440 build up questions

[ShadowGoomba]

Ok, the 440 that I have is a 72 block (unbored as far as I know at this point) with the stock cast heads at the moment with a 727 trans behind it. The motor is going into a 74 Charger that will be a Weekend road/strip (probably 70/30) car that has enough power to prove what a MoPar is capable of (got some Chevy friends who think they're Top Dog and I would like to teach them a thing or two since it'll be one of the few performance MoPars around my area.)
I am planning on completely going through the engine before this coming summer when the body work should be completed. I am going with the Edelbrock Performer RPM 84cc heads (to keep with the Eddy theme my motor has taken on already: intake, carb and cam). <<< The "power package" I picked from Edelbrock was an Idle-5500 RPM version as it won't see the track a whole bunch so higher RPMs aren't a great concern. The point I'm really up to is the choice of pistons and connecting rods. From what I've been hearing about 9.8:1 CR is the highest I'll be able to run on pump gas (correct me if I'm wrong). Seeings as how the block may still be a STD bore I will check the condition of the cylinders and if they're good I will leave them but if they need touching up I'll go .030 over. From what I've read around here a flat top piston would be my best bet for a mid-to-upper level power house (again, correct me if I'm wrong). For brands that I've been looking at so far I'm either thinking a JE, CP, or Keith Black piston... comments/recommendations on the 3 brands? Heard good and some bad about them all but nothing turely 1 way or the other on any of them.
The connecting rods to go along with them won't be the stockers or "6-pack" rods is the one thing I'm sure of. I see that 440source.com is selling rods that are labeled only as "aftermarket racing": either H or I beam versions. Anyone have experience with those ones? CP advertises the Pankl rods... reviews/rec.'s on them? Any other suggestions on a good choice for rods?
The crank, baring any major defects in it upon closer inspection, will be the stock one due to overall cost of a newer stronger crank. It'll get the ARP bolts for it tho for a little added strenght. Timing will be handled by a set of Gears if I can find a good place to get Single-bolt cam gears with the dual idler setup. And in a slightly more aestetic (sp?) upgrade I'm going with the aluminum roller rockers and probably roller tappets as well. Stall converter choices are another thing I'll be looking into shortly, nothing too radical but just enough.

Any more power adding suggestions would be appreciated (other than a blower as that is a little more than I'm willing to stick on there right now). Thanks guys... sorry for the long post on my little problem

[Bunkster]

Originally Posted by ShadowGoomba

Ok, the 440 that I have is a 72 block (unbored as far as I know at this point) with the stock cast heads at the moment with a 727 trans behind it. The motor is going into a 74 Charger that will be a Weekend road/strip (probably 70/30) car that has enough power to prove what a MoPar is capable of (got some Chevy friends who think they're Top Dog and I would like to teach them a thing or two since it'll be one of the few performance MoPars around my area.)
I am planning on completely going through the engine before this coming summer when the body work should be completed. I am going with the Edelbrock Performer RPM 84cc heads (to keep with the Eddy theme my motor has taken on already: intake, carb and cam). <<< The "power package" I picked from Edelbrock was an Idle-5500 RPM version as it won't see the track a whole bunch so higher RPMs aren't a great concern. The point I'm really up to is the choice of pistons and connecting rods. From what I've been hearing about 9.8:1 CR is the highest I'll be able to run on pump gas (correct me if I'm wrong). Seeings as how the block may still be a STD bore I will check the condition of the cylinders and if they're good I will leave them but if they need touching up I'll go .030 over. From what I've read around here a flat top piston would be my best bet for a mid-to-upper level power house (again, correct me if I'm wrong). For brands that I've been looking at so far I'm either thinking a JE, CP, or Keith Black piston... comments/recommendations on the 3 brands? Heard good and some bad about them all but nothing turely 1 way or the other on any of them.
The connecting rods to go along with them won't be the stockers or "6-pack" rods is the one thing I'm sure of. I see that 440source.com is selling rods that are labeled only as "aftermarket racing": either H or I beam versions. Anyone have experience with those ones? CP advertises the Pankl rods... reviews/rec.'s on them? Any other suggestions on a good choice for rods?
The crank, baring any major defects in it upon closer inspection, will be the stock one due to overall cost of a newer stronger crank. It'll get the ARP bolts for it tho for a little added strenght. Timing will be handled by a set of Gears if I can find a good place to get Single-bolt cam gears with the dual idler setup. And in a slightly more aestetic (sp?) upgrade I'm going with the aluminum roller rockers and probably roller tappets as well. Stall converter choices are another thing I'll be looking into shortly, nothing too radical but just enough.

