Tranny 1st gear not working

[71dart666]

Well my 318 finally finished and is now running, I broke in the cam put the tranny through all the gears a few times while the car was idling and took it for a couple of quick spins down the street. At a stop I shifted down into 1st gear and thats where the problems started. The car acts like the parking brake is on when its in first gear. It will start to roll just a hair then once the engine starts to rev the thing wont move. Second, drive, reverse and neutal all seems to be doing thier job but first isnt working. Its a brand new freshly rebuilt 904 from Cope Racing transmissions. Shift kit, new bands clutches all that. Anybody have any insight into what the problem might be? Could it just hopefully have something to do with the shifter linkage?

[rumblefish360]

It probably just needs an adjustment. John Cope does good work, so I would not think it a bad tranny.
Just make sure your full on the dip stick. (Warmed up, level and in neutral. I knew you knew that.)
Then make sure it goes into all the gears. Get a freind to move the shifter if need be while you look under the car to see and hear it click into all the gears.
Piece of cake.

[MoparMarcIdaho]

Definitly call your supplier,is that a reverse manual valve body?

[71dart666]

Its a standard valve body, no manual shifting. I ran it through all the gears today again several times. Put the car in reverse.. let it back up a few feet.. pulled it forward in drive, the problem didnt go away. Its weird because it would creep a bit at idle but if I gave it gas the car would stop. Fluid level looks about right too. I put in 8 quarts and at idle it shows its full. Id certianly hope its a linkage adjustment issue but if thats the case then wouldnt all the gears be slightly off?

[MoparMarcIdaho]

Unless its a small converter 8 isnt enough.Try checking it in neutral.

[cutting torch]

This might be a little premature, and you might want to wait for some more suggestions, but here goes... In manual 1st, the low reverse band is applied to help the overrunning clutch. Also, it provides engine braking by preventing the overrunning clutch from freewheeling. This band is applied in reverse also, with much more pressure, since the overrunning clutch does nothing in that direction. IF you have a bad trans case, the low-reverse servo pressure can leak through the accumulator cavity into the front band servo, and partially apply the front band, which acts just like a trans brake. I ran into this problem when I first built my clutchflite. It was sluggish in manual 1st, and would not even roll in reverse. I hooked up some pressure guages, and found out that the front band was applying when it was in reverse. Needless to say, I had to cut the bellhousing off of another case and start over.

Anyway, I have an idea that could help you diagnose the problem. Back off the front band adjustment (count the turns so you can put it back where it was--three turns should do it) and take it for a drive to see if the problem persists. Keep it in manual 1st when you do this, so it doesn't try to shift to 2nd, since second won't work with the band backed off.

I am sure that the problem I'm describing here is rare, so wait for some more ideas before you think the worst for your tranny. I hope this helps!

torch

[cutting torch]

Sorry-slow typist. Three posts while I was typing mine. Make sure you ckeck the fluid in nuetral, since the pump does not fill the converter in park.

torch

[pishta]

Cable operated shifter? My Hurst needed a touch more cable to reach back to low when all other positions were good, just a thread or so. Trans brakes work on the low/reverse active to get their no go mode while holding the trans brake servo. Food for thought.

[71dart666]

Well Ive never used a transbrake or even been in a car with one but from what you have described my car seems to act like its got one with this first gear issue. I will have to check the fluid again in neutral and see whats up there, but if its alittle low on fluid im still kinda skeptical that would cause this problem. I dont think id be willing to tackle taking the tranny apart and trying to figure out whats wrong with it that way. If anything ill get a local shop to do the work for me.

[waldo67]

give crt a call they built it let john help you he truley knows his stuff

[cutting torch]

Backing off the front band is an external adjustment, so no teardown is required. If anything, you can provide more info to Cope for them to work with. Good luck!

torch

[71dart666]

Ok I just talked briefly to John at Cope. He told me to make sure the fluid level is full and that the kick down linkage is on the car. Then he said if that doesnt work well go from there. I know he knows 100 times more then I do about trannies but I dont see how the kickdown linkage is going to matter when the car is already in first gear ( or at least it should be) and its creeping from idle. None the less I will take the guys advice and go from there.

[71dart666]

Progress report, or lack there of. Checked fluid and added some more and now its definatly full and the problem hasnt gone away at all.

[MoparMarcIdaho]

Pressure gauge hooked to the test ports is next then.Sounds like its in 2 gears at once to me.

