Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!



Go Back   Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! > Technical Forums > Performance Talk

Click here to search for Mopar cars and parts for sale.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-27-2005, 09:42 PM
B.Tallent B.Tallent is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Co. U.S of A
Age: 67
Posts: 173
Default octane boosters

I know some of this has been covered before but!! with all the additives available today the tetraethyl lead is supposed to be the best and it is what i use. but there is also toluene which was in thinner in the old days and then i read that aniline oil is also good but i have never heard of and dont know what this is? and also methyl alky. is used. what else is there that would slow the combustion process in high squeeze motor?just curious
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-28-2005, 03:25 AM
toad490's Avatar
toad490 toad490 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vernon British Columbia
Age: 70
Posts: 1,148
Default

Big cams with long duration help. There's less cylinder pressure at lower rpms. There's things you can do with timing and distributor curving or high dollar ignitions that have programable ignition timing are probably the best. Octane boosters only boost the octane by one maybe two points. Might help if your engine was right on the edge of knockin but it'd be much cheaper and safer to look at plugs, timing and ignition to correct it. There's also water and alcahol injection systems. Some pistons have antidetination grooves, what ever they are.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-28-2005, 01:12 PM
creative1's Avatar
creative1 creative1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pittsburg, KS
Age: 71
Posts: 461
Default

i have never heard of the 'aniline oil' you mentioned, so i dont have any clue about it.

toluene works... kind of. if you add say 20% of that to 100 gals of gas, you will gain a little octane, but it isnt much... maybe from like 91 to 92.

to the best of my knowledge, tetraethyl lead is the only thing that works well. a small amount of it will raise octane a long way. i dont know how much of it to add, but i dont think it is very much. i did a minimal amount of research on this a couple of years ago, then promptly forgot it all. well, all except the fact that tetraethyl lead is the only cost-effective thing that works.

there was a post on another board somewhere that said you can mix 100 octane avation gas with pump gasoline and get a significant octane boost, and there may be something to this idea. the reason given was that the 100 octane av gas had lots of tetraethyl lead in it (more than was needed for 100 octane at ground level) because it is intended for operating at say 10,000 feet altitude. this 'extra' lead would do the same thing as the tetraethyl lead additive... raise octane.

all the rest of the "octane boosters" on the market are really "wallet boosters"... and it aint YOUR wallet they are boosting! these contain (among other things) kerosine and mineral spirits, which when mixed with large quantities of gasoline will burn, but wont change octane by ANY measureable amount.
__________________
Where are we going?... And why am I in this hand-basket?
84 D250/440/3.54:1 dana 60/16" wheels, 31" tires/A-727trans/3" header mufflers/weighs 5000 lbs/13.22 sec @ 103+ mph.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-28-2005, 01:34 PM
TK TK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: not here anymore
Posts: 8,876
Default

100LL avgas is desighned for air cooled engines, the compression ratio on a average airplane engine is about 6-1. The reason avgas is so high octane is (1)you dont want a air cooled engine to get hot, high octane gas burnes cooler
(2)an airplane engine (piston) runs at full load at say, 2800 rpm, so there goes long camshaft duration mentioned earlier, at that rpm, detonation is a big risk, and, say, a lycoming 0470 is 470 cu in, in a six cylinder, see what there up against?
Mixing 100LL with premium will do wonders, I once heard a ANI say that 1/2 n 1/2 with 90 oct raises it to about 94 oct. If you do play with avgas, its a good idea to mix 2 stroke oil, or marvel in it. Avgas is very dry. Another way to think of this is something I learned from my grampa, who was racing and flting airplanes long before most of us were born, and with snowmachines I have found it very true. " your combustion chamber is fuel cooled"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-30-2005, 04:40 AM
plydus340's Avatar
plydus340 plydus340 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: marlow oklahoma
Age: 61
Posts: 229
Biggrin