Any more power adding suggestions would be appreciated (other than a blower as that is a little more than I'm willing to stick on there right now). Thanks guys... sorry for the long post on my little problem

ok, here we go: go with the cps cuz thay stronger than those. Then tht rods are in good. the gears is a good one okay but leave the stall to hi and gaboots!

if that 70/30 wer mor lik 68.7/27.4, then ok her we go again!

[DartGT66]

Your '72 propably doesn't have very high CR. Your pistons will stay well below deck at TDC. The first thing you have to consider, that are you going to upgrade altger, and if so , how much? You said you have performance package in there. It's a really tame package and you will not end up making so much power that you would need any fancy parts in the engine. You do not NEED aftermarket rods, or expensive forged pistons. The stock LY's and hypereutectic or TRW(Speed pro) "six pack" pistons will do just fine. Same with the main caps & bolts, oiling etc. Of course, maybe it's wiser to get new rods compared to the cost of prepping old ones etc. With a performer intake, you are not going to get much advantage of your good heads either. The cam is very mild too, but positive thing is that it should work just fine with a stock converter and gear ratio! The main thing in my eyes is the possible later upgrades, and I would make the short block ready for them.

I would do a complete good quality rebuild even if the cylinders would seem decent. I would also have the block align honed with main studs and stock caps. I would do the oil tricks; drilling & threading for 1/2" pick up and enlargening the oil passages from the lifters to the crank (not the ones from crank to cam) . And of course the regular cleaning of casting flash etc.

I would use the 440 source I beam rods because of being so lazy, the piston choice would be more difficult. I would use flat tops adn shoot for zero deck height. TRW's are reliable, but very heavy. KB's are lighter, but not forged, that will propably not be a problem though. Forged racing pistons cost even more, but are more than 100 grams lighter than even the KB's. And they are ready for floating pins. So, maybe I would go sith ROSS flat tops, and pick them (& the rods) with .990" pins for even a lighter package. After that the crank & block needs to be machined & balanced for the new parts, block street honed for moly rings.

Then I would mock it up and measure the deck heights at all corners, take apart and mill as needed to achieve zero deck. With 844cc heads, 4cc valve reliefs and about 10cc gasket (regular cheapo fel pro's) would give a tad above 10:1 with good quench.

I would use a milodon windage tray with either a milodon low profile pan & matching 1/2" pick up, or a MP hemi pan & matching pick up (cheaper) maybe adding a baffle if needed (don't remeber how it is stock). A regular Melling high volume oil and regular clevite 77 bearings with 3/4 or full groove mains would be used. I would choose either Childs & Albert Zero Gap rings (less work) or good quality moly file fit rings.

I would not use a cheapo gear drive, instead I would pick a Rollmaster chain & gears. If gear drive is what you want, go with a milodon fixed idler unit, and in all cases consider going with a three bolt cam gear & cam.

As far as the cam goes, I would take one from a reliable source like Straightline performance, Racer Brown or some other source that knows cams and mopar engines. I wouldn't count out a solid licfter cam, the negative thing is that it needs to be adjusted during maintenance and makes some noice. For this kind of car, a hydraulic roller from Straightline would propably be the best choice, but it is expensive. ( I think somewhere around 230-250 degrees at .050" lift would be fine depnding of the drivetrain and your personal preferences) Nevertheless, I would go with adjustable steel rockerarms and get proper length good quality pushrods for them or make my own out of a cut to kength pushrod kit (do not use mopar performance cut to length pushrods unless they have changed them in the recent few years, they were soft thin wall rods). If going with a hydraulic flat tappet cam, I would even accept the stock rockers & pushrods, but if going with adjustables certainly pick steel bodied ones to gain reliability. RAS and competition cams make good roller tipped ones, and many manufacturers have their own no roller adjustables for less money. If using stamped steel, get a set of new HD units.