[71dart666]

Do I just unscrew one of the little plugs on the tranny to check that? I dont have a pressure tester or really much knowledge in general when it comes to transmissions. Somebody told me that the low clutch might have been put in backwards then I heard from another person that the front pump might be broken or defective?? Dont know.. maybe ill just pull the damn thing and take it to a local shop and have them sort it out.

[MoparMarcIdaho]

Well that would be a good idea but you need to let them run the pressure tests first to help diagnose the problem.Pump is working or it wouldnt even move.

[71dart666]

Arrggg. That'd mean towing the car down there $$$ or driving it which might further screw things up...

[MoparMarcIdaho]

Get back with your builder and see what he reccomends.

[Dick]

Originally Posted by 71dart666

Ok I just talked briefly to John at Cope. He told me to make sure the fluid level is full and that the kick down linkage is on the car. Then he said if that doesnt work well go from there. I know he knows 100 times more then I do about trannies but I dont see how the kickdown linkage is going to matter when the car is already in first gear ( or at least it should be) and its creeping from idle. None the less I will take the guys advice and go from there.

Do you mean that you test drove the car without the throttle pressure linkage (kickdown) connected? If so, why?

[mopar413]

I do know if the kickdown linkage is not adjusted correctly the trans will sometimes not pick up low gear..good luck.

[creative1]

first of all, there ISNT any "kick-down linkage" on a mopar transmission. what there IS is a throttle pressure rod (or sometimes a cable).

second, if the pump wasnt working, the car wouldnt move...period. there isnt a "front" pump, cause if there was, there would also have to be a "rear" pump. there is only one pump, so no need to differentiate between the 2.

i am with anyone else that says contact john cope about the trans. he is highly regarded, and i am pretty sure if something is wrong, he will do whatever he can to fix it. dont blame him because he said check the fluid and make sure the "kickdown" (ugh... i HATE that term!) is adjusted correctly... he is just trying to eliminate the 2 most common trans problems. i also believe that he would be well within his rights to void any warranty if someone not authorized by him were to work on that trans. he builds specialty transmissions, and probably doesnt want some "mr badwrench" tinkering with his work. i know i wouldnt want someone that didnt have a clue messing with MY stuff!

i dunno why everyone thinks that the "cure" for all trans problems is to disable the throttle pressure rod, but it seems that is the norm. then they wonder why 200 miles later the car wont move in any gear!

[71dart666]

Well first off the old linkage bar didnt hook up or even come close to hooking up with my carb/spacer so I figured id just leave it off for awhile untill I got the bugs worked out of the car and then id go ahead and have one custom made. My dads Belvedere has a 904/273 and his linkage isnt hooked up and hes had no problems at all like the one I am describing so its kinda hard for me to buy that this is the solution to my specific problem. I am sure having it hooked up or not would factor in with alot of various transmission issues but I doubt on mine. None the less ill follow through with what he said and see what happens.

I guess I am whining a bit but its mainly just venting frustration, this project has been time and money consuming and getting all the bugs worked out of things is a pain. I know everybody here can relate to that.

Also I am admittedly pretty ignorant to the inner workings of a transmission and a friend of mine talked to a guy who builts trannies and he said (second person hear say) that it might have been the "front pump".

[Dick]

I'm gonna jump in here because I earlier mentioned the throttle pressure linkage, which you referred to as kickdown linkage. I am far from a tranny tech and I haven't fooled with those for years, but that linkage tells the transmission where the throttle is and it somehow helps determine how much hydraulic pressure is applied during shifts. Obviously, the more power the engine is putting through the driveline, the more the clutches/bands and such would tend to slip. Therefore, this linkage adjusts the amount of hydraulics used during the shift. I believe it also helps determine shift points, but I don't know how.

Now, from my experience dinking with my dad's 1960 Dodge Dart, I know that the procedure for adjustment was to insert a 1/8" diameter rod through two holes in the firewall bracket and the linkage, and then lock the adjustment. That was kind of the baseline that the dealer used. I know that tweaking the adjustment would result in a snappier 1-2 shift, but the down side was that the shift point was higher at part throttle. Too much adjustment resulted in the tranny not shifting out of first at all on light throttle settings. It would just hang in first gear. So, adjustment was critical to the proper function of the power package.

