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  #1  
Old 10-24-2004, 10:05 PM
72dart318 72dart318 is offline
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started disassembly today, on the 360 that I bought yesterday, I got the heads off, intake, rocker shaft, exhaust manifolds, haven't gotten inside yet. The bores didn't look very worn. I don't know when where going to this but were planin on takeing it to the machine shop maybe sometime this week to get the bores checked, the block hot tanked, and the crank checked over. Where going to but keith blacks in it, and use the 318 connecting rods because there float rods. I want to know if you have to zero decking is needed with keith blacks. Were probably going to use aeroheads iron 587 castings thats what they used in battle of the titans and made 400+hp. Get a good cam but don't know what kind or size.
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Old 10-25-2004, 09:07 AM
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Did they raise there price on the aeroheads now there $599.00 a pair, they were $499.00 a pair. Do the 587 castings come with them no matter what now. To upgrade to 587 castings it was a $100. Now I hope it just comes with those castings.
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  #3  
Old 10-25-2004, 04:19 PM
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It's not the piston that dictates zero decking, it's the head choice.
Example; A zero deck pistion and Edel. heads being closed and a gasket of .040 will create a good quench area.
Now, if the piston is down the bore to much, we'll use .030 for example only, the total area under the head is now up to .070. The quenched area is now gone and unused. What was a good area for combustion is now gone and useless. The now huge gap is makeing less power to the tune of "Better of with other heads."
If your going to use closed chambered heads, your best off zero decking the piston via block milling or correct piston selection. Or both if need be.
Good choice in rods. The heads price is like everything else in life. Nothin ever gets cheaper unless it's a going out of biz sale or get it the Freak out of here sale. At $50 more a head, it's still a good deal. Call them to be sure of what your getting.
Flow rates for the head will help with cam size and overall specs. Generally speaking, a mild 280 duration will have enuff punch to get you to 400 HP.
Hyd. cams offer ease of installation and longevity.
Mech. cams are a little harder to instll because of rocker set up, but offer a little more RPM and in general are more aggressive.
Cams that offer a split duration will help heads that do not flow so well on the exhaust side. This also increases RPM a little.
A good example cam would be a Comp. Cam or Isky. Mega cam like 280* Hyd. (Adv. Duration) .480 lift, 110 C-line.
A very nice split duraton cam is a Comp Cam, the Extreme 274H.
Give Racer Brown a call if it gets to crazy on selecting a cam.
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  #4  
Old 10-25-2004, 05:04 PM
72dart318 72dart318 is offline
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Thanks. how much power could you lose if it was that far down the hole with open chamber heads.
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  #5  
Old 10-25-2004, 05:55 PM
72dart318 72dart318 is offline
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also are the 915/587 j head castings capable of making 400hp or so with a 280H comp cam or lunati. The heads will be fully reworked, no porting though just the j heads. They made 400+hp in the car craft battle of the titans with those heads but they used a bigger cam like 312/312 adv. duration, and like .525/.540 lift.
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  #6  
Old 10-25-2004, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
how much power could you lose
Could is key wording. It was also ment to be thought of in use with a closed chambered head. So, it becomes more like "How much could I gain" with closed chamberd heads.
Since your doing this engine with 587 castings (?) AKA "J" heads, I would not sweat 400 HP. Just pay atten. to the details. This is where it all counts.
Again, depending on how well the head flows, it should be easy to make that power. Worst case , pocket port.
In an older mag write up, the mag focused in on a young lady whom built a 360 making 400 HP. The power makers are as followed.
750 cfm, RPM intake and heads, 280 mega cam and street headers.
So far, you seem to lack in the head flow department. Since this is the case, your left with a few options.
1. Port the heads (to meet or exceed the)
2. Edel heads (she used.)
3. use a big a$$ bump stick that the engine build off used. The reason they used this cam was to squezze out as much as they could with the equipment they had. They knew the heads didn't flow so well. So they jambed with a cam. Now the flip side is, (As if you were there and went this route) as soon as money allowed, a better head selection could be made for a very serious increase in power. And I mean serious increase.
Just remember, that the larger duration cam has a higher starting RPM band then the smaller 280 cam.
The difference is something like this;
280 adv. rpm band approx. 2000 - 6000
312 adv. rpm band approx. 3500 - 7000
Comp cams 312Hyd. cam is 4000 - 7000
(And just for ref, there 312 mech roller is rpm rated at 5500 - 8000 rpm.)
The only problem in running a cam so large is how well it'll run on the street. Seeing that you'll need a big converter to help you out in the sky high rpm band.
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  #7  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72dart318
also are the 915/587 j head castings capable of making 400hp or so with a 280H comp cam or lunati. The heads will be fully reworked, no porting though just the j heads. They made 400+hp in the car craft battle of the titans with those heads but they used a bigger cam like 312/312 adv. duration, and like .525/.540 lift.
We get over 400 hp with our race engines using X,J and U heads with a vary small cam with no port work, so 400 + is not a problem.
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  #8  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:09 PM
72dart318 72dart318 is offline
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This place where I live wants $175 for pocket porting. So your saying I can achieve the 400hp mark with compcams 280H or can I use mopars 292/292.
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  #9  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:11 PM
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Biggrin