I'm running 10.5 to 1 comp. in my 440. I had a little clatter so I tried mixing 101 av. gas. 5 gal. to 15 gal. tank with 91 oct. premieum. That fixed it. Just for fun I once put 10 gal. in and it made no differnce.
Funny thing, I had a 750 edelbrock. Changed to a 850 mighty demon, and I don't have to add the av. gas anymore. Something else, I added 5 gal. of 111 racing fuel in place of the av. fuel once. The av. fuel mixture worked better, at allmost half the price. Just my 2 cents (which is worth what you paid for it). Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-30-2005, 09:23 AM
Scatman 340's Avatar
Scatman 340 Scatman 340 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Watertown, Wisconsin
Age: 68
Posts: 126
Default

About 11 miles up the road I can buy racing gas at the Sunoco station. Pull right up to the pump and pump it in the tank or a Gerry can. This probably sounds dumb, but how do I get the aviation fuel. Probably at the airport, but I`ve never bought aviation fuel.

Rock`
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-30-2005, 10:19 AM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Del Rio, Texas, USA
Posts: 919
Default Getting Aviation fuel

Around here, you can buy Av gas at the airport or at the local distribution center. The local distribution center sells it to the public, no special permit required. They will pump it into fuel jugs, not a car's tank.
I use Av gas for several reasons:
1. I can buy it locally. (150+ miles for racing fuel)
2. 100LL is $2.13 per gallon.
3. It does not turn to gum when left unused for months.
4. It works just fine for my application.
5. It is a pretty light blue color.
6. My chain saws love it too.

I know, Pb is not a good thing, so I do burn unleaded fuel in my daily, non-recreational vehicles.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-31-2005, 09:12 AM
moparmotorman's Avatar
moparmotorman moparmotorman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: brooklyn, ny
Posts: 225
Default

How would you go about buying that tetraethyle lead? My old 413 doesn't like the premium that's available, and I had to retard the timing a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-31-2005, 12:36 PM
creative1's Avatar
creative1 creative1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pittsburg, KS
Age: 71
Posts: 461
Default

do a google or similar search for tetraethyl lead... you should be able to find several places that sell it. it is cheap and legal to buy, it is just not legal to use in a smog engine.

be warned that if you do buy some and use it, you should wear long chemical resistant gloves... TEL will absorb through the skin, and you can give yourself lead poisoning!
__________________
Where are we going?... And why am I in this hand-basket?
84 D250/440/3.54:1 dana 60/16" wheels, 31" tires/A-727trans/3" header mufflers/weighs 5000 lbs/13.22 sec @ 103+ mph.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-31-2005, 07:23 PM
toad490's Avatar
toad490 toad490 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vernon British Columbia
Age: 70
Posts: 1,148
Default

This might be of intrest, it's a chart for mixing race gas, 113 octane, with 92 octane unleaded and gives you the octane for different ratios.
http://www.klotzlube.com/support/tec...ion/ratio.html
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-01-2005, 01:37 AM
creative1's Avatar
creative1 creative1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pittsburg, KS
Age: 71
Posts: 461
Default

thanks, toad i added it to my 'perf info files' so when someone aske a question related to this info (and they will), i will be able to make an educated guess.
__________________
Where are we going?... And why am I in this hand-basket?
84 D250/440/3.54:1 dana 60/16" wheels, 31" tires/A-727trans/3" header mufflers/weighs 5000 lbs/13.22 sec @ 103+ mph.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-02-2005, 07:05 PM
Rich33 Rich33 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Fallon, Nevada
Age: 62
Posts: 314
Default

I've been running avgas in my circle track engines for 10 years. 360s at 12-1 compression (racing at 4300 feet elevation). I've heard the various reasons when this comes up:

-dry fuel, damages valves/seats
-designed for low rpms
-makes engines overheat

I tear the engines down every one to two seasons and they are fine. I don't over heat and the engines do fine spinning to 6500 rpms twice a lap. I've ran it straight without any additives and also mixed it with unleaded premium on one lower compression (10.5 - 1) engine.

