ANSWER: We have sold dozens of these grinds. The two you picked are
our # 3 # 4 best sellers. I cannot give you any customer names or
e-mail addresses. You could go to some of the chat rooms on the
Internet and ask those guys. Try some of these,

www.moparstyle.net
www.moparts.org
www.moparchat.com

There should be plenty of guys there to give you an opinion.

Forgive my reliance on email but I live in England and don't have much choice.

Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you.

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From Choper

Thanks again

Can I come directly to the point ......

If I was to fit your HEH 1928 BL or HEH 2328 BL to my
existing engine (as described below) what cylinder psi does your
computer program say my engine would make? If I used my existing
engine (stroke bore etc) but was prepared to increase my static
compression - what static compression would I need in you opinion
to make best use of your HEH 1928 BL or HEH 2328 BL camshafts
what would the ideal cylinder psi be for my intended use?

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From: "Hughes Engines Inc." <information@hughesengines.com>
Subject: Re[3]: Minimum suggested cylinder psi?

Those are the questions we do not answer without a sale. If I figured
compression ratios for everyone that called that is all I would get
done. This is a service that only we offer and we use it as an
incentive to get people to buy our products. We will give you the
best tech support and service in the industry. All we do is MOPAR. We
can tell you where to watch for problems and how to avoid them. We
have been there and done that.


---------------------
Hughes Engines inc.
23334 Wiegand Lane
Washington, IL 61571

Voice: (309) 745-9558
Fax: (309) 296-9990
www.hughesengines.com
---------------------

[rumblefish360]

Not for nothin my freind, but this is something you should have known before you purchase anything. Not knowing what comp. ratio you should be running with any cam for your intended purpose is very foolish on your behalf and back Hughes on this. A simple cyl. pressure tester would have been all you need.
YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN.
IMO, Not more than 9.5-1 iron headed engine. An exact ratio to run would be great. But as long as your in the ballpark, you'll do fine.

Getting them to honor there claim may be harder than you thought. If you have never tested another cam, how can you be sure there cam is making the power they say it is. All you have is there word.

Asking them for customers phone numbers is absurd. IF you, a stranger called me, I'd tell you the cops will get a copy of your harrasing call after I tell you were it's at. Then I'd sue Hughes for giving my number out.

[choper]

Originally Posted by rumblefish360

1) "this is something you should have known before you purchase anything. Not knowing what comp. ratio you should be running with any cam for your intended purpose is very foolish on your behalf and back Hughes on this. A simple cyl. Pressure tester would have been all you need. YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN."

2) "If you have never tested another cam, how can you be sure there cam is making the power they say it is. All you have is there word."

3) "Asking them for customers phone numbers is absurd"

rumblefish360 I am beginning to think that this is an English American thing!

I will take your point one by one if I may:-

1) I do know my compression ratio it's 8.2/1 and I gave this to Hughes in my first email with my engine specs. I even gave them my cranking PSI and details of my existing cam. What I don’t know is what effect fitting their cam will have on my "Dynamic Compression Ratio" AFTER fitting their cam. I believe that their HEH 1928 BL cam is very close to what I need after trying it in Dyno 2003, but I know the programs limits and wanted to check with the manufacturer before paying out $. I have also used "RSR Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator" to work out my existing "Dynamic Cranking Pressure" and the program says 150.24 PSI for the engine as Chrysler designed it in 1974. Running the HEH 1928 BL the programs says 149.73 PSI with the 8.2 Compression ratio. To get the program to make 160 PSI the program needs a C/R of 8.65. .............. Ok but Hughes says "160 Minimum suggested cylinder psi" - MINIMUM not optimum! And does "suggested cylinder psi" really mean "Dynamic Cranking Pressure" or ?

As for "A simple cyl. pressure tester would have been all you need. YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN" ..... I think we are a little past that - don’t you ?

2) I have tested another cam it is the Chrysler P4452783 that is fitted - What a haven’t tried is a whole load of cams in this combo - I am a street user looking for a more modern cam and looking for an improvement, not perfection. I don’t have the cash, time or inclination to try hundreds of cams - I will leave that to the likes of Hughes with the hope that they will share their knowledge and guide me to their product that I will be happy with. They get my cash, I get the cam I need and I tell all my friends what great people Hughes are.

Think of the option - Buy wrong cam - Fit it, run it, junk it, would you go back to Hughes again? I want the information BEFORE I part with cash.

