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  #1  
Old 10-27-2004, 12:55 AM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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Help Block Fill!?!?!?

Here we go again. I know this issue has been discussed in the past, but I can't seem to get a definitive yes or no from someone who's actually done this. Is it wise to fill the engine block in a street driven car? The advantages are a stronger block that can take more abuse and make more power, but can you keep it cooled properly on the street? I really like the advantages of a filled block and want to do this to the 400 stroker for my car, but not at the risk of not being able to drive for more than 20 minutes and then having to shut it off for an extended cooling off period. OK guys, who really knows?...............djs
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:27 AM
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ok when you put block filler in you fill it up to the bottom of the freeze plugs on each side of the engine so if you look at it closely you will see how much room you are going to loose for coolant. now if you cant get enough coolant to flow around the cylinders which it physicaly cant due to the bottom of the cylinders being sealed off from coolant it will over heat from lack of coolant and lack of circulation around the bottom of the cylinders hope this helps and if i was a smart ass i dident mean to be
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2004, 07:38 AM
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I agree. The water wont flow properly through the block even with a half fill. IT will over heat on the street. It might help a 600 hp and up engine, but it wont help your street engine at all. It will hurt it though when it over heats and leaves you walking.
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Old 10-27-2004, 09:13 AM
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The gauge won't even show the motor overheating as well, since the coolant is only cooling half of the block. This causes the low end of your block to become very hot, and typically causes bearing failure and crank damage sooner than on a "track only" vehicle. There were other topics on this discussion, and it was determined that even a partial fill was detrimental to a street car.

Vote: Don't do it.
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Old 10-27-2004, 11:15 AM
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Default Block filling

Your definitive answer is NO.
I belive there is a fine line between a race engine and a street engine.
Filling the block is a very good idea and also required in the search for max power.
But it is definitely over the line.
Once a block is filled there is no going back.
For street use it would not make sence at all.
You can make more power then street tires and surfaces can handle.
With out restricting your block to race only use.
So why waste the block?
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:33 PM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Waldo67, it's better to be a smart ass than a dumb ass, and your comments are appreciated. I prefer someone who can take a strong stand on an issue rather than being wishy-washy! Anyone else have any input, I'm all ears.............djs
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djswwg
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Waldo67, it's better to be a smart ass than a dumb ass, and your comments are appreciated. I prefer someone who can take a strong stand on an issue rather than being wishy-washy! Anyone else have any input, I'm all ears.............djs
For a street motor, it's not a good idea...for the reasons mentioned above. Just have the lowdeck block sonic checked, particularly on the thrust side and use studs with billet caps, align bore, balance etc....

Ron
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  #8  
Old 10-28-2004, 08:24 PM
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Default I vote no to block fill

As stated before, the 400 is rigid enough to handle 600hp. You'll have a hard enough time keeping it cool when your stuck in stop and go traffic, invest in longer rods to ease your concerns if necessary.
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Old 10-29-2004, 10:08 AM
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Thanks to firefighter and moparmanjames for the input...........djs
PS I allready have the long rods! (Manley 6.965")
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Old 11-02-2004, 01:42 AM
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Hi, I'm in the proccess of putting a 4.15 crank in my 383 with a dual stage nitrous. I'm going with a main cap girdle, studs, and billet caps. The girdle might be overkill but for $350-$450 I'll sleep better.

What are the advantages of longer rods? I have planned on useing 6.76 rods.
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  #11  
Old 11-02-2004, 02:16 AM
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Default Longer Rods

Longer rods are advantageous in several ways.
First off, they decrease the angle of the rod as the crank travels through it's rotation, thus relieving stress from sideloading the piston and borewall. Second, the piston dwells at TDC longer, building more cylinder pressure and decreasing the amount of timing advance required for optimum performance.
Third, they allow for a smaller, lighter piston. Many argue that the extra weight of the longer rod offsets this last advantage, but from what I've read, I'd rather have the longer rod than the larger piston.
In summary, you get a more reliable engine that makes a bit more torque than a comparable short rod engine.
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Old 11-02-2004, 02:33 AM
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Great reply ,as usual MJ. So hemi rods would be good to use in 383?
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:25 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I have used several partially filled big blocks in street & strip use. Filling to the bottom of the freeze plugs will not affect cooling at all, but you won't be filling a lot either. I have had one 440 block that was filled close to the top of the freeze plugs, on longer highway trips the oil got so hot you could see it loosing some viscosity from the pressuregauge. Switching to synthetic oil helped that situation, an oil cooler would propably have taken care of it completely. The bearings were OK, no effects on them during four years of use (700+ hp, about 100 runs at the track and several thousand street miles). Like said above, filling will not effect teh water temperature. In a street & strip engine I would fill max. to the lowest piston ring travel point. And even in a race engine you have to leave it pretty low in mopars since the head bolt bosses are pretty deep.