I'm no chemist, but I do race on a budget. And, if the stuff was ruining my engines I wouldn't be using it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-02-2005, 10:41 PM
TK TK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: not here anymore
Posts: 8,876
Default

dry fuel hard on piston rings, i mix 100 to 1 2 stroke oil
desighned for low rpm's is a good thing, not bad
makes engines run cooler, even the airplane guys up here run lubricant in there oil, amsoil makes it, dont know what its called, marvel works good too. you should try it, it wont hurt
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-02-2005, 11:03 PM
Scatman 340's Avatar
Scatman 340 Scatman 340 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Watertown, Wisconsin
Age: 68
Posts: 126
Default

I use CD-2. One ounce per tank full.

Rock`
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-03-2005, 01:41 AM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I have 107 nights on my race engine and It has only ran on 100ll, I have on occasion dropped a few ounces of marvel in it and I really cant tell if it did anything or not. The best part about it is the fact the gas will never go bad, it must have some special additive that keeps it fresh forever. The faa doesnt want planes dropping out of the sky cuz of a gummed up motor.
I have in fact ruined a motor that I decided to spend more money buy buying a 55 gallon drum of turbo blue, That crap is horrible, and twice the price, I think I would of been better with Premium.
I just pull up to any airport to buy it, of course it has to be put in a jug.
I heard about the altitude thing and I asked a couple pilots about it and they all said they have air fuel adjustments that they make at ground and at higher elevation, they have to have em adjusted on the ground to run right too, but it is no different than tuning a carb to make it run right, there system is a little more complicated and of course expensive.

Run it, it is good stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-03-2005, 02:10 AM
pishta's Avatar
pishta pishta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Tustin, CA
Age: 55
Posts: 3,987
Default

water is cheaper...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-03-2005, 01:22 PM
bigiron's Avatar
bigiron bigiron is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Sidney, MT
Age: 67
Posts: 302
Default

Hey there Cageman...

I agree with you... I have ran 100ll in my cars for the last 3 years.. Absolutly no difference in performance whatsoever. I run it in my HEMI with 8# boost and no detonation whatsoever....

I have asked around ALOT and have been told the "dry gas" thing is a fable... NOBODY wants moisture in their fuel so thats not a bad thing. And as for lubrication, wouldn't it seem odd to take all the lubrication out of fuel that is to be ran in air cooled engines???? From my research that is fable also.

A couple things my research has told me... 100ll is VERY stable and dependable... if sealed, lasts forever. From the dyno people I have been in touch with, the same power output as equivelent race fuel. If you where to believe the people I've talked to... Detonation occurs slightly sooner with equivelant race fuel than with 100ll (has something to do with being able to handle the variation in altitudes)

My research is not very scientific, but I have talked quite a bit with people I trust and do this kind of stuff for a living... if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.

But we've had this debate a couple years ago on this board... That is what prompted me to research this further... And I doubt I am going to change anyones mind but I have over $19,000 invested in my HEMI so far and I trust 100ll to meet it's needs.

Just my opinion....
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-03-2005, 02:46 PM
toad490's Avatar
toad490 toad490 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vernon British Columbia
Age: 70
Posts: 1,148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigiron
Hey there Cageman...

....

I have asked around ALOT and have been told the "dry gas" thing is a fable... NOBODY wants moisture in their fuel so thats not a bad thing. And as for lubrication, wouldn't it seem odd to take all the lubrication out of fuel that is to be ran in air cooled engines???? From my research that is fable also.
Just my opinion....
I'm with you on this one Cageman. Oil in the combustion chamber will lower the octane of the fuel. Not much, but I have read that some engine builders claim low tension oil rings will contribute to detination, and is something they change in a engine that is right on the edge.

I think ideas like that are a left over from when leaded fuel was banned. Everybody had a idea of how to run unleaded gas. I remeber tranny fluid was supposed too "lube" the fuel system. (what ever to hell that means) You spend alot of money to keep oil out of the combustion chamber, guides, seals, rings. As soon as I build a 6 to 1 compression, air cooled engine for my Cuda, I'll start useing it.