3) "Asking them for customers phone numbers is absurd"

Does RTFQ mean anything to you? It's very useful in examinations and indeed it works here - "Read The F------ Question" ! I asked for emails not telephone numbers and I even suggested that they forward my email to any customer that may be able to give a recommendation ............ Do none of their customers have a good word to say about Hughes or are they all paranoid?

Thanks for your p

[440Ramcharger]

EZ guys. On the Hughes website left side, there is "special features". Click on "customers cars" and there may be comments from the customers and cams that may be helpful to you.

[chitown hustler]

I run an older hughes cam 2300 which is made by Engle cams it,s a straight pattern 504" lift 223 duration at .050" this is the earlier model of bigger cam your asking about. It,s in a 440 with approx. 9-9.5 comp with an edel. rpm intake , 1 7/8" header s , 750 carb and it pushes a 4000lb ++ B body around really nice. It works fine with a 3.23 gear and a 2400 rpm converter. the car runs low 13 s and is very mild and streetable and has excellent response and mid range. JMO With your lower compression I think the smaller cam you mentioned would work just fine. If your not happy with the answers/ help hughes is giving you try somewhere else.

[choper]

Originally Posted by 440Ramcharger

EZ guys. On the Hughes website left side, there is "special features". Click on "customers cars" and there may be comments from the customers and cams that may be helpful to you.

Thanks 440Ramcharger

Jaroslaw Szepietowski, Bill Tucker, Russ Toalson & Ron Welcer all use the HE2330BL cam which is close to the HEH 2328 BL ........... Shame Hughes dont give any contact deatails.

Thanks again - good idea.

[choper]

Originally Posted by chitown hustler

I run an older hughes cam 2300 which is made by Engle cams - I think the smaller cam you mentioned would work just fine. If your not happy with the answers/help hughes is giving you try somewhere else.

Thanks chitown hustler

Are the current range of cams still made/designed by Engle? Maybe they could answer my questions?

"If your not happy with the answers/help hughes is giving you try somewhere else" ...... Good idea, that's why I am posting here!

Cheers.

[fish440]

I ran the 2330 with a 110ºlc in my 440 4-speed dart with hp manifolds and about 9.5:1 with 3.23 in the rear. ran a 12.8 at 106mph in the 1/4. It is a nice cam. It had a very small lope when cold but smoothed out when warm.

I also install the 2330 cam in my friends 440 that was a stock rebuild(8:1) with headers that ran 13's. But I had them grind his cam on a 112ºlc to help with his idle and the low compression. He ran a 2200 stall and 3.23's in the rear.

Mabe get it cut on a 112º lobe center if you are looking for a better id

[choper]

Originally Posted by fish440

I ran the 2330 with a 110ºlc in my 440 4-speed dart with hp manifolds and about 9.5:1 with 3.23 in the rear. ran a 12.8 at 106mph in the 1/4. It is a nice cam. It had a very small lope when cold but smoothed out when warm.

I also install the 2330 cam in my friends 440 that was a stock rebuild(8:1) with headers that ran 13's. But I had them grind his cam on a 112ºlc to help with his idle and the low compression. He ran a 2200 stall and 3.23's in the rear.

Maybe get it cut on a 112º lobe center if you are looking for a better idle.

Hi fish440

Thanks for a very interesting post ........ How did your friend's car idle with 112ºlc when cold/warm?

For interest ....

The 2330 with the standard 110ºlc had 54º overlap, with a 112ºlc it had 50º overlap.

The 2328 with standard 111ºlc has 51.5º overlap, with a 112ºlc it has 49.5º overlap.

Maybe, just maybe the standard 111ºlc HEH2328BL will have a smooth idle, that's if your friend's similar spec engine was smooth when cold? Any idea about

[fish440]

My friends 440 Wasn't new car smooth But It did not lope either. It sounded like a muscle car. His car also had power brakes and they worked fine with that cam on a 112º I think we installed it at 109º

Give Engle cams a call they will make you anything you want. Hughes doesn't make his cams he farms them out. Engle made Hughes old grinds(the one I had). I do not know who makes the new one

[choper]

Originally Posted by fish440

My friends 440 wasn't "new car smooth", but It did not lope either. It sounded like a muscle car. His car also had power brakes and they worked fine with that cam on a 112º I think we installed it at 109º

Give Engle cams a call they will make you anything you want. Hughes doesn't make his cams he farms them out. Engle made Hughes old grinds(the one I had). I do not know who makes the new ones.

Thanks fish440 ..... Very usefull feedback that will help me with my cam choice.