As far as your father's car being just fine without any linkage, I cannot imagine how or when it shifts. However, I can't believe that the way it operates is correct or conducive to transmission life. That linkage is probably worth a buck or so. The auto manufacturers would die to be able to save even fifty cents per vehicle. In volume production, that adds up to a chunk of change. There was a problem with Ford Mustangs back when they first came out back in the 60s. I can't remember the problem, but it had something to do with a sheet metal bracket that would have prevented failure of something that was a potential safety issue. Ford ended up in court and it came out that Ford was aware of the problem but didn't correct it because it would add a dollar to the cost of each car. They opted to let their insurance companies pay for the accidents and lawsuits. What I am saying here is that if the throttle pressure linkage was not necessary, Chrysler would not have installed them, period. Of course, they are a thing of the past today with everything being electronically controlled.

Now, the pump issue, front versus rear, is interesting. Back in the "good old days", you could push start an automatic transmission equipped car because they had a front pump and a rear pump. One pump built pressure when the tailshaft was turned, like in push starting, and the other pump built pressure when the input shaft was turning, when the motor was running. Somewhere along the line, it was decided that it was safer to jump start a car and that the second pump could be eliminated as a cost savings. Therefore, cars of today have only one tranny pump.

Sorry if I have muddied the waters, but I wanted to bring these points up.

Good luck with it.

[cutting torch]

There are two pressure signals in your transmission. Throttle pressure: this increases with the increase in throttle opening, through the linkage. Governor pressure: this signal rises as road speed rises. When the governor pressure rises to meet your throttle pressure, the trans upshifts. If you romp on it, your throttle pressure goes up, and if it goes higher than governor pressure, it will downshift. The throttle pressure in your tranny also dictates the amount of pressure used to apply your bands and clutches. It would not make sense to have maximum holding pressure on all those parts if you're just putting along at light throttle (low torque output). On the other hand, if you put your foot in it, you want later shifts, and higher holding power for your clutches and bands, since now you have high torque output. The throttle linkage tells the trans whether you are driving like grandma, or driving like Joe Leadfoot. If your linkage is disconnected, the trans always thinks grandma is driving, so when Joe Leadfoot gets on it the tranny will shift early and soft, with plenty of slippage, since it has no idea it should be shifting later and applying more pressure to prevent slippage.

torch

[Dick]

DANG! Yeah, Torch.........That's what I wanted to say! Nice explanation. Like I said, I'm no tranny ace, but I remember a few of the basics.

[creative1]

thats a pretty good anology, torch... except that the throttle linkage really thinks that no one is driving, cause it hasnt moved (when it is disconnected). as far as it is concerned, the engine might as well not be running, so why should it bother supplying ANY pressure to the clutches? of course, it has to apply some pressure if the engine is running, because there is always fluid movement. it is just that the pressure never increases. so the transmission operates like the engine is idling, when it is really being asked to go to "all ahead--- warp zillion"... clutches slip and fry, fluid boils, and transmission dies DEAD! i have the remains of a 727 out of a 318 powered pickup in my kitchen. the truck had no kickdown linkage on it when i got it. among those remains are 10 steels, ALL of which show various signs of melting and overheating. it shouldnt take a rocket scientist ASE certified mechanic to figure out that that linkage was put there for a very important reason...

but why bother with minor details when i ALWAYS happen to have a couple thousand dollars lying around and NOTHING to spend it on... yeah right!

[MoparMarcIdaho]

In the past when Ive switched carbs or whatever and the throttle link couldnt be attached Ive just wired it back to about half throttle position to be able to at least move the vehicle.I dont see any reason for a no first gear situation to occur due to the throttle link not operating.

[cutting torch]

I've done the same thing before. It's a little annoying to drive, but at least it won't hurt the trans.

torch

[71dart666]

Ok thanks for the extra input guys, I guess you have established that its very bad for my transmission to drive it without the kickdown (throttle pressure linkage) I am glad ive only put about 1 mile total on the car so far just takin it up and down the street. However, wouldnt manually shifting it into first override any need for the tranny to want to shift itself up into second? That would hold it in gear anyways without the need of the fluid pressure determined by the throttle pressure linkage right? Thats where my problem occurs. I also notice it lugs poorly AT IDLE when put into first gear so the throttle pressure linkage should then have no factor since no gas is being given, right? Then once i give it gas the car stops, the more throttle the faster the thing will stop.

[John Kunkel]

You're correct in assuming that the throttle pressure linkage has nothing to do with the current problem, the problem is internal.

Most often problems like this are caused by cross leakage, either in the case or valve body; the cross leakage causes the transmission to go into two gears at once and this binds up the whole works.

Return it to Cope and have him correct the problem.