As far as the heads go, I would be tempted to "clean" the ports at least a littls. If you want to port them, there is some instructions about porting BB Eddies in the moparts.com's tech archives. And check that hte springs are right for the cam you choose.

Performer intake would have to go. Either I would use Edelbrock RPM, M1 single plane or a Holley street dominator. The RPM is propably the best overall for a 70/30 streeter, but it's tall and may cause hood clearance problems. A 440 makes great torque and can handle a single plane, the streetdominator is an old, excellent intake and a pretty low design. The M1 is also a good one and the height is "in between" There are other single planes that work too, but at this point I would avoid the racier models like Victopr and Team G.

1 3/4-2" primary headers with 2.5" exhaust with good performance mufflers and X-pipe would make a great exhaust. You still need ignition, if money is no concern go with a MSD billet distributor and MSD 6 AL box. If not, I would get a built distributor & box from http://www.4secondsflat.com/Ignition.html. A distributor phased right and curved for your application is a remarkable driveability and performance factor in a street & strip car.

As far as the carb goes, a 750-850 cfm vacuum secondary carb would be my choice. You may give up a little performance with a 750, it's a bit on the small side. Choose a brand you feel comfortable with, my choice would be a prepped holley or a speed/race demon. I think this would make a great engine for your charger, and the short block & heads would have room to grow to about 600 hp on pump gas.

This is how I would do it, but of course it might stretch the budget a little.....

[ShadowGoomba]

Thanks for the input Dart, any recommendation on boring the block? I see Ross pistons only advertises for their +.030 and up from what I've seen.

[powerdodge]

I see.. you ai'nt really big daddy, just 18..?
like me, we are young, and we are the ones who gonna take the mopars in to the future! we must not dissapoint the "masters"

just invest some $$ in that engine, and you take the chebbys!

listen to dartGT66, and do AT LEAST 1/2!! you won't regret!
THE RIGHT COMBO IS THE KEY!
you can have all the $$$$$$$$$ components in the world, but it would not beat $$$ components if it's not the right combo...
-so listen to the ones that give away the right tips for free!

it have newer been free to go fast, but invest a little!

IF you change to ARP in rod or maincaps , doesn't it need honing/lineboring?


MOPAR FOR LIFE!

sry for my english!

*speed kills - drive a chevy, and live forever*

[ShadowGoomba]

The investing money part is something I've been finding out by pricing parts but quality comes at a price. The parts for the engine I've totalled up so far (with most of the major stuff on there) and for the suspension work on the front end (excluding new T-bars as of right now, need a good source for them) is up around 5K. As for the honing/lineboring if I use ARP for rods/mains I guess I don't know right now, input form the men who know would be nice there.

[powerdodge]

jup, quality does count! But I mean - There are no golden rule that expensive parts are the best ones!

well, yeah! just use the allredy out-tried parts

hmm...I payd about $20 each rod for shoot-peen and honing (I'm runnnin smallblock)
lineboring I dont know, I guess about $150 here in norway...

5k..yeah...well, I can tell you, If I should build that engine here in norway, it be at least twise! I did pay $500 before my pistons was in my garage (KB),
and the block, I had to send it 1000kilometers to get a good shop...
I just placed a order at manciniracing $800, shipping charges $175(express then...)

well, ain't cheap living! but it's worth it, every time I run away from chevy,ford, ricers!