292 is more than you need. Look for a good dual pattern cam in het 272 276 range. Bigger is not always better when it comes to cams and the dual pattern helps those heads to breath on the exhuast side which is where they need the most help.
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  #10  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:14 PM
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I agree, but, if the head dosen't flow what it takes with use of a small cam, then where is he?
DW, whats the spec on the stick. Type of lobe and liffter.

For the most part, "J" heads flow right around that 200+ cfm mark. That should be sufficent enuff. (Note the word should.)
Thats not a garente (sp) nor is the mark of 400 HP.

Looking at the general rule of head cfm X 2 for HP output, theres enuff. But thats a general rule.
The other part is how well it flows and where in the curve for performance as well as that info helping with cam selection.
It is possible that a 280 comp will do the trick.
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  #11  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:17 PM
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Biggrin

It's a hydro lifter. I'll see if I cn find some specs. Can't remember right off top of my head.
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  #12  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
292 is more than you need
Way more.
Quote:
272 276 range
Hummm, whats the @ .050 on that?
Quote:
Bigger is not always better when it comes to cams and the dual pattern helps those heads to breath on the exhuast side which is where they need the most help.
I agree.
72dart318, you need not go big on the cam. That 292 cam I have run. Not really pleasent on the street. Liveable, but thats it.
I believe you can get 400 HP with the 280 cam.
But was still curious on head flow. Thats why I say "It should." make the power.
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  #13  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:41 PM
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72dart318;
See here for example. Heres Edel. RPM cam for Chrysler;
Advertised Duration : 308° 318°
Duration @ .050 : 234°/244°
Lobe Separation : 112°
Lift (I/E) : 488"/.510"
RPM Range : 1500-6500
Note the advertised duration vs the duration @ .050.
A long and slow opening of the cam.
Pit this cam against a unit from Hughes for example. Note the difference between the advertised and @ .050 rateing.
This could also be what the "Team" did in the engine build off.
Better cams from Hughes or Comps Extreme line have more agressive rates than units from Edel. or Crane.

That be the ones I'd look at myself. A Hughes example; http://hughesengines.com/cams/sb_heh.asp#HEH3237AL
Hotter Street performance and strip: HP exhaust or headers, performance intake 3.70:1+ gears, 4 bbl or 3x2, Idles so you know its in there. HP ported Stage I heads 160psi suggested cylinder pressure 2800rpm + stall. Very hot daily driver.
I also have had a taste of head work even on mild cam applications. I think it works great. When I first stumbled on the hughes site and looked around to find this page,http://hughesengines.com/heads/head_index.asp I was delighted to see someone agree with me.
Though not a mandotory thing, best performance from the cam is felt.
This is why I was saying and asking about flow.
Just food for thought.
I think you'll do well no ma
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  #14  
Old 10-25-2004, 08:56 PM
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I have spoken to this fella from time to time. He was very helpful in a few questions I had. He also has/had the luxury of doing the best thing for an engine, he dynoed them.
Click here and see what I mean. I should have thought of this days ago!
http://www.geocities.com/alwest_83/dyno
Pay atten. to package #3.
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  #15  
Old 10-25-2004, 09:12 PM
72dart318 72dart318 is offline
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So your saying I should get some port work done to them once I get them correct.
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  #16  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:36 PM
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Biggrin