In a low deck stroker, you definitely will not use hemi length rods. Even with the 6.76" rods the compression height of the pistons will be only 1.1+". It means that you will have the oil ring overlapping the pin hole and the piston height will be very small overall. That will do no good for piston life, but I don't know how many miles you intend to drive. Our 4.375" 4.15/400/6.76" dished pistons weigh less than 500 grams each, so they are light. I would really prefer even a shorter rod than the 6.76; a rod in the 6.5" range might be a good compromise in a street & strip car?
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Old 11-02-2004, 09:32 AM
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Default Long Rods continued

DartGT66, that is a very good point, I still say use the longest rod possible for a given combination.
I haven't built any low deck strokers yet so I don't know what's available for pistons, but I did build an RB 4.25 stroker on a budget so I just used six pack 6.768 rods since that's what I had to keep the price down.
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Old 11-02-2004, 09:51 AM
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Because of the deck height you have to compromise a little. Still not as much, as with a stock block 454 chevy. If you want to keep the rings out of the pin hole, you must have at least about 0.8" above the pin hole to be able to fit all three rings in there properly. And still that is pretty tight.
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  #16  
Old 11-02-2004, 10:04 PM
djswwg djswwg is offline
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toad490, you will have to use the stock length rod (6.765) because with a stock deck height of 9.98" you only have 1.14" left for piston height with the 4.15" stroke and that's if you don't mill the block. Ross and JE both make pistons in the 1.12" range. I'm using a 3.75" stroke, the short pistons and long Manley rods. I like long rod/short piston combos as they work better and last longer. as for ring grooves in the pin hole, I keep hearing that it might create problems but I've never seen any. But maybe someone has had trouble, I don't know. I prefer the long rod advantages and build like that. You could also consider Eagle's 3.90" crank with a hemi rod that would leave you with 1.165" for piston height, but I can't say if pistons are available for that height. Dartgt66, thanks for the block filling info. It seems like there is not a firm yes/no answer to this situation. Maybe I'll just go to the bottom of the frost plug holes like you did. I always run syn. oil and have a good oil cooler. Thanks again guys...........djs
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Old 11-03-2004, 03:40 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Short piston rocks more than a tall one, and that costs longevity. Still should be good for a lot of miles, but a taller will last longer. We have used a piston with the oil groove in the pin hole for three years now, and have had one symptom caused by that. We have a second set of pistons, maybe because of the pistons overall height one pistons skirts were collapsed slightly. Might have been repairable, but the pistons were wrong for our application anyway, so we decided to get a new set. Custom pistons are available in (almost) any configuration, they are about 100$ more expensive than stocking pistons. But back to the problem; we propably had some small particle loose in the oil that found its way in to the piston pin, and from there to the ring groove causing the oil ring to stick. Found out that something was wrong when we took heads off and one chamber was oily. I think that is not too common or very dramatic either, but still that would not have happened with a "regular" piston.
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Old 11-03-2004, 06:32 PM
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Thanks Dartgt66, that all makes sense........djs
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:04 PM
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[QUOTE=DartGT66]Short piston rocks more than a tall one, and that costs longevity. Still should be good for a lot of miles, but a taller will last longer. QUOTE]

I don't think this is always the case. You see if the piston pin is moved up closer to the pistons center of gravity, it actually becomes more stable.
This is usually the case with stroker pistons. Also if there is enough clearance, the designer usually provides a decent skirt design for the piston.
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:12 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I'm really no expert on this "short piston no good" theory, just referring to what I've read elsewhere.
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  #21  
Old 11-04-2004, 12:05 PM
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Niether am I, I just read about all this and try and understand it.
I just try and listen to the very succesfull engineers in racing and read whatever they write when they decide it's time to let some of us know what they learned.
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