[ShadowGoomba]

Well, as a little update, got the custom roller cam from Straightline Performance being started, also I've decided on the Ross flat-tops for my combo on the 440source.com I-beam rods for my combo as well.
I have plenty of work ahead of me... with having to remove the bigblock Kframe from my 72 Satelite to replace the small block one in the Charger currently (sending the BB into Firmfeel for their sandblasting, reinforcing, and powdercoating so that'll be prepped and ready). Getting the aluminum body insulators to replace the stock rubber "biscuits" the Charger has now as well. Upgrading to the tubular upper contorl arms and getting reinforced lower's. What can I say, I'm a sucker for the upgrades
Getting a good idea of the cost on just materials... around $6500 now (plus or minus a few hundred for upgrades that might wait untill later). Any of the more experienced guys got a general estimate for pricing on the machine work to the block? By picking the roller cam setup are there any oiling issues I need to address in the blocks oiling setup?
Dart brought up the drilling/threading of the pickup to a 1/2"... this is something most machine shops will do as well correct? Sorry if the questions are dumb, I'm new to block work and I'm trying to learn.

[DartGT66]

If your block is good enough, .030" overbore will be just fine. I don't know about the machine shop prices in USA, but a machine shop should be able to drill and tap for the 1/2" pick up. I have done that myself, and it has worked OK. You should drill the channel for the whole length up to the "corner", and tehn blnd the "inner corner" with a carbide bit from the oil pump flange side to make the curve smoother. Did you get the hydraulic roller or a solid one? No need for oiling mods with either, but with a solid lifter you can block the drivers side oil passage to the lifters. That is not necessary either and you have to know how to do it not to block wrong passages. The biggets benefit of that is, if you loose a pushrod and the lifter comes up on that side you don't loose oil pressure. If you are in contact with Scott, say hi from jyrki, the weirdo from Finland!

I'm not a B-body expert, but as far as I know (and that may be wrong), teh '72 has a different K-member and suspension set up than a '73 or newer? In the older cars with the biscuit insulators the BB & SB K-members were the same. At least the torsion bars are different too because of the newer cars "ISO" front end, but I'm not sure if the K-member fits directly. I believe the '72 does not have those insulators between the frame and K-member, but am really not sure about this.

[ShadowGoomba]

I picked the hydraulic roller (Scott was helpful there). He's going to make it a roller version of his 226/238 cam: Duration@.050 = 226/238, Lift 1.5 = .503/.500. As well he said it would make the most of it with a 2800 stall and either 3.55 or 3.73 gears in the rear. All told with the roller lifters and upgraded springs for the Eddy heads it's gonna run me about $1,150 but it should work like a charm. More updates when they come... or if it's something you guys want me to keep you up to date on the build... or not, which ever i guess.

Dart, I'll tell him you said hey next time I get contact with him.

[Bunkster]

Originally Posted by ShadowGoomba

..... More updates when they come... or if it's something you guys want me to keep you up to date on the build... or not, which ever i guess.

ok...here we go....thrn updtes kep m coming cuz u r de man of da moprs and thiz cam is king....hah!

[DartGT66]

We have one hydraulic roller from Scott with similar degrees, but I remeber a bit more lift. It's been done pretty close to the receipt I wrote before except that the heads are untouched. It's using prepped stock rods, TRW pistons, RPM intake, 850 race demon and small primary headers. The engine is in a '73 LOADED Coronet, it weighed 4280 lbs on official scales with the driver. It's set up with 3.55 gears and a 11" converter. The chassis sin't done for acceleration, and the biggish double pumper doesn't work too well with such a low stall & relatively long gears. So, the trap speeds propably tell more than the horrible ET's; it runs over 113 mph speeds in the 1/4, andwith a hidden "top shot" nitrous over 120. Not bad for an old and heavy 4 door.

[NZ 440R/T]

Originally Posted by DartGT66

1 3/4-2" primary headers with 2.5" exhaust with good performance mufflers and X-pipe would make a great exhaust.

Thats what I am running on my 440ci. With 2-1/2" Exhaust tips being the only differ. 0.02c

[ShadowGoomba]

Dart, you were right about the lift being more than I posted above... .540/.540 are the final numbers with 1.5 ratio rockers. Tomorrow starts the full disassembly of the front for the motor work. I've decided it was just way too much work to snake that 440 in there the first time so I'm taking a slightly different approach at it this time... gotta pull the K-frame out anyway to notch it for more oil pan clearance and to send it in to FirmFeel to get reinforced and powdercoated.
Well, I'm off to get quotes on the block work around town here, so I'll bring some more updates as they come.