Really no ned for port work with what your wanting to do. If you do port them do some bowl clean upand port the exhaust side.
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  #17  
Old 10-25-2004, 11:20 PM
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I agree. But I do think you'll like the port work done. Save it till later.
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  #18  
Old 10-26-2004, 12:48 AM
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There's no reason to use 318 rods. The stock rods will be plenty strong, and they have the pressed in pins to begin with. Check my post on the "340 Rods and Bore" thread for the reasons.
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Old 10-26-2004, 01:38 AM
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Where can the thread be found?
In your opinion, is it better to use a floating rod or a pressed pin rod?
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Old 10-26-2004, 07:38 AM
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We use the '68 to '69 full floating pinned 318 rods in our race engines. Only these two years will hold up to 6800 all night long. And they are about 75 or 85 grams lighter than all other small block rods. They need to be sized, magnafluxed,shot peened and polished with ARP rod bolts, but they work and they are light. The floating pin prevents gaulling at the piston. Very important if your running KB's or cast type pistons. I know a lost a big block drag car years ago ue to a gaulded pin on #3 cyl. Matter of fact after the piston crumbled to pieces the pin was found fluch to one side of the doubled over rod. Floating pins are the only way to go on performace engines.
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Old 10-26-2004, 12:53 PM
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It's in the Vintage Mopar section. Using the pressed in pin is, in the long run, safer because with fewer moving parts in the reciprocating mass, there's less to break. I'm not saying that the retaining rings are bad, but if they let go, you have a catastrophic engine failure on your hands. Wouldn't you rather have one less thing to worry about? Always balance everything, though. Even with the stock rods in the stock cylinders. It not only frees up a little horsepower, it increases the longevity of the engine.
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  #22  
Old 10-26-2004, 04:55 PM
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you can also use the teflon restraining plugs, thus avoiding messing with the clips and keeping the pins centered at the same time
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Old 10-26-2004, 07:15 PM
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We've run floating pins for years with no lock problems at all. Your more likely to gaul a pin and psiton than to beat out a lock. And all our engines are balanced, even our street engines. Makes them live longer, but have seen no hp increases on the dyno from a balance job.
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Old 10-26-2004, 08:47 PM
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would I need to balance it if I got the rods resized.
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Old 10-26-2004, 10:20 PM
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Always, on every engine you build if you want it to live.
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  #26  
Old 10-27-2004, 12:29 AM
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you know for about the same money you are going to have at reconditioning the 318 rods you could buy a set of eagle i beams from mancini racing for 239 bucks their bushed on the small end for floaters and they have new rod bolts in them allready your going to have to get the rotating assembly rebalanced anyway so why use old rods when you can buy new stronger then stock rods for about the same money
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:34 AM
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No, you don't need to get the rods balanced because they're resized, just in addition to it. It's possible that not all of the rods will need the same amount of metal taken off, so always make it a matter of course to balance your pistons, rods, and crank whenever building an engine, no matter what it is or how much other work goes into it.
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  #28  
Old 10-27-2004, 02:51 AM
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Its my understanding that while getting all the piston and rod assemblies to weigh the same is good,its still not balanced until you equalize the weight of the rotating mass by either drilling the crank throws or adding malloy metal to them.I could explain this further but then I would have to shoot you. Just kidding
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Old 10-27-2004, 04:50 AM
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There's actually two ways to balance the reciprocating mass: the first is as if the pistons were moving straight up and down, which is the most common way to do it, and then there's the circular balance, balancing the parts as if they were moving in more of a circular pattern. This way, as I understand, is the more difficult and expensive way to go, and is used almost strictly for high end race or exotic engines. The equipment for the latter is uncommon and expensive.
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Old 10-27-2004, 11:58 AM
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ok here we go the rods on a 318 340 are lighter then the 360 rods and the 318 340 rods are for a internally ballanced engine 360 rods are heavy for the external balance hence if he goes with the lighter rods it throughs the balnce out the window so now the rotating assy needs to be rebalanced with the lighter rods the new pistons ring weight and bearing weight of the rods
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