FYI. Lead is going to be banned in Europe in aviation fuel within the next few years, and North America is expected to follow. There's a big rush to develop desiel aviation engines because of it. The first ones are in the certification stage now.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-03-2005, 03:15 PM
TK TK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: not here anymore
Posts: 8,876
Default

a little bit of lube in your gas isnt gonna hurt anything, but whatever. airplane engines are oil burners, ive never seen or heard of a piston airplane engine that didnt burn oil (been round airplanes my whole life) in fact, a radial engine fills the bottom cylinders up with oil, and you have to prop it thrue to get it out bfore starting. remember, they were desighned in the 30's and 40's. that is why its dry, they dont need the extra lube, and the last thing you wanna do is foul a plug in a airplane engine. im sure avgas will work fine without lube, maybe there is no diference, but when airplane mechanics tell me to lube it if im gonna run it, im gonna lube it. oh, the altitude thing, as you go up, your mixture gets richer. most planes have a mixture control that leans it out (you also kill the motor this way, rather than risk a backfire) again, they were thinking bout rich mixture, another reason to make it dry. and, i have ran it in snowmachines wich are very high performance 2 strokes (130hp from 700cc's) and avgas actually runs RICHER, that means the fuel is THINNER, so i add oil to my gas (50 to 1) to thicken it up so i dont have to re-jet it. can anyone give me a reason why not run a little lube in there gas?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-03-2005, 03:54 PM
Rich33 Rich33 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Fallon, Nevada
Age: 62
Posts: 314
Default

I went to an IMCA promoter's dinner a couple of years ago and happened to sit at a table with several Sunoco big wigs. The AVGAS subject came up and they thought that running it in race cars was about the worst thing in the world you could do. Big surprise coming from them

BTW, I think I'll try the 2 cycle oil mix. It cant hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-03-2005, 07:54 PM
bigiron's Avatar
bigiron bigiron is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Sidney, MT
Age: 67
Posts: 302
Default

DB 78..

When you say avgas runs richer, wouldn't that mean it would detonate later?

I have no problem with you adding a little oil to your fuel... I did it myself in the past... I was a firm believer in marvel. I really don't remember why I quit useing it. The flyboys may have different info than I have... Doesn't mean I'm wrong... Just two different viewpoints... they use their fuel differently than I do...

I am talking to machinests and dyno operators. They are the ones building and testing this stuff so I listen to them... heck they could all be wrong for all I know but who do ya trust... the people that have used it and tested it or the race fuel sales people...

I wasn't doggen ya... I was just offering the info at face value. Take it or leave it.

Now... I just have to go find my jug of QuikSilver....
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-03-2005, 08:39 PM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I heard they were trying to reformulate diesels too so sure they would probably need to mess with 100 ll too.
Big Iron, I see your from Sydney MT, Smokin Hank is from there, Know him?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-03-2005, 09:16 PM
bigiron's Avatar
bigiron bigiron is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Sidney, MT
Age: 67
Posts: 302
Default

Who doesn't know Sidney's finest circle tracker.... Best driver around... Acually I know him well enough to say hi and how ya doin'

One of my best friends was the guy that built his engines for like 6 or 7 years. Got him 5 season champs with them.... That was the Mopar days... he has went Chevy now...

Accually he's a real nice guy when not on the track.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-03-2005, 10:30 PM
toad490's Avatar
toad490 toad490 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vernon British Columbia
Age: 70
Posts: 1,148
Default

[QUOTE can anyone give me a reason why not run a little lube in there gas?[/QUOTE]
db77, only as it relates to a high compression motor and to the origanl question, "what else is done to make a high compression engine run".

was so funny .
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-03-2005, 11:20 PM
TK TK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: not here anymore
Posts: 8,876
Default

happy to amuse you
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-04-2005, 03:49 AM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I figured you would know him. He is a hell of a driver.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
High Octane, Too Hi Octane,........... Mopard Vintage MOPAR chat 26 11-18-2008 05:33 AM
octane boosters nuramman Ram Truck Chat 7 08-15-2003 12:27 PM
octane boosters 6pakman Performance Talk 6 11-18-2001 06:34 PM
Check this out! - Homebrew Gasoline Octane Boosters abalto Performance Talk 6 11-02-2001 05:13 PM
octane boosters gouge97 Ram Truck Chat 5 06-26-2000 03:29 AM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
. . . . .