[djswwg]

I agree with all the replys given, with one exception. I would use bigger exhaust. 2"x31/2" headers and a 3" dual system. The engine will like it way better, and especially if you decide to make even more power later. Also, if you haven't allready bought them, choose a longer than stock rod and a correspondingly shorter piston; there's a lot of good reasons why. With the aluminum heads get zero deck clearance for best quench. Ross is a great choice for pistons, Manley,Eagle,CAT, etc. all make good rods. Best of luck, should be a screamer...................djs

[DartGT66]

The bigger exhaust sure wouldn't harm anything, but most likely not help either fi teh 2.5" is done correctly. At least changing over didn't help my car at all with a stage VI headed 440, just made it louder.

[djswwg]

That's very interesting DartGT66. my old 906 headed 440 with 292/501 hyd cam woke right up after changing from 2.5 to 3" exhaust. One of the single best power improvements I ever made. Also as I said in my reply, if he does more power upgrades later, the exhaust is allready there(why do it twice?)...............djs

[DartGT66]

Of course it wasn't a direct comparation, with the 2.5" exhaust I had two no name turbo mufflers and two glass packs in the ends, and with the 3" single flowmasters
We dynoed our current 528 with 3" duals with borla style mufflers, and it put out 780 hp.

[djswwg]

780, SWEET!.........djs

[DartGT66]

I was more than happy too, the 704 ft-lb peak tq wasn't bad either for a home built engine without any parts testing or tuning. The combo seemed to be very good. I later installed a cam with way less degrees and it feels even better now, it idles smooth, has enough vacuum for power brakes, didn't seem to loose much power and still pulls as high as it used to with the bigger cam.

[swingin72]

Dart,

Want to post a shopping list of everything that went into your motor? I'd LOVE 700+ HP! I'd need some mean fatty slicks though... my dart won't hook up even with the 451 and 3.23 gears.

[djswwg]

Very impressive DartGT66! I too would be interested to know what's in that motor. What's the compression ratio? If you want to keep it to your self, that's OK too, I think we'd all understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!djs

[DartGT66]

Nothing secret there. Some of the parts used are a little exaggarated & hardcore, and it may seem like a high$$$ thing, but that is not actually true. Inititally I bought the basic parts from a friend of mine who covnerted to a chevy for about 3000$ as a complete race engine and modified it from there during a long period. The head castings, intake, connecting rods, ignition etc. are still from those days. I have had this engine in various configurations for 8 years now. Have had to change the block & crank and some valvetrain parts becasue of failures. The block is now aluminum, because at the time no iron blocks were available. But here is the information about the engine at teh time it was dynoed:

-Indymaxx block, 4.5" bore (muscle motors)
-Mopar Performance 4.15" forged 8-bolt crank
-Mopar Performance windage tray
-Self made centersump oil pan, pretty similar to Milodon low profile. Static pick up in the pan, single external oil line to the front of the block whre it goes to the pump
-Melling HV oil pump
-Milodon gear drive
-Childs&Albert 6.76/.990 speedway rods
-Custom Ross pistons, slightly above the deck, 34cc D-dish
-File fit rings
-Ultradyne solid roller cam, 283 @ .050", .683 lift
-Competition Cams lifters
-Shith bros cut to length pushrods
-Indy 440-1 heads, ported, 2.25" intake valves, 330cc intake ports, 62cc chambers, 11.3:1 CR
-Fel Pro 1039 head gaskets
-Indy single plane dominator intake
-Chuck Nuytten 8896 pro street dominator
-Mopar Performance race distrbutor, locked
-MSD 6 AL + programmable timing computer
-Accel 300+ wires
-NGK BP6ES plugs
-Moroso electric water pump
-2x32" headers in to 3.5" collectors
-reducers to 3", Simons oval mufflers
I guess that's about it. It did very well in the dyno, and had a wide torque curve. I'll put here a couple of numbers. Didn't get to tune it up to par, because I had had the carb sit dry for the winter and the needles didn't operate too well, A/F ratios were alla over and didn't respond to changes. Tried another carb from a 600 cu in SG engine, 1250 dominator Holley. With that one the A/F ratio was consistent, but about 10% rich. Igniton timing was 34 degrees. Made the same peak with it than with my own carb, better low end torque but slightly less peak. These numbers are with the borrowed carb:

rpm,tq,hp
3000,649,371
3500,672,448
4000,688,524
4500,682,584
5000,692,659
5500,689,722
6000,664,759
6500,627,776