Be interesting to know who designs / makes Hughes new range of HEH cams - Anyone ?

[Chumley]

Dave Hughes designs all of his own cams. Even the ones Engle ground were designed by Dave Hughes. The cams are now all CNC ground by a "builder only" cam shop that does not compete with him for sales like Engle did.

[choper]

I have been wondering what Hughes Engines mean by "Minimum Suggested Cylinders PSI" - how do they measure/calculate this?


Are they talking about Dynamic Compression Ratios? - These could be worked out using RSR's Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator

I asked Kevin at Hughes and he kindly told me that they are in fact numbers created in "Engine Analyzer Pro". The relevant number can be found at the bottom of the page following "Calc HP" has been run. Look at "General Engine Calculations" > "Theo. Crank Comprssn, PSI". This is an estimated value that would be similar to your engine cranking at 1000 Rpm! Not quite what I expected!


For a full description of what "Theo. Crank Comprssn, PSI" means download the following Manual and look at page 92.

[MOPARMANJAMES]

I've got Engine Analyzer Pro, I can run the numbers for you later if you want, but I'm at work right now, I'll be home in about 11 hours or so.

[choper]

Originally Posted by MOPARMANJAMES

I've got Engine Analyzer Pro, I can run the numbers for you later if you want, but I'm at work right now, I'll be home in about 11 hours or so.

Thanks MOPARMANJAMES for the offer, but I also have the program.

I have been asking Kevin at Hughes to make his Hughes cam and head files available via the Hughes web site. He says he has had to make mods to Engine Analyzer to make it match the real world results. I believe these “mods” are in fact, not program mods, but "fudge factors" that have been shown to modify the output to match the real world. I have also asked for more info about these factors and have asked Kevin to pass them on to Perf' trends, Engine Analzer's manufactures.

If you would like some Hughes files perhaps you could get in touch with Kevin at Hughes and back up my request for a download section.

Thanks agai

[MOPARMANJAMES]

I believe these factors are probably measurements like parasitic losses, port flow adjustments and so-forth.
It's only as good as the information that you enter, how accurate that is is up to the user.
I am contemplating the purchase of the port flow analyzer program to further supplement my software library and have a virtual flowbench.
I am a little surprized that you have the program, you can enter your engines specifications conservatively and get a good idea of what kind of power you are going to make. I believe you can also see what kind of vacuum you are going to have.

[toad490]

Hi, getting a accurate cylinder pressure at cranking speed is impossible, the bigger the cam the bigger the problem. I felt the same way about Hughes listing cylinder pressure not compression ratios. So I bought a used roller cam off eBay and had it ground to the hughes specs. It cost me $150 total instead of $395,so it won't hurt so much if its not right.

In fairness to Hughes no one else offered a roller cam in the lift I wanted (.510) and if I need to go up or down a notch I'll buy it from Hughes.

[MOPARMANJAMES]

[QUOTE=toad490]Hi, getting a accurate cylinder pressure at cranking speed is impossible, the bigger the cam the bigger the problem. QUOTE]

The programs they have now come very close to actual pressures, that's why alot of big shops use them, it saves them time and money also.

Just for example, I put a cam in a stock 77 440 that was 244@.050, .510" lift,
108LSA, in my program. The engine has an 8.2:1 compression ratio.
It gave me the Dynamic compression ratio of 5.85 and a theoretical cranking pressure of 131 psi.
For me, it beats the hell out of several cam swaps and days worth of testing. With the program, I know I'm within 4% of real world conditions, probably closer.
It's part of the reason I'm running mid 12's on pump gas in a 3700# car with 3.23 gears and stock valves.
I hope to see 11's after going to the bigger 2.14 and 1.81 valves, and findig a descent machinist that can hone a block properly for moly rings.
Iv'e cracked open my vally pan due to blow-by even though I had a breather cap!

[waldo67]

well dave at hughes is can be a real big ass period he was nice as hell to me when i ordered my heads and forked out the 2600 bucks for them but after i recieved them and installed them i had some intake problems due to the fact that he milled my heads 64 thousands you know what he told i dont have time for those kinds of problems if i could id punt those heads up his ass hell the car ran better with the stock j heads on it so as for hughes engines they need to stick building gm products that is what they started doing all those years ago and they need to go back to it their better with the brand x engines

[choper]

Well it took some time but here is a link for a guy "A34" who installed a Hughes HEH1928BL Camshaft in his 440 http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/in...?topic=58071.0