Peak power was at 6600, 780.8 hp, and peak torque at 5300 704 ft-lb measured in a Stuska engine dyno.

We also run the engine at lower rpm; at 1300 rpm it produced 327 ft-lb and was above 500 at 2200 rpm.

The engine was in my '66 Dart GT street car, it weighed 3310 lbs with the driver. Stock style suspension with SS springs in the rear, 727 with 8" converter and a 8 3/4" with 4.10 gears and a sure grip and 13.5/30/15 ET Streets. Never got it to work to it's full potential mainly because of a too small converter for my engines rpm range. I tried four different, and could brakestall them to well over 6000 rpm. Driving it at teh strip was that you had 7000 rpm from start to finish. Best results was with an ATI converter that pulled between 6300 and 7000 and the best ET was 9.69/142.5 mph on pump gas. I drove a lot in the streets with the dart, even occasionally in the winter on snow tires, and did very well in smaller street races and was national 3. in streetpoints in 2002 running against full race "streetcars" http://www.riversidecruisers.fi/images/Bop0118.jpg

Also raced it abroad a few times taking wins in Estonia, here is a couple of funny pics taken in the center of Tallinn their capital city) with old winter tires, the ET was 14.2!
http://tfr.cafe.ee/static/pics/speedest2001/74.jpg
http://tfr.cafe.ee/static/pics/speedest2001/75.jpg


After two years of use, the old MP crank surrended and developed a huge crack, so I replaced it with an Eagle crank. At the same time I also sold the Dart and detuned the engine with a smalle rcam because the use was planned to be totally different. The new cam is from Scott Brown and it has about 255 degrees at .050". It's very calm now and produces enough vacuum at idle for the power brakes etc. It seems that the peak power didn't drop much wiht the cam swap, but way less lope and much more sivilized, just like I wanted it to be.

The new car is a valiant I originally bought in the 80's. I completely rebuilt it in 1.5 months two years ago and made it a car able to handle and a good top speed. Some other changes to the engine were done too, it now has got a Craigh Davis EWP water pump system and a Jesel belt drive. The trans now has a 9.5" PTC converter, 3.23 gears and 11.5/28/15 ET streets were used at the strip. The car weighs 3510 lbs and run 10.54/133.5 mph last summer. I lost a rocker arm in the fall which hurt a lifter and the cam, so next summer I will have a new cam and Erson 1.6 lifters instead fo the 1.5 Indys before. Will also try the MT radial ET Streets at the strip, and the wheels will be black steelies with hub caps. http://www.riversidecruisers.fi/imag...4/p8212564.jpg

[ShadowGoomba]

Damn fine build up list there Dart! A little bit more power than I'm planning on getting out of mine, but then again, mine probably won't cost as much as you spent on yours... I would love to build one to run with yours some day tho
Only some minor updates this time around. I've checked and double checked the VIN on the donor Satelite to make sure it is going to be compatible with the Charger K-frame wise so now is just the problem of actually getting the swap done... and who knows, it may even give me a little more clearance between the 440 and firewall in the Charger. It should make it easier in any case as opposed to using the small block K-frame even with the Schumacher conversion mounts. I have the roller on the way now from Straightline, and it should be here by middle of next week according to Scott. I've been doing my best to get work done on the car, but it's about 10 miles from me and it does make time an issue. I have also decided to go with some Mopar Mobile 1 Tri Synthetic oil, never used it in any other of my cars, but since it's going to be a fresh rebuild on the 440, I shouldn't have any problems w/ leakage... and at just over $2/qt I figure